Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

Buer

1. Madigan was in the squad ahead of Jackson on merit. PJ has not played well this season. Possibly because of injury, possibly because of selections around him, possibly because he's just not playing well. Madigan might not have been playing 10 for Leinster but, given his versatility and Jackson's poor performances, he pretty much gets the jersey on merit/by default.

2. Jackson is a better outhalf. When both at playing 10 and on form, there's no contest. He is a far steadier hand at 10 and guides his team more accurately.

As some have said though, it's all academic. Sexton is the man in possession and, unless it's a game against a second tier nation, he will play 80 minutes at outhalf if fit.

vienne86

Buer wrote: »

1. Madigan was in the squad ahead of Jackson on merit. PJ has not played well this season. Possibly because of injury, possibly because of selections around him, possibly because he's just not playing well. Madigan might not have been playing 10 for Leinster but, given his versatility and Jackson's poor performances, he pretty much gets the jersey on merit/by default.

2. Jackson is a better outhalf. When both at playing 10 and on form, there's no contest. He is a far steadier hand at 10 and guides his team more accurately.

As some have said though, it's all academic. Sexton is the man in possession and, unless it's a game against a second tier nation, he will play 80 minutes at outhalf if fit.

I agree completely with this. Jackson is Sexton's understudy, assuming he's on form and not injured. But given the number of injuries we have these days, it just shows that we need depth in every position.

downthemiddle

.ak wrote: »

Jackson was omitted from the squad because he was just back from an injury. QUOTE]

Nonsense. He played six games and still wasn't included in the squad. While his form last season was good he has been poor this season and playing alongside Marshall hasn't helped him.
If you are going to argue a point please try and be factual.

stephen_n

sydthebeat wrote: »

Madigan gets the 22 Jersey because he's a more versatile reserve. When sexton can't start, PJ starts, all things being equal.
If you can't see that, well, that's your issue.

If that was still the case and Madigan is only seen as a 22, why did he start at 10 against Georgia? It would have to be assumed that at the moment Madigan is the second choice 10 for Ireland. Jackson is out of form, returning from injury but is not currently our clear second choice 10 or he would have been in the squads.

.ak

downthemiddle wrote: »

.ak wrote: »

Jackson was omitted from the squad because he was just back from an injury.

Nonsense. He played six games and still wasn't included in the squad. While his form last season was good he has been poor this season and playing alongside Marshall hasn't helped him.
If you are going to argue a point please try and be factual.

What did I say that wasn't factual? I said he was just back from an injury, which is true? He's had 6 starts doesn't mean he's had a long run since being back from injury, and his form has suffered due to an injury lay off.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. All fit and firing we all know who the better 10 is, so I really don't see why Schmidt picking him means he's somehow automatically better than Gopperth. It's a silly point people are trying to make. Is Simon Zebo better than Luke Fitzgerald?

scott1974

.ak wrote: »

So Locky, Strauss and Fitzy out by the sounds of it. Fitzy sounds fecked - the word rehab was used.

No word on Kearney... was the talk of him being out for a while a bit premature??

former legend

.ak wrote: »

Is Simon Zebo better than Luke Fitzgerald?

Using him as a comparison is not going to help keep this discussion on track...

TBH I think we're a bit premature in saying that Jackson is definitely the understudy to Sexton, much the better out-half etc.

So, think back to the latter half of the 2012-13 season, it's only 18 months ago. Madigan was in great form, definitely the back-up to Sexton for Ireland and a fair number of people here were not too worried about Sexton leaving Leinster because we had Madigan. The words "Madigan" and "Lions" were appearing not infrequently in the same sentence.

12 months later, Madigan's standing had plummetted and Jackson was now the heir apparent.

Except here we are again, Jackson is now out of form (for a number of reasons), Madigan seems to be on the up (despite negligible game time at 10 this season).

My very long-winded point is that Jackson is still young but has suffered a fair amount of injuries, so that he's had very few unbroken spells of good form on which to judge him properly. Can we really say for sure that he's the real deal?

That doesn't make Madigan a better OH, but maybe the gap between him and Jackson isn't as wide as people think.

stephen_n

.ak wrote: »

What did I say that wasn't factual? I said he was just back from an injury, which is true? He's had 6 starts doesn't mean he's had a long run since being back from injury, and his form has suffered due to an injury lay off.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. All fit and firing we all know who the better 10 is, so I really don't see why Schmidt picking him means he's somehow automatically better than Gopperth. It's a silly point people are trying to make. Is Simon Zebo better than Luke Fitzgerald?

The truth is though, there's very little between Goperth and Madigan, Goperth rightly nudged ahead at the end of last season and though his performances haven't been bad this season apart from last weekend, they haven't been stellar either and certainly haven't been good enough to lock down the position. Having said that, Madigans performance against Georgia would not convince me he has improved his game management either. I just think it's very much a horses for courses choice between them.

.ak

scott1974 wrote: »

No word on Kearney... was the talk of him being out for a while a bit premature??

Well it was never confirmed. However I think he shipped a pretty bad knock to the noggin so I'd be worried if he played this weekend.

.ak

former legend wrote: »

Using him as a comparison is not going to help keep this discussion on track...

TBH I think we're a bit premature in saying that Jackson is definitely the understudy to Sexton, much the better out-half etc.

So, think back to the latter half of the 2012-13 season, it's only 18 months ago. Madigan was in great form, definitely the back-up to Sexton for Ireland and a fair number of people here were not too worried about Sexton leaving Leinster because we had Madigan. The words "Madigan" and "Lions" were appearing not infrequently in the same sentence.

12 months later, Madigan's standing had plummetted and Jackson was now the heir apparent.

Except here we are again, Jackson is now out of form (for a number of reasons), Madigan seems to be on the up (despite negligible game time at 10 this season).

My very long-winded point is that Jackson is still young but has suffered a fair amount of injuries, so that he's had very few unbroken spells of good form on which to judge him properly. Can we really say for sure that he's the real deal?

That doesn't make Madigan a better OH, but maybe the gap between him and Jackson isn't as wide as people think.

The issue is there you will never find it difficult to find a group of fans willing to overhype Mads. Like the Madigan for Lions brigade.

18 months ago he was as sharp as you like, and people were happy enough with him taking over when Sexton announced his departure. But why? Because he looked scintillating with ball in hand behind a dominant pack. Because he's a versatile player.

For me he has yet to actually impress at the in's and outs of running a backline. There is so much more to being an outhalf than kicking penalties and throwing a peach of a cut out pass. He's completely pedestrian in set piece midfield moves, he rarely gels with his 12/13 and under pressure you often see him cancelling the move.

The thing is I firmly believe he's probably the most naturally talented Irish rugby player on this island. He's just good at everything; passing, tackling, rucking, running, stepping, kicking, he's got the lot. My issue is he doesn't use those skills to bring those around him into the game. He lacks the tactical nuances that make a great 10.

Can he fix that? Absolutely. But has he? Unfortunately he's had 18 months to prove otherwise, and whilst he has addressed certain aspects of his game he still hasn't addressed the important ones.

But none of that seemingly matters. Criticize Madigan at your own peril it seems, and likewise defend Gopperth. The ironic part is there is so little between the two but you'd swear Madigan was Carlos reborn and blind ol' MOC can't see that. It's tiresome.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Well it was never confirmed. However I think he shipped a pretty bad knock to the noggin so I'd be worried if he played this weekend.

Regardless he was always going to be rested this weekend. But when he was being taken off he seemed fairly with it and was telling the lads that he was ok. Hopefully that means it wasn't a bad knock and we'll see him for the Quins games.

wise7

stephen_n wrote: »

The truth is though, there's very little between Goperth and Madigan, Goperth rightly nudged ahead at the end of last season and though his performances haven't been bad this season apart from last weekend, they haven't been stellar either and certainly haven't been good enough to lock down the position. Having said that, Madigans performance against Georgia would not convince me he has improved his game management either. I just think it's very much a horses for courses choice between them.

The common theme that comes up on numerous posts on this topic is game management at 10 and there seems to be quite a number of people saying that Madigan and Gopperth do not display a good command of this requisite of all abilities to play 10. There a a couple of young 10's in the Academy who do possess really promising game management capability. The argument against giving youth a chance is inexperience and physique. But if game management is key then maybe this should tip the balance in favour of being gutsy and at least try it even for short cameo appearances to begin with.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Regardless he was always going to be rested this weekend. But when he was being taken off he seemed fairly with it and was telling the lads that he was ok. Hopefully that means it wasn't a bad knock and we'll see him for the Quins games.

I remember watching him get up off the ground and he hadn't a clue where he was. He was on one knee looking the wrong direction just staring blankly into the north stand. I remember wincing thinking if he tried to stand up he'd keel over. I think it was a fairly bad clash of heads, especially considering as Sexton can usually take a knock and play on.

Either way hopefully he's okay and he'll be fit for the quins game.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

The issue is there you will never find it difficult to find a group of fans willing to overhype Mads. Like the Madigan for Lions brigade.

18 months ago he was as sharp as you like, and people were happy enough with him taking over when Sexton announced his departure. But why? Because he looked scintillating with ball in hand behind a dominant pack. Because he's a versatile player.

For me he has yet to actually impress at the in's and outs of running a backline. There is so much more to being an outhalf than kicking penalties and throwing a peach of a cut out pass. He's completely pedestrian in set piece midfield moves, he rarely gels with his 12/13 and under pressure you often see him cancelling the move.

The thing is I firmly believe he's probably the most naturally talented Irish rugby player on this island. He's just good at everything; passing, tackling, rucking, running, stepping, kicking, he's got the lot. My issue is he doesn't use those skills to bring those around him into the game. He lacks the tactical nuances that make a great 10.

Can he fix that? Absolutely. But has he? Unfortunately he's had 18 months to prove otherwise, and whilst he has addressed certain aspects of his game he still hasn't addressed the important ones.

But none of that seemingly matters. Criticize Madigan at your own peril it seems, and likewise defend Gopperth. The ironic part is there is so little between the two but you'd swear Madigan was Carlos reborn and blind ol' MOC can't see that. It's tiresome.

I pretty much agree with this. Madigan for me has all the skills in abundance. The one thing he's lacking is a top class rugby brain. It's why we have the Jackson/Madigan debate going on the Ireland thread right now. Jackson has a far better rugby brain and can get more out of those around him than Madigan can. Madigan on the other hand has a greater skill set. If you could combine the two we'd be laughing.

Madigan does so much well. Just look at that pass to Cave in the Georgia game where he threw the long skip out pass while moving at pace and Cave, also moving at pace, didn't need to check to receive the pass. It just went straight to his hands. It was a gorgeous pass. Those kinds of things stand out in a big way along with his line breaks etc. But go back to Jacksons debut for Ireland in 2013. A lot was made of his goal kicking that day, but how many times did he create space for guys and put them into that space? There was so much focus on the negative that day that the huge positives were all but ignored. It's that intelligence in the game that Madigan doesn't really have, or at least he doesn't have it to the same degree. And that is what is preventing him nailing down the 10 jersey, not MOC.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I remember watching him get up off the ground and he hadn't a clue where he was. He was on one knee looking the wrong direction just staring blankly into the north stand. I remember wincing thinking if he tried to stand up he'd keel over. I think it was a fairly bad clash of heads, especially considering as Sexton can usually take a knock and play on.

Either way hopefully he's okay and he'll be fit for the quins game.

Yeah immediately after he looked in real trouble. He was definitely concussed, but hopefully it just wasn't a bad one.

scott1974

.ak wrote: »

I remember watching him get up off the ground and he hadn't a clue where he was. He was on one knee looking the wrong direction just staring blankly into the north stand. I remember wincing thinking if he tried to stand up he'd keel over. I think it was a fairly bad clash of heads, especially considering as Sexton can usually take a knock and play on.

Either way hopefully he's okay and he'll be fit for the quins game.

Yeah, it's the Quins game that I hope he is o.k. for.

The Osprey's are gonna have a lot of guys missing with Wales still playing AI's, so we should win that (once we play better than last weekend)

former legend

awec wrote: »

He also suffers when he has to play beside a terrible scrum half in Marshall, and an outside back line that changes every week cause of injuries.

We really should transplant this to the Ireland thread...

But if you're using a bad scrum-half as an explanation for an out-half's poor form, could you also turn it around and say that his previous good form was due to the presence of Pienaar?

Going back to Leinster; you could take the above quote, substitute "McGrath" or "Boss" for "Marshall" and it would fit perfectly with Gopperth.

ionadnapokot

Just on the Madigan cant play 10 thing...again!
some perspective:
Sexton was 24, almost 25, in 2009 (v Munster etc)
Dan Carter was playing second-five-eight when he was 23
Matt Giteau started his career at SH and was then chopped and changed between second-five-eight and 10
Madigan is 25

To say that he wont develop into a better 10 is...well guessing. But if you look at the talent he possesses I think it fair to say he will develop into a better 10.

He has a coach who doesn't believe in him. (MO'C out)
Madigan will be a world class 10.

sydthebeat

ionadnapokot wrote: »

He has a coach who doesn't believe in him.
.

link?

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Madigan will be a world class 10.

playing behind sexton for the next 4 years???

ionadnapokot

sydthebeat wrote: »

link?



playing behind sexton for the next 4 years???

sorry I cant find a link for the above:pac:
Yea I think he will develop, and by the time he is 27-28 he will be WC
& a new coach! hopefully a better one!!

awec

The only way Madigan will become a WC 10 is if he leaves Leinster.

Clearlier

former legend wrote: »

Using him as a comparison is not going to help keep this discussion on track...

former legend wrote: »

TBH I think we're a bit premature in saying that Jackson is definitely the understudy to Sexton, much the better out-half etc.

So, think back to the latter half of the 2012-13 season, it's only 18 months ago. Madigan was in great form, definitely the back-up to Sexton for Ireland and a fair number of people here were not too worried about Sexton leaving Leinster because we had Madigan. The words "Madigan" and "Lions" were appearing not infrequently in the same sentence.

That doesn't make Madigan a better OH, but maybe the gap between him and Jackson isn't as wide as people think.

<lots of snipping above>

I disagree that Madigan was definitely the back up to Sexton for Ireland. I watched Jackson and Madigan very closely when they played against each other coming up to Christmas (if I'm honest I was looking for reasons as to why Madigan was better than Jackson) and Jackson was clearly the better player that night. Aside from place kicking (which Pienaar did) Jackson was better at managing the game, kicking out of hand and releasing his backline. At the time I thought that Madigan would continue to improve and overtake him but he plateaued in terms of his performance levels. Certainly he wasn't no.2 for Ireland as Jackson was selected to play against Scotland in the 6 nations. There was a stage where he looked like a potential lion such was his rate of progress but by the time the selection came around he wasn't even being mentioned.

The weakneses in his game are not his individual skills, they're all top drawer it's his ability to take the right option at the right time in the right place. From an Ireland point of view I think that he should stick around for one year to see if he can learn a bit more from Johnny and then he needs to go somewhere that he can play week in, week out.

awec

He's in a tough spot. I don't believe he would be picked for Ireland teams if he was playing outside of Ireland, but maybe long term it's his best option.

Ulster have no need of him, he wouldn't be the starting 10 up there and there's no point moving to play second or third fiddle elsewhere.
Munster have Hanrahan and Keatley. I think they would obviously prefer to develop JJ at 10. Again, no point moving to somewhere where you will often find yourself playing second fiddle.
Connacht he would get games, but probably at the expense of playing in big games every season.
Leinster he will be playing elsewhere unless Sexton's form falls off a cliff in his early thirties.

England or France calls. I'm sure there are teams out there who'd have him as their first choice 10. But while he's away, you'll have Jackson and Hanrahan (both three years younger than him) both coming in to the prime of their careers, both having played in Ireland and right under the noses of the IRFU.

ionadnapokot

awec wrote: »

The only way Madigan will become a WC 10 is if he leaves Leinster.

It would probably speed it up.
It will be great for Leinster though to have Madigan as back-up
Sexton will be 30 when he is back at Leinster. Leinster hopefully will be playing 30-35 games a season, I think Madigan will get plenty of game time to develop further.

molloyjh

ionadnapokot wrote: »

To say that he wont develop into a better 10 is...well guessing.

Who said that?

awec

ionadnapokot wrote: »

It would probably speed it up.
It will be great for Leinster though to have Madigan as back-up
Sexton will be 30 when he is back at Leinster. Leinster hopefully will be playing 30-35 games a season, I think Madigan will get plenty of game time to develop further.

In low risk games where it's deemed safe to rest Sexton. Hard to develop into a world class talent if you are the guy who's always being moved or dropped.

Neil3030

awec wrote: »

He's in a tough spot. I don't believe he would be picked for Ireland teams if he was playing outside of Ireland, but maybe long term it's his best option.

Ulster have no need of him, he wouldn't be the starting 10 up there and there's no point moving to play second or third fiddle elsewhere.
Munster have Hanrahan and Keatley. I think they would obviously prefer to develop JJ at 10. Again, no point moving to somewhere where you will often find yourself playing second fiddle.
Connacht he would get games, but probably at the expense of playing in big games every season.
Leinster he will be playing elsewhere unless Sexton's form falls off a cliff in his early thirties.

England or France calls. I'm sure there are teams out there who'd have him as their first choice 10. But while he's away, you'll have Jackson and Hanrahan (both three years younger than him) both coming in to the prime of their careers, both having played in Ireland and right under the noses of the IRFU.

I think Connacht is the perfect option imo. They are on the up and need a 10. He will definitely start Heino pool games there, which is about as much as he could hope for in England or France.

Marmion - Madigan - Bundee - Henshaw. That could be a very nice quartet in the middle of the field.

former legend

Clearlier wrote: »

<lots of snipping above>

I disagree that Madigan was definitely the back up to Sexton for Ireland. I watched Jackson and Madigan very closely when they played against each other coming up to Christmas (if I'm honest I was looking for reasons as to why Madigan was better than Jackson) and Jackson was clearly the better player that night. Aside from place kicking (which Pienaar did) Jackson was better at managing the game, kicking out of hand and releasing his backline. At the time I thought that Madigan would continue to improve and overtake him but he plateaued in terms of his performance levels. Certainly he wasn't no.2 for Ireland as Jackson was selected to play against Scotland in the 6 nations. There was a stage where he looked like a potential lion such was his rate of progress but by the time the selection came around he wasn't even being mentioned.

Yes but Declan Kidney. QED.

Ireland went to USA and Canada at the end of the season; Madigan started both games and Jackson didn't even make it off the bench in the first. Madigan was very much first second-choice at that stage.

Tox56

awec wrote: »

He's in a tough spot. I don't believe he would be picked for Ireland teams if he was playing outside of Ireland, but maybe long term it's his best option.

Ulster have no need of him, he wouldn't be the starting 10 up there and there's no point moving to play second or third fiddle elsewhere.
Munster have Hanrahan and Keatley. I think they would obviously prefer to develop JJ at 10. Again, no point moving to somewhere where you will often find yourself playing second fiddle.
Connacht he would get games, but probably at the expense of playing in big games every season.
Leinster he will be playing elsewhere unless Sexton's form falls off a cliff in his early thirties.

England or France calls. I'm sure there are teams out there who'd have him as their first choice 10. But while he's away, you'll have Jackson and Hanrahan (both three years younger than him) both coming in to the prime of their careers, both having played in Ireland and right under the noses of the IRFU.

You wouldn't think Connacht would regularly qualify for Europe, but they are absolutely desparate for a good/very good 10 and Madigan could be exactly what they need

Marmion
Madigan
Healy
Aki
Henshaw
Poolman
Muliaina/Leader

is a very fine backline, maybe a class back 3 player away from being one of the best in the league, and Madigans outstanding kicking alone would help them massively.

But considering he has played a lot at 10, 12 and 15 at a high level, and his kicking from the tee is top notch, you could see French teams coming in with some big offers

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

I pretty much agree with this. Madigan for me has all the skills in abundance. The one thing he's lacking is a top class rugby brain. It's why we have the Jackson/Madigan debate going on the Ireland thread right now. Jackson has a far better rugby brain and can get more out of those around him than Madigan can. Madigan on the other hand has a greater skill set. If you could combine the two we'd be laughing.

Madigan does so much well. Just look at that pass to Cave in the Georgia game where he threw the long skip out pass while moving at pace and Cave, also moving at pace, didn't need to check to receive the pass. It just went straight to his hands. It was a gorgeous pass. Those kinds of things stand out in a big way along with his line breaks etc. But go back to Jacksons debut for Ireland in 2013. A lot was made of his goal kicking that day, but how many times did he create space for guys and put them into that space? There was so much focus on the negative that day that the huge positives were all but ignored. It's that intelligence in the game that Madigan doesn't really have, or at least he doesn't have it to the same degree. And that is what is preventing him nailing down the 10 jersey, not MOC.

Sexton

molloyjh

stephen_n wrote: »

Sexton

That's exactly what I was thinking when I was writing that!

ionadnapokot

awec wrote: »

In low risk games where it's deemed safe to rest Sexton. Hard to develop into a world class talent if you are the guy who's always being moved or dropped.

Injuries, Loss of form, Old age! I think he will have to bide his time.
And even playing at 12 beside Sexton will help him when it comes to 10.

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

That's exactly what I was thinking when I was writing that!

Unfortunately you're lucky to get one like him!

None of this will of course fix's Leinsters issues next season, where Sexton is unlikely to play more than 10 games in the season and either is Madigan, the way things are going.

Neil3030

stephen_n wrote: »

Unfortunately you're lucky to get one like him!

None of this will of course fix's Leinsters issues next season, where Sexton is unlikely to play more than 10 games in the season and either is Madigan, the way things are going.

Which is why I think Leinster retaining Gopperth and Connacht taking Madigan is probably the best all round solution.

ionadnapokot

molloyjh wrote: »

Who said that?

"he's lacking is a top class rugby brain"
Its hard to get better without a brain:pac:
Madigan = Genius

wise7

Neil3030 wrote: »

Which is why I think Leinster retaining Gopperth and Connacht taking Madigan is probably the best all round solution.

Next season with the World Cup Leinster won't have Sexton and Madigan for the first 12 weeks so they will need to utilise their young talent. Relying on Gopperth or some other stop-gap import for this is a backwards step. To get young guys ready to step up means biting the bullet this season and blooding them with at least a number of off the bench appearances. Why is the Leinster 'think-tank' such a school for slow learners?

former legend

wise7 wrote: »

Next season with the World Cup Leinster won't have Sexton and Madigan for the first 12 weeks so they will need to utilise their young talent. Relying on Gopperth or some other stop-gap import for this is a backwards step. To get young guys ready to step up means biting the bullet this season and blooding them with at least a number of off the bench appearances. Why is the Leinster 'think-tank' such a school for slow learners?

The complete lack of success at Leinster in the last five years is unequivocal proof of this not-at-all-moronic statement.

errlloyd

I actually think Leinster and Munster are both bad at emerging talent. Seems ulster and contact unearth 19 year olds while our up and coming youngsters are 23.

Buer

awec wrote: »

In low risk games where it's deemed safe to rest Sexton. Hard to develop into a world class talent if you are the guy who's always being moved or dropped.

Exactly. Before last season, he started one HEC game at 10 ever and that was when Sexton was injured. That will be the case again next season.

Unless Sexton's form rapidly declines, he will be the first choice outhalf for Leinster until he's at least 33-34. If Madigan wants to develop, he needs to leave. He'll be getting even less big game time at 10 next season than he has done previously.

molloyjh

ionadnapokot wrote: »

"he's lacking is a top class rugby brain"
Its hard to get better without a brain:pac:
Madigan = Genius

Saying he doesn't have one now does not equate to saying he will never develop one.

stephen_n

former legend wrote: »

The complete lack of success at Leinster in the last five years is unequivocal proof of this not-at-all-moronic statement.

Ah yes success over rides vision everytime? Similar cases were being made about Munster towards the end of their most successful period. It's a bit like building a car to beat the land speed record and not worrying about brakes, yes it will get you there but sooner or later it will crash and burn. Your view of looking at what we have achieved and ignoring what's coming, is at best myopic, if not....

wise7

former legend wrote: »

The complete lack of success at Leinster in the last five years is unequivocal proof of this not-at-all-moronic statement.

You are totally missing my point and you can't drive for success through the rear-view mirror.

sydthebeat

wise7 wrote: »

You are totally missing my point and you can't drive for success through the rear-view mirror.

if leinster next year have 3 out halves in sexton, madigan and gopperth....

wheres the backwards thinking?

former legend

stephen_n wrote: »

Ah yes success over rides vision everytime? Similar cases were being made about Munster towards the end of their most successful period. It's a bit like building a car to beat the land speed record and not worrying about brakes, yes it will get you there but sooner or later it will crash and burn. Your view of looking at what we have achieved and ignoring what's coming, is at best myopic, if not moronic.

We have huge numbers of young, indigenous guys in the senior set-up.

Byrne, Dooley, Furlong, Marshall, Murphy, Ryan, Conan, Luke McGrath, Reid, Macken, Dave Kearney, Marsh and Mick McGrath; all home-grown, all under 25 and all in the squad last weekend.

People are just p*ssed off that Gopperth is still being picked and it's colouring their views on everything else.

Neil3030

I think Leinster were banjaxed by bad luck with injuries though. O'Malley, McKinley and Luke all had potential to be the next class, but all fell off the injury wagon (to varying degrees) at around the same time. It will take another few seasons before the next cohort are ready.

I also think the jury is still firmly out on this idea that developing young talent is by definition a good thing. I am more than happy to wait for a Sexton to peak in his mid twenties, than to see precocious talent like Luke spending more time in rehab than on the pitch by his mid twenties.

Quint2010

The debate here isn't Jackson v Madigan for Ireland. Its Gopperth v Madigan for Leinster. And for me Madigan should be Leinsters 10 for the rest of the season. Isn't Gopperth leaving at the end of the season anyway?

shuffol

Quint2010 wrote: »

The debate here isn't Jackson v Madigan for Ireland. Its Gopperth v Madigan for Leinster. And for me Madigan should be Leinsters 10 for the rest of the season. Isn't Gopperth leaving at the end of the season anyway?

Its not like Madigan will be the starting OH next season either.

sydthebeat

Quint2010 wrote: »

The debate here isn't Jackson v Madigan for Ireland. Its Gopperth v Madigan for Leinster. And for me Madigan should be Leinsters 10 for the rest of the season. Isn't Gopperth leaving at the end of the season anyway?

it mostly probably will be madigan for some of the bigger games, if we had a fully fit squad.

however prudence applied, if we have injuries at 12 madigan will probably most likely play there.

then of course, gopperth will play all the games during the 6 nations, so we will have to have cover at ten at that stage.

wise7

sydthebeat wrote: »

if leinster next year have 3 out halves in sexton, madigan and gopperth....

wheres the backwards thinking?

I can only count one OH in that least at least to the standard required for the pivotal playmaker.

Tox56

wise7 wrote: »

I can only count one OH in that least at least to the standard required for the pivotal playmaker.

There's Byrne in the academy who is very similar to Sexton in a lot of ways, and he should be breaking through at about the same time Sexton is finishing up. And there's Marsh too. Not strictly relevant but there would have been McKinley as well. We could be a lot worse off