Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

errlloyd

wise7 wrote: »

I can only count one OH in that least at least to the standard required for the pivotal playmaker.

Find me a team in Europe that has a second OH as good as Madigan or even Gopperth? I seriously can't think of any. Goosen at Racing Metro possibly? Eastmonde at Bath? Glasgow have Duncan Wier...

Edit: Okay according to wiki Toulon have Michalak, Hernandez, Sanchez and Gitaue.

former legend

errlloyd wrote: »

I actually think Leinster and Munster are both bad at emerging talent. Seems ulster and contact unearth 19 year olds while our up and coming youngsters are 23.

Just on this;

We "unearthed" Conway, threw him into the seniors at 18.
Likewise Brendan Macken, senior debut aged 18.

In hindsight, the right calls?

Re: Ulster, yes they have a lot of bright young talent coming through now. Andrew Trimble is 30, the oldest of their young backs is Luke Marshall, aged 23. Did they produce a single back of note in the intervening period? Would you swap Ulster's conveyor belt of forwards for ours? I wouldn't.

The negativity and pessimism on this thread have gone out of control.

sydthebeat

wise7 wrote: »

I can only count one OH in that least at least to the standard required for the pivotal playmaker.

well thats the crux of your issue there.....

jackson / ihump / olding(?)
keatley / jj /blyendall
carty / ronaldson / ?

sexton / madigan / gopperth



i know which selection id prefer.

and youd be hard pressed to find any premiership team with a similar average out half standard

stephen_n

former legend wrote: »

We have huge numbers of young, indigenous guys in the senior set-up.

Byrne, Dooley, Furlong, Marshall, Murphy, Ryan, Conan, Luke McGrath, Reid, Macken, Dave Kearney, Marsh and Mick McGrath; all home-grown, all under 25 and all in the squad last weekend.

People are just p*ssed off that Gopperth is still being picked and it's colouring their views on everything else.

Luke McGrath, is getting absolutely Negligible game time, despite Boss having lost any form what so ever. I'm not pissed off with Goperth and never have been but he won't be here next year and our two main 10's will be away with Ireland pretty much till November and then again for the 6N yet we have seen no game time for Marsh yet this season, even in a game when Goperth was having a mare. That's the lack of forward thinking people are discussing. There's a balance that needs to be struck and we are not doing it, which will leave us very raw next season.

Tox56

sydthebeat wrote: »

well thats the crux of your issue there.....

jackson / ihump / olding(?)
keatley / jj /blyendall
carty / ronaldson / ?

sexton / madigan / gopperth

i know which selection id prefer.

and youd be hard pressed to find any premiership team with a similar average out half standard

This is like I was saying yesterday, we have an absolutely outstanding squad and possibly the best academy in Europe. We can look at all the players we lost when compared to the golden years, but particularly with Sexton, SOB and Healy returning next year we still have a squad most teams would kill for

sydthebeat

the only reason gopperth may not be with us next year is because he would look for more game time, and be guaranteed it, at a mid level premiership club.

Its actually quite conceivable that gopperth may be reserve out half next year, with madigan eyeing up a permanent 12 position (if he really wants to stay at leinster)

wise7

stephen_n wrote: »

Luke McGrath, is getting absolutely Negligible game time, despite Boss having lost any form what so ever. I'm not pissed off with Goperth and never have been but he won't be here next year and our two main 10's will be away with Ireland pretty much till November and then again for the 6N yet we have seen no game time for Marsh yet this season, even in a game when Goperth was having a mare. That's the lack of forward thinking people are discussing. There's a balance that needs to be struck and we are not doing it, which will leave us very raw next season.

You have absolutely nailed! That is the point I have been trying to make but falling on deaf ears. It is about balance, forward planning and controlled blooding of young players.

sydthebeat

wise7 wrote: »

It is about balance, forward planning and controlled blooding of young players.

and you say that doesnt happen?

noel reid, mick mc grath, luke mc grath, ed byrne, brian byrne, tadgh furlong, jack conan, ben marshall, dom ryan, ............

former legend

stephen_n wrote: »

Luke McGrath, is getting absolutely Negligible game time, despite Boss having lost any form what so ever. I'm not pissed off with Goperth and never have been but he won't be here next year and our two main 10's will be away with Ireland pretty much till November and then again for the 6N yet we have seen no game time for Marsh yet this season, even in a game when Goperth was having a mare. That's the lack of forward thinking people are discussing. There's a balance that needs to be struck and we are not doing it, which will leave us very raw next season.

Luke McGrath has started the last two games.

And we're back to Gopperth; OK, we're 5 points up in the last ten minutes of a game in which we've struggled to do the basics well. We need to keep our heads and close it out; you've an out-half on the pitch with years of top-level experience. No coach in the world would have put Marsh on at that stage.

Paul Smeenus

former legend wrote: »

Re: Ulster, yes they have a lot of bright young talent coming through now. Andrew Trimble is 30, the oldest of their young backs is Luke Marshall, aged 23. Did they produce a single back of note in the intervening period?

What you mean by "of note"?

Darren Cave?

Ian Whitten's doing well for himself.

Nevin Spence was the heir apparent to BOD at one stage, the best young back in the country.

sydthebeat

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Ian Whitten's doing well for himself.
.

not really.....

Paul Smeenus

sydthebeat wrote: »

not really.....

Oh okay.

If you say so.

wise7

former legend wrote: »

Luke McGrath has started the last two games.

And we're back to Gopperth; OK, we're 5 points up in the last ten minutes of a game in which we've struggled to do the basics well. We need to keep our heads and close it out; you've an out-half on the pitch with years of top-level experience. No coach in the world would have put Marsh on at that stage.

and how do we expect to ever have useable options with younger players if we don't give them game time off the bench in earlier matches where we were home and dry anyway?

wise7

sydthebeat wrote: »

and you say that doesnt happen?

noel reid, mick mc grath, luke mc grath, ed byrne, brian byrne, tadgh furlong, jack conan, ben marshall, dom ryan, ............

Luke Mc Grath in a pivotal position has not been given enough game time to accelerate his development behind two 34 year olds. This discussion has been about developing strength in depth in key playmaking positions and especially where is a perceived shortcoming in the game management capability of those who are occupying the positions.

former legend

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

What you mean by "of note"?

Darren Cave?

Ian Whitten's doing well for himself.

Forgot Cave, fair enough.

Whitten, not so much.

Rigor Mortis

errlloyd wrote: »

Find me a team in Europe that has a second OH as good as Madigan or even Gopperth? I seriously can't think of any. Goosen at Racing Metro possibly? Eastmonde at Bath? Glasgow have Duncan Wier...

Edit: Okay according to wiki Toulon have Michalak, Hernandez, Sanchez and Gitaue.

Charlie Hodgson is definitely a better back up than Gopperth at Sarries

Hernandez, Michalac and Sanchez at Toulon

Delany James Lopez at Clermont

I could keep going here for quite a bit more, but i think the point is made.;)

Buer

wise7 wrote: »

Luke Mc Grath in a pivotal position has not been given enough game time to accelerate his development behind two 34 year olds. This discussion has been about developing strength in depth in key playmaking positions and especially where is a perceived shortcoming in the game management capability of those who are occupying the positions.

He's 21. He's been given 7 appearances this season and has shown in them that he's not ready for much more than what he has been getting. He got starts against Edinburgh and Treviso, precisely the games he should be getting. He'll probably wind up with about 6 or 7 starts for the season which is about right for someone of his profile and current ability.

otbrugby

Buer wrote: »

He's 21. He's been given 7 appearances this season and has shown in them that he's not ready for much more than what he has been getting. He got starts against Edinburgh and Treviso, precisely the games he should be getting. He'll probably wind up with about 6 or 7 starts for the season which is about right for someone of his profile and current ability.

agreed, hopefully he keeps improving.. scrumhalves need gametime and experience to improve.

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

and you say that doesnt happen?

noel reid, mick mc grath, luke mc grath, ed byrne, brian byrne, tadgh furlong, jack conan, ben marshall, dom ryan, ............

We're obviously clearly talking about the last 18 months.

Noel Reid - first capped 2 years before MOC got here and was developing from that time.

Mick McGrath - not exactly young, he's 24 in around 6 weeks. He has gotten his chance due to injury and for no other reason and has yet (and most likely never will) start a game.

Luke McGrath - first capped 2 years before MOC got here, a scrummie with potential that MOC actively avoided playing at the end of last season despite Reddans injury and Boss' poor form. He has fared better this season and the improvements in his game are obvious as a result.

Ed & Bryan Byrne - getting their chances this season primarily due to injuries and in fairness are taking them well.

Tadhg Furlong - was obviously trusted this season as we made no effort to bring in a new TH.

Jack Conan - really only getting his opportunity because of Heaslip being unavailable due to Ireland commitments and injuries across the back row.

Ben Marshall - first capped 3 years before MOC got here and has gotten less game time under MOC over the 18 months than he did in Joe's final season.

Dominic Ryan - first capped 3 years before MOC got here and got more starts in 2010-11 than he has done under MOC.

So in reality if you look at guys who are getting their shots because of MOC and because he feels they have earned it rather than being required due to injury:

Ed Byrne, Tadhg Furlong & maybe Jack Conan.

You could throw Fanning into that too in fairness if you wanted to ignore age, but that's it. That's hardly inspiring stuff. And it's significantly less than you are making out.

Neil3030

otbrugby wrote: »

agreed, hopefully he keeps improving.. scrumhalves need gametime and experience to improve.

And gametime with OHs. Sexton and Murray are respectively the best OH and SH in Europe and even they needed 15-20 games to get used to each other, by Sexton's own admission.

former legend

This may not go down well but Luke McGrath does not need game time or experience with out halves. He needs to be able to pass.

The Leinster coaches packed Cooney off to Connacht. What was that if not a statement of confidence in McGrath to be third choice?

His performances have been mixed at best and at no point has he demanded selection.

stephen_n

former legend wrote: »

Luke McGrath has started the last two games.

And we're back to Gopperth; OK, we're 5 points up in the last ten minutes of a game in which we've struggled to do the basics well. We need to keep our heads and close it out; you've an out-half on the pitch with years of top-level experience. No coach in the world would have put Marsh on at that stage.

So when exactly will be the right time? bearing in mind what's going to happen next season. Potentially we will be looking at Boss retired, Reddan, Madigan and Sexton with Ireland for most of the first three months of the season.

otbrugby

former legend wrote: »

This may not go down well but Luke McGrath does not need game time or experience with out halves. He needs to be able to pass.

The Leinster coaches packed Cooney off to Connacht. What was that if not a statement of confidence in McGrath to be third choice?

His performances have been mixed at best and at no point has he demanded selection.

he can pass, he will only improve with more time on the field playing rugby like any other player.

stephen_n

former legend wrote: »

This may not go down well but Luke McGrath does not need game time or experience with out halves. He needs to be able to pass.

The Leinster coaches packed Cooney off to Connacht. What was that if not a statement of confidence in McGrath to be third choice?

His performances have been mixed at best and at no point has he demanded selection.

He has more so than Boss!

.ak

His passing isn't up to standard to be selected more than he already is. He doesn't really need game time to improve that, unless it's a specific issue he has only when playing.

As Buer pointed out, he's being selected for the correct games considering his age profile.

molloyjh

former legend wrote: »

This may not go down well but Luke McGrath does not need game time or experience with out halves. He needs to be able to pass.

The Leinster coaches packed Cooney off to Connacht. What was that if not a statement of confidence in McGrath to be third choice?

His performances have been mixed at best and at no point has he demanded selection.

I thought his passing looked noticeably sharper on Sunday personally. He has potential but not form, on that we agree. And I've never advocated playing him in crunch games. He's starting to get more game time now so I'm happy enough. It was prior to the Edinburgh game this season (and particularly times at the back end of last season) that I was getting frustrated. Purely because, as I said earlier, MOC seemed to be actively avoiding playing him despite Boss' form and Reddans injury/unavailability.

This idea that he must perform in limited opportunities to demand selection ahead of an out of form player though doesn't sit well with me. On the one hand we have a 34 year old who is out of form and only going one way. On the other you have a young lad with potential but without form. I'm not saying you dump one for the other, but surely at some point the risk of playing the younger lad for an extra 10 minutes off the bench becomes worth it? The guy has only been on the pitch longer than 20 minutes 4 times in the last 18 months. He only had 4 minutes against Connacht. There's only so much he's going to learn at that rate.

Tox56

former legend wrote: »

This may not go down well but Luke McGrath does not need game time or experience with out halves. He needs to be able to pass.

The Leinster coaches packed Cooney off to Connacht. What was that if not a statement of confidence in McGrath to be third choice?

So in your view they've sent a perfectly able scrumhalf off to Connacht and replaced him as third choice 9 with someone who can't pass?!

vienne86

otbrugby wrote: »

he can pass, he will only improve with more time on the field playing rugby like any other player.

Of course he can pass. We all can. But he can't pass anything like well enough. I would have hoped that was something he could work on and improve.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

So in your view they've sent a perfectly able scrumhalf off to Connacht and replaced him as third choice 9 with someone who can't pass?!

I don't really see where he said Cooney was perfectly able?

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't really see where he said Cooney was perfectly able?

I thought that was implied by asking what else was that decision but a statement of confidence in McGrath to be third choice.

I think Cooney was perfectly able as third choice fwiw, but I prefer to see McGrath getting that gametime

otbrugby

vienne86 wrote: »

Of course he can pass. We all can. But he can't pass anything like well enough. I would have hoped that was something he could work on and improve.

he is improving it, he can only get better going forward.. he is worth investing time in..

no 21 year old is the finished product

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

I thought that was implied by asking what else was that decision but a statement of confidence in McGrath to be third choice.

I think Cooney was perfectly able as third choice fwiw, but I prefer to see McGrath getting that gametime

Given their respective standards, the fact Cooney was allowed to move elsewhere indicates the exact oppposite as far as I'm concerned. Neither are ready for first team rugby for me, and I think we should be looking elsewhere at the moment.

otbrugby

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Given their respective standards, the fact Cooney was allowed to move elsewhere indicates the exact oppposite as far as I'm concerned. Neither are ready for first team rugby for me, and I think we should be looking elsewhere at the moment.

probably not.. but players are only going to improve so much on the training ground they need time on the field, especially at scrumhalf.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Given their respective standards, the fact Cooney was allowed to move elsewhere indicates the exact oppposite as far as I'm concerned. Neither are ready for first team rugby for me, and I think we should be looking elsewhere at the moment.

That's fair enough if that's your view but I didn't know what FL was getting at was the point of my post

I think we should see where we are at come the end of the season

irishbucsfan

otbrugby wrote: »

probably not.. but players are only going to improve so much on the training ground they need time on the field, especially at scrumhalf.

Well I would actually say there is a huge amount of improvement that needs to come on the training ground before you get near the field. And I don't really have any issues with McGrath's decision making or control, which is what you're looking to improve with gametime.

ssaye2

Upgrade your seat app just released

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/12895.php#.VHdE2mfiRtQ

https://leinsterrugby.expapp.com/upgrade/desktop

vienne86

ssaye2 wrote: »

Upgrade your seat app just released

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/12895.php#.VHdE2mfiRtQ

https://leinsterrugby.expapp.com/upgrade/desktop

Might be glad of this on a wet day......North stand can be bleak. I wonder how well it will work. Might give it a go.

Big Nelly

Damn it, I wanted to bring young lad so I bought new tickets for South stand as he is not allowed into terrace, bought a new ticket for him and myself and now have 3 spare season tickets for terrace...if this was available on Monday I could have just upgraded the 3 for free

Dravokivich

Just in regards to the last comment on that press release:

There is no need to print out a new ticket; the process takes place through your mobile phone that must be displayed to a steward on match day to access your new seat.

I know they say it's not needed, but would it be an option? battery on Smart phones these days can be fairly woeful, especially for budget spec that I'd expect a lot of people had. You'd be screwed if you had no other means to show the upgrade.

Uriel.

The Android app doesn't appear to have been updated

Big Nelly

I keep getting kicked out saying website does not exist,....might be as I am on work netwrok, must try on home network

Quint2010

vienne86 wrote: »

Of course he can pass. We all can.

Not sure Macken can..

Putinovsky

Luke McGrath needs to be persisted with. Anyone remember Murray's initial games for the Irish team?

There's only one way to improve...

vienne86

Putinovsky wrote: »

Luke McGrath needs to be persisted with. Anyone remember Murray's initial games for the Irish team?

There's only one way to improve...

I think Murray was very slow when he first played for Ireland, but I don't recall problems with his passing.

sydthebeat

The main reason Murray for his break with Ireland was down to the accuracy and crispness of his pass.
The season after that he slowed down a bit and merkatted but thankfully he got that out of his system.

.ak

vienne86 wrote: »

I think Murray was very slow when he first played for Ireland, but I don't recall problems with his passing.

I think he's implying anyone can work on their weaknesses given enough game time.

However it was quite evident that Murray was a bit special - not every player dumped into the deep end will shine. I'm happy enough with McGrath's progression, given his age and limitations.

Podge_irl

Putinovsky wrote: »

Luke McGrath needs to be persisted with. Anyone remember Murray's initial games for the Irish team?

Yeah.

He should never have been there.

Tox56

Putinovsky wrote: »

Luke McGrath needs to be persisted with. Anyone remember Murray's initial games for the Irish team?

There's only one way to improve...

What exactly are you looking for? I'm chair of the Luke McG fan club and all, and I didn't agree with the way he was used at the start of the season, but he's started exactly the games I wanted him to start and looks very close to taking second choice if he isn't already there. Regular benching and a couple more starts before the end of the season would be pretty much what I'm looking for, what more do you want?

former legend

Tox56 wrote: »

That's fair enough if that's your view but I didn't know what FL was getting at was the point of my post

I think we should see where we are at come the end of the season

Yeah, I was making the point that if the coaches really had no faith in Luke McGrath, then they'd have kept Cooney and let McGrath languish as fourth choice.

I think we'll be looking for a new SH come the end of the season tbh.

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

What exactly are you looking for? I'm chair of the Luke McG fan club and all, and I didn't agree with the way he was used at the start of the season, but he's started exactly the games I wanted him to start and looks very close to taking second choice if he isn't already there. Regular benching and a couple more starts before the end of the season would be pretty much what I'm looking for, what more do you want?

As the chair of the fan club of Luke McGrath I, sir, say to you:

SPLITTER!