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How the teaching unions and the DES will conspire to force teachers into the JCSA.
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Maybe not but at least they had some educational research and backup to the proposals rather than just a ministers whim
Ruairi Quinn decided to go beyond the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment's advice on assessment but most of the Framework remained the same & was the result of educational research & consultation.0 -
Ruairi Quinn decided to go beyond the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment's advice on assessment but most of the Framework remained the same & was the result of educational research & consultation.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one, the NCCA are there for the purposes of expertise and research for the Minister if he doesn't use their information why bother with them
the differences between their proposals and Minister Quinns ideas can be seen here on page 3
http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/Nuacht_No._4.pdf0 -
There seems to be an over focus on the summative assessment part of the Junior Cycle reform proposals put forward by the NCCA & the Minister. The real change in the Towards a Framework & the Framework documents is about key skills & shifting the emphasis to assessment for learning & not primarily of learning via state exams at the end of 3rd year.0
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and what change has been made to the LC English .......this was the point the poster was responding too! The one you made about these changes to the LC!
Never mind actually. I won't be replying or posting on this thread again.
It has been completely derailed......like others before it
Those students who are the first to do JCSA English won't be entering Senior Cycle until 2017.0 -
Those students who are the first to do JCSA English won't be entering Senior Cycle until 2017.
And................??????????????????????
What changes have been talked about for the LC to align it with the new JCSA surely it would make sense to start making plans on that now and then everything will flow smoothly?
None, there is no plans in the near future to change the LC unless something drastic happens where our new minister is out to make a name for herself like our old was was only interested in doing.
The new course for Construction Studies was completed in 2007 any sign of that implementation not yet but yea change is clearly on the way0 -
Why haven't the unions asked O'Sullivan that question? Ruairí Quinn said on the This Week programme last January that the change to Junior Cycle with regard to critical thinking would work its way through to the LC and that he was working on unsatisfactory aspects of the LC.What changes have been talked about for the LC to align it with the new JCSA surely it would make sense to start making plans on that now and then everything will flow smoothly?0 -
Changes are being made to the LC.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/students-to-get-points-for-fail-grade-in-leaving-cert-revamp-30497985.html
It might have been argued that the abolition of the Primary Cert would leave pupils unprepared for second level. But it didn't. The same logic can be applied with regard to the JCSA and the LC. Ruairí Quinn said that he believed that the critical thinking associated with the JCSA would work its way through to the LC.
have a peek at educational psychology enda... critical thinking doesn't really kick in for most untill around 25.0 -
Why haven't the unions asked O'Sullivan that question? Ruairí Quinn said on the This Week programme last January that the change to Junior Cycle with regard to critical thinking would work its way through to the LC and that he was working on unsatisfactory aspects of the LC.
Because O'Sullivan is in the job a matter of weeks and I would imagine is up to her neck already in managing the current mess.
Did the almighty Ruairi happen to mention what the unsatisfactory aspects of the current LC are, or how he was working on it, all well and good to be able to say "I'm working on it" but did he actually give any concrete information.
And how is it supposed to work its way through without implementation of new curriculum across all subjects. These new curricula take a few years to write and go through the process and committees, followed by in service etc. Not to mentioned the massive amount of money it takes to implement one subject properly never mind all subjects (or the vast majority of them). So the timeline you mentioned of 2017 for this years group does not hold water in terms of changes to the LC.0 -
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Regarding the JCSA - No teacher or union could be opposed to reform and none is either.
Unfortunately Quinn was Education Minister when this JCSA was to be introduced and unfortunately for the Education sector Quinn hasn't got a clue about what constitutes an Education.
Quinn operated on one very basic contradiction - that anonymous exam marking & state certification was not required for Junior Cert students but was to be required to Leaving Certificate students. He explained this on the basis that there would be no alteration to the LC as a terminal examination as other countries like "the French still have their baccalaureate and the English still have their A Levels".
Hidden in these remarks is the basic tenet that Quinn deliberately believed (or maybe unconsciously believed) he was downgrading the Education system by removing anonymous state certification for 15 year olds.
Another Quinn contradiction was his idea that by getting rid of the state certification he was effectively helping to keep students who would otherwise drop out of school (approx 10%). He cited the old Primary cert, which was abolished in 1967, as an example . This was absurd logic. The primary cert did not have to be necessarily abolished but the rise in people staying in school had everything to do with the abolition of second level fees in the late 1960s rather than the abolition of the primary cert.
What has happened recently though is interesting - In a time of unprecedented austerity on the Education sector something remarkable happened. . . .Ireland produced an extremely impressive set of OECD PISA results (last December) in Reading, Science & Mathematics. All of these PISA examinations were taken by 15 year olds about to take the Junior Certificate in 2012. This led to articles in the UK media enquiring as to what it was Ireland was doing right.
Quinn and his ego then went on to the Easter teaching conferences to effectively rubbish the contribution of secondary teachers and their students in a bid to discredit their opposition to the JCSA teacher assessment. This showed the remarkable arrogance of an ignorant man.0 -
There's an article today in The Sunday Times entitled "Shhh... Reforms in Progress" by Seán McCárthaigh.
I am following this post with some quotes from the article and my opinions on them.0 -
Some quotes from the article in The Sunday Times:Although nobody wants to say it explicitly, the intention is to downgrade the importance of the exam itself - a decision that would seem reasonable in the context of 90% of Junior Cert students going on to sit the Leaving Certificate, and the fact that employers and third-level institutions pay so little attention to Junior Cert results.
That sentence corroborates what I've already said about the JC. Furthermore, the fact alone that there is still a terminal exam in JCSA English means that students will still be prepared for LC English. After all, it might have been said in the past that the abolition of the Primary Cert would leave pupils unprepared for secondary education but that fear, if it existed, didn't materialise. Furthermore, the number of subjects examined in the LC is smaller than in the JC.Philip Irwin, president of ASTI, has said: "I believe that the system of external assessment for state exams has protected the education system from the corruption evident in planning and other areas of Irish life. The supportive role of teachers has advocates rather than judges of their students must be maintained".
As I've already said, teachers' business with students is adversarial at some times. After all, disciplining students is the same as judging them because it's like a lawyer discrediting the opposite side's witness and a judge handing down a punishment. Therefore, Irwin's comment doesn't completely reflect the reality of the teacher-student relationship. Furthermore, the influence of the Catholic Church in Irish education means that Irish secondary teachers generally have more moral fibre than many of their counterparts in England, where religious institutions don't have influence in most secondary schools, and are thus lees likely to cave in to pressure from parents. As for those principals who might put pressure on teachers, the best thing to do is to report them to the Teaching Council. An aggrieved teacher can discuss the issue with a colleague who is a union representative in private and employment law will protect the teacher, thus allowing industrial relations procedure to take its course.Critics of the unions' stance believe the ASTI and TUI are caught in an outdated mentality of resistance to change that could undermined the genuine respect which could undermine the genuine respect which most people hold for the profession. "Ireland is probably unique in having teachers who make professional judgements by marking exams, but who are not prepared to stand over them." said one figure involved in negotiations about the new cycle".
That is a good reason for criticising the teachers' unions. The Sunday Times is much more balance than Emer O'Kelly ever has been.0 -
Some quotes from the article in The Sunday Times:
That sentence corroborates what I've already said about the JC. Furthermore, the fact alone that there is still a terminal exam in JCSA English means that students will still be prepared for LC English. After all, it might have been said in the past that the abolition of the Primary Cert would leave pupils unprepared for secondary education but that fear, if it existed, didn't materialise. Furthermore, the number of subjects examined in the LC is smaller than in the JC.
As I've already said, teachers' business with students is adversarial at some times. After all, disciplining students is the same as judging them because it's like a lawyer discrediting the opposite side's witness and a judge handing down a punishment. Therefore, Irwin's comment doesn't completely reflect the reality of the teacher-student relationship. Furthermore, the influence of the Catholic Church in Irish education means that Irish secondary teachers generally have more moral fibre than many of their counterparts in England, where religious institutions don't have influence in most secondary schools, and are thus lees likely to cave in to pressure from parents. As for those principals who might put pressure on teachers, the best thing to do is to report them to the Teaching Council. An aggrieved teacher can discuss the issue with a colleague who is a union representative in private and employment law will protect the teacher, thus allowing industrial relations procedure to take its course.
That is a good reason for criticising the teachers' unions. The Sunday Times is much more balance than Emer O'Kelly ever has been.
How many other subjects will have a terminal exam do you know?
If you have followed some threads here over the years and others on other forums you will have seen a fair amount of criticism from 'some' secondary teachers towards 'some' primary teachers. )I am not looking to get into a primary v secondary debate I'm just referencing the argument for the purposes of answering the point made above). There is a belief that pupils are not being prepared for secondary school by some primaries. Kids finishing 8 years of primary school not being able to count, add, write properly, spell or say words bigger than 3 letters. This happens, obviously there is parental responsibility but I'm just referring to the arguments that have been put forward in relation to teachers. I can guarantee you that in schools I have worked in, in the past, teachers there would not agree with you that the primary cert abolition was a good thing in terms of reaching a certain standard before moving onto secondary school.
Not sure what your point is in relation to less subjects at LC. In my opinion the one benefit to our system is the broad range of subjects that the kids get to experience or have an opportunity to experience in the Junior Cert, thus allowing them to have a good idea of what they would like to study in the LC.
You seem to have a misconception about the point of disciplining a student. It is nothing like a lawyer discrediting someone, we are not trying to discredit anyone. If a child hits another they need to be disciplined by the staff, the same as they would at home for hitting a sibling. The same in terms of doing their homework. There are rules to follow if they fail they will be punished, the same as at home if I didn't clean my room I was punished, are you saying that the same analogy you use can apply to parents in that respect?
I would suggest that your lack of knowledge of how the education system actually works in the real world today, means that your comments don't "completely reflect the reality of the teacher-student relationship."
Can I ask how you came to the conclusion that Irish teachers have a much greater moral fibre than our English counterparts? This is a very inflammatory statement in my opinion. What are you implying about non Catholic schools there in that statement?
I work in a Catholic run secondary school and the Catholic Church have absolutely no influence on my moral fibre.
Young teachers in very insecure positions will feel under pressure regardless of whether or not they are teaching in Irish, English, Catholic or non-denominational schools.
In relation to your comment about reporting a principal to the TC, I won't even bother wasting my time on that one.
Yes employment law is a fantastic protector of the rights of Irish teachers alright, just like the example of teachers who are gay, fantastic rights teachers have there. Employment law...yes0 -
How many other subjects will have a terminal exam do you know?
If you have followed some threads here over the years and others on other forums you will have seen a fair amount of criticism from 'some' secondary teachers towards 'some' primary teachers. )I am not looking to get into a primary v secondary debate I'm just referencing the argument for the purposes of answering the point made above). There is a belief that pupils are not being prepared for secondary school by some primaries. Kids finishing 8 years of primary school not being able to count, add, write properly, spell or say words bigger than 3 letters. This happens, obviously there is parental responsibility but I'm just referring to the arguments that have been put forward in relation to teachers. I can guarantee you that in schools I have worked in, in the past, teachers there would not agree with you that the primary cert abolition was a good thing in terms of reaching a certain standard before moving onto secondary school.
Not sure what your point is in relation to less subjects at LC. In my opinion the one benefit to our system is the broad range of subjects that the kids get to experience or have an opportunity to experience in the Junior Cert, thus allowing them to have a good idea of what they would like to study in the LC.
You seem to have a misconception about the point of disciplining a student. It is nothing like a lawyer discrediting someone, we are not trying to discredit anyone. If a child hits another they need to be disciplined by the staff, the same as they would at home for hitting a sibling. The same in terms of doing their homework. There are rules to follow if they fail they will be punished, the same as at home if I didn't clean my room I was punished, are you saying that the same analogy you use can apply to parents in that respect?
I would suggest that your lack of knowledge of how the education system actually works in the real world today, means that your comments don't "completely reflect the reality of the teacher-student relationship."
Can I ask how you came to the conclusion that Irish teachers have a much greater moral fibre than our English counterparts? This is a very inflammatory statement in my opinion. What are you implying about non Catholic schools there in that statement?
I work in a Catholic run secondary school and the Catholic Church have absolutely no influence on my moral fibre.
Young teachers in very insecure positions will feel under pressure regardless of whether or not they are teaching in Irish, English, Catholic or non-denominational schools.
In relation to your comment about reporting a principal to the TC, I won't even bother wasting my time on that one.
Yes employment law is a fantastic protector of the rights of Irish teachers alright, just like the example of teachers who are gay, fantastic rights teachers have there. Employment law...yes
Totally agree, I spoke to a teacher last week who taught in several Catholic Run schools in the UK ..... didn;t matter a whit about 'moral fibre'.. His head told him 'exactly' by how much the students would be improving each term... "And what if they don;t achieve those targets?" he innocently asked his Head. "Are you telling me you are planning to bring their grade down? , if they don't achieve a higher grade then there is a problem with the test and you need to get them to re-sit" he replied.
Don't forget .. in those UK schools it is the teacher's senior colleague who decides the pay and progression of the teacher.
The first step in the process is to enforce teacher assessment...
The second step is to link results to pay & career progression.
The outcome--- Huzzah! a resounding success of the new system... (who the hell cares about what is the national standard of education the students receive).
Checks and balances ???? ya right ... probably 1 inspector for 100 schools, and even then the resources will only stretch to random checks every 5 years or so.
If "employers and third-level institutions" didn;t care so much for the Junior cert then why don't "employers and third-level institutions" push for reform of the leaving cert first and foremost???
As regards reporting a parent to the teaching council !!! In a small rural community you report your neighbour (who might very well be in a position of high standing in the community!)... I think you would have better chance of calling in the A-Team to sort it out.0 -
^^^
I don't believe it - a post from Peter Flynt that I fully agree with!
I'm going to try and give a non-teacher's guide to the present JCSA mess:
1. Quinn wanted to change the JC and leave a legacy, fair enough.
2. He then ignored the advice of the NCCA on how to implement this.
3. He also ignored the fact that a similar system across the water is now being reformed with coursework being cut, teacher-assessed speaking and listening being scrapped and emphasis being put on a terminal exam.
4. English teachers were given ONE DAY'S wholly inadequate inservice. (Compare this to ten days+ inservice for Project Maths) The frustration of teachers was palpable and I have heard anecdotally that this was the case in other parts of the country.
5. The main bone of contention is assessment and the lack of information on it. The Dept. is expecting us to teach with only the bare bones of an idea of assessment, because the course was rolled out before it was ready.
6. The method of assessment is also a huge issue, it is a big change for Irish teachers to now assess their own students' work at JC level. There is no sign of a system of external moderation to ensure fairness and a national standard.
7. Without a harp on the cert, a JCSA will have more or less value depending on the school. As a teacher in a DEIS school in a big town, this would be a disaster for my school, its standing and enrolment and will put serious pressure on schools at the opposite end of the spectrum too. We do not operate separate Junior and Senior schools, of course one has an impact on the other.
8. I am not against change, I agree with taking the whole emphasis off a terminal exam. This feels like change for change's sake and it has been rolled out before it has been thought out. The Dept is doing what we cannot do - making it up as they go along.
9. It is about money. In English, the terminal exam will only be worth 60% and will consist of one paper so SEC examiners will be paid only a fraction of the current rate. The plan is then to have the terminal exam school-based, so no paying SEC examiners at all.
I am a good, experienced and enthusiastic teacher, but I have never felt so unprepared for anything in my teaching life. Every day I stand in front of 1st years unsure if what I am doing is 'right' if I should be starting a portfolio, if I need to change my plans. It is stressful, unprofessional and the whole thing is a farce.0 -
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implausible wrote: »^^^
I don't believe it - a post from Peter Flynt that I fully agree with!
I'm going to try and give a non-teacher's guide to the present JCSA mess:
1. Quinn wanted to change the JC and leave a legacy, fair enough.
2. He then ignored the advice of the NCCA on how to implement this.
3. He also ignored the fact that a similar system across the water is now being reformed with coursework being cut, teacher-assessed speaking and listening being scrapped and emphasis being put on a terminal exam.
4. English teachers were given ONE DAY'S wholly inadequate inservice. (Compare this to ten days+ inservice for Project Maths) The frustration of teachers was palpable and I have heard anecdotally that this was the case in other parts of the country.
5. The main bone of contention is assessment and the lack of information on it. The Dept. is expecting us to teach with only the bare bones of an idea of assessment, because the course was rolled out before it was ready.
6. The method of assessment is also a huge issue, it is a big change for Irish teachers to now assess their own students' work at JC level. There is no sign of a system of external moderation to ensure fairness and a national standard.
7. Without a harp on the cert, a JCSA will have more or less value depending on the school. As a teacher in a DEIS school in a big town, this would be a disaster for my school, its standing and enrolment and will put serious pressure on schools at the opposite end of the spectrum too. We do not operate separate Junior and Senior schools, of course one has an impact on the other.
8. I am not against change, I agree with taking the whole emphasis off a terminal exam. This feels like change for change's sake and it has been rolled out before it has been thought out. The Dept is doing what we cannot do - making it up as they go along.
9. It is about money. In English, the terminal exam will only be worth 60% and will consist of one paper so SEC examiners will be paid only a fraction of the current rate. The plan is then to have the terminal exam school-based, so no paying SEC examiners at all.
I am a good, experienced and enthusiastic teacher, but I have never felt so unprepared for anything in my teaching life. Every day I stand in front of 1st years unsure if what I am doing is 'right' if I should be starting a portfolio, if I need to change my plans. It is stressful, unprofessional and the whole thing is a farce.
+1 Perfect explanation0 -
What was I implying? Nothing.Can I ask how you came to the conclusion that Irish teachers have a much greater moral fibre than our English counterparts? This is a very inflammatory statement in my opinion. What are you implying about non Catholic schools there in that statement?
I mentioned that religious institutions, i.e. Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, don't have influence in most secondary schools in England. I referred to the Catholic Church because it has patronage over the majority of secondary schools in the Republic. I also have a lot of respect for the Protestant work ethic. Therefore, I wasn't being sectarian.0 -
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The Department's logo will be on the cert.implausible wrote: »Without a harp on the cert, a JCSA will have more or less value depending on the school.
http://www.education.ie/en/press-events/press-releases/2014-press-releases/pr2014-01-17.html0 -
Of course not. Teachers are not involved in their pupils' personal lives, just like doctors and nurses are not involved in their patients' personal lives.You seem to have a misconception about the point of disciplining a student. It is nothing like a lawyer discrediting someone, we are not trying to discredit anyone. If a child hits another they need to be disciplined by the staff, the same as they would at home for hitting a sibling. The same in terms of doing their homework. There are rules to follow if they fail they will be punished, the same as at home if I didn't clean my room I was punished, are you saying that the same analogy you use can apply to parents in that respect?
I'll explain my opinion.
Some students may feel aggrieved because they were demeaned for minor transgressions. I recall one case from first year in which a pupil was given a punishment essay for being rude to a teacher, who then, after the essay was done, told him to write a two-page apology before the end of the school day and told him to stop acting like a poorly-behaving toddler.
The teacher in question had only started work at the school at the start of the academic year and moved to another school after the summer holidays.
The student was upset about this. There was a similar case at primary school in which a teacher verbally disciplined a pupil, and this pupil was upset.
Overall, I have witnessed that some teachers have an attitude problem with regard to their business with pupils. I perceived that the attitude that they had towards pupils was bordering on spite. That is my honest opinion.0 -
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What was I implying? Nothing.
I mentioned that religious institutions, i.e. Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, don't have influence in most secondary schools in England. I referred to the Catholic Church because it has patronage over the majority of secondary schools in the Republic. I also have a lot of respect for the Protestant work ethic. Therefore, I wasn't being sectarian.
What is a "Protestant work ethic" ? Is it any different to the navajo native American... Do atheists have any work ethic at all>0 -
What is a "Protestant work ethic" ? Is it any different to the navajo native American... Do atheists have any work ethic at all>
Of course people of all faiths and none have work ethics but the Protestant work ethic is the most discussed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic0 -
The Department's logo will be on the cert.
http://www.education.ie/en/press-events/press-releases/2014-press-releases/pr2014-01-17.html
It's being reduced to window-dressing then. The logo will mean nothing when the Dept cannot stand over results without thorough external moderation of school-based assessment and an externally marked terminal exam.0 -
What was I implying? Nothing.
I mentioned that religious institutions, i.e. Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, don't have influence in most secondary schools in England. I referred to the Catholic Church because it has patronage over the majority of secondary schools in the Republic. I also have a lot of respect for the Protestant work ethic. Therefore, I wasn't being sectarian.
You still never answered they question of how you came to the conclusion that Irish teachers have a greater moral fibre than our English counterparts?
How about answering the questions I posed to you rather than just taking out one line and finding ridiculous links that are irrelevant to the points made.
You seem to be missing the point that we are fighting against this for the pupils benefit, this is a badly thought out rushed plan that will have far reaching consequences and once we are in we are in and there won't be any changing then, it's like the Irish Water fight, people believe they have a right to oppose it, it will be too late trying to fight it once everyone has meters.0 -
I was at an in-service a couple of weeks ago, nothing to do with the JCSA. next thing you know AFL was being rammed down my neck with an ould biddy telling me how to write learning objectives. You'd swear I didn't know what blooms taxonomy was.
Anyway, after I cooled down a bit I was thinking that the whole afl area could be used as a Trojan horse to shove in assessment under the JCSA. I'm not opposed to assessing my own students to be honest but train me and pay me and get somebody to make sure that the marks I'm giving are the same as the lad down the road.
This nonsense about being resistant to change is nonsense, just because some fella writing on the Irish times says it doesn't mean its true.
The fact is that nobody is watching and nobody will if this comes in. It will lead to one of two scenarios in my view. Either the assessment of exams will be farmed out to private companies or the state will become a pure time filler at junior cycle level. I don't care what moral fibre you have, if nobody else cares about standards its hard for the teacher to do so.0 -
Answer: the historical involvement of the Catholic Church (and the Church of Ireland, to some extent) in the running of the majority of secondary schools and the fact that they still hold patronage over those schools, even though clerics do not teach in most of them anymore. Religious organisations don't have involvement in the running of most secondary schools in England.You still never answered they question of how you came to the conclusion that Irish teachers have a greater moral fibre than our English counterparts?0 -
Answer: the historical involvement of the Catholic Church (and the Church of Ireland, to some extent) in the running of the majority of secondary schools and the fact that they still hold patronage over those schools, even though clerics do not teach in most of them anymore. Religious organisations don't have involvement in the running of most secondary schools in England.
I think you are being purposfully obtuse now so I won't persist. You know what I was asking you to explain and it wasn't that.0 -
implausible wrote: »^^^
I don't believe it - a post from Peter Flynt that I fully agree with!
I'm going to try and give a non-teacher's guide to the present JCSA mess:
1. Quinn wanted to change the JC and leave a legacy, fair enough.
2. He then ignored the advice of the NCCA on how to implement this.
3. He also ignored the fact that a similar system across the water is now being reformed with coursework being cut, teacher-assessed speaking and listening being scrapped and emphasis being put on a terminal exam.
4. English teachers were given ONE DAY'S wholly inadequate inservice. (Compare this to ten days+ inservice for Project Maths) The frustration of teachers was palpable and I have heard anecdotally that this was the case in other parts of the country.
5. The main bone of contention is assessment and the lack of information on it. The Dept. is expecting us to teach with only the bare bones of an idea of assessment, because the course was rolled out before it was ready.
6. The method of assessment is also a huge issue, it is a big change for Irish teachers to now assess their own students' work at JC level. There is no sign of a system of external moderation to ensure fairness and a national standard.
7. Without a harp on the cert, a JCSA will have more or less value depending on the school. As a teacher in a DEIS school in a big town, this would be a disaster for my school, its standing and enrolment and will put serious pressure on schools at the opposite end of the spectrum too. We do not operate separate Junior and Senior schools, of course one has an impact on the other.
8. I am not against change, I agree with taking the whole emphasis off a terminal exam. This feels like change for change's sake and it has been rolled out before it has been thought out. The Dept is doing what we cannot do - making it up as they go along.
9. It is about money. In English, the terminal exam will only be worth 60% and will consist of one paper so SEC examiners will be paid only a fraction of the current rate. The plan is then to have the terminal exam school-based, so no paying SEC examiners at all.
I am a good, experienced and enthusiastic teacher, but I have never felt so unprepared for anything in my teaching life. Every day I stand in front of 1st years unsure if what I am doing is 'right' if I should be starting a portfolio, if I need to change my plans. It is stressful, unprofessional and the whole thing is a farce.
Project maths started 5/6 years ago and they are having their 10th inservice this year which covers both junior & leaving cert maths. English is only starting this year & the 2nd inservice would have started if it wasn't for the union directives blocking members participation. The Junior Cycle website has a whole section devoted to planning & assessment of JC English with a focus on first year. The collection of texts should begin in 2nd year but it's good practice to get your students to keep a folder for their writing showing the process of planning, drafting, editing & publishing of written work.0 -
I did answer your question. My opinion is that a teacher who is religious is less likely to cave in to pressure from parents than a teacher who does not believe in God. Hence my reference to moral fibre.I think you are being purposfully obtuse now so I won't persist. You know what I was asking you to explain and it wasn't that.0 -
The article I quoted was published in The Sunday Times. There's no evidence that Seán McCárthaigh has an anti-teacher agenda.man_no_plan wrote: »This nonsense about being resistant to change is nonsense, just because some fella writing on the Irish times says it doesn't mean its true.0 -
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The article I quoted was published in The Sunday Times. There's no evidence that Seán McCárthaigh has an anti-teacher agenda.
That still doesn't make it correct, there is no evidence to say we are resistent to change our argument is not about change it is about how the change is being implemented and the theory behind the decisions surrounding it0 -
Project maths started 5/6 years ago and they are having their 10th inservice this year which covers both junior & leaving cert maths. English is only starting this year & the 2nd inservice would have started if it wasn't for the union directives blocking members participation. The Junior Cycle website has a whole section devoted to planning & assessment of JC English with a focus on first year. The collection of texts should begin in 2nd year but it's good practice to get your students to keep a folder for their writing showing the process of planning, drafting, editing & publishing of written work.
Thats all fine and dandy but the nub of the issue is assessment by teachers of their own students, and the negative consequences that will follow. How do you care to respond to those concerns?0 -
Thats all fine and dandy but the nub of the issue is assessment by teachers of their own students, and the negative consequences that will follow. How do you care to respond to those concerns?
As a parent of a child in 1st year I'm shocked at how his English teacher has given huge amounts of written work & barely assessed any of it & offered no constructive feedback. I really worry that teachers don't know how to set tasks & assess them & there obviously is a need for serious investment in upskilling teachers in assessment. I don't want his teachers to be his advocate or judge I just want them to teach him well.0 -
As a parent of a child in 1st year I'm shocked at how his English teacher has given huge amounts of written work & barely assessed any of it & offered no constructive feedback. I really worry that teachers don't know how to set tasks & assess them & there obviously is a need for serious investment in upskilling teachers in assessment. I don't want his teachers to be his advocate or judge I just want them to teach him well.
You cannot individually assess and give individual written constructive feedback to the hundreds of students that teachers teach per week.
If that is to be done then time during the working day needs to be laid aside.
Instead the DES has teachers working for nothing - supervising and substitution.
The priorities are clear.0 -
Why on earth would you think that?? :rolleyes:I did answer your question. My opinion is that a teacher who is religious is less likely to cave in to pressure from parents than a teacher who does not believe in God. Hence my reference to moral fibre.
Would religious teachers think they have God behind them and that parents who questioned them are actually questioning God himself? Would they use the stick too to make that clear to the children? Being facetious here, but this is not too far off the thinking that got us in so much trouble.
In any case, religious schools have many non-religious teachers and non-religious schools have religious teachers. How would that work out?
'Moral fibre'. Good god. I think what you may mean is that these teachers might believe more strongly in what they think. However, God and religion has nothing to do with believing in your own professional judgement. It probably works the other way round though - people who have have thought sufficiently about the world to take their own moral stance on it would prob have more moral fibre than those who just take their beliefs from others with no rigorous thought.0 -
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I did answer your question. My opinion is that a teacher who is religious is less likely to cave in to pressure from parents than a teacher who does not believe in God. Hence my reference to moral fibre.
Daft premise. Fruit n'fibre more like.
God is dead- Nietzsche
Now Nietzsche is dead - God0 -
Of course people of all faiths and none have work ethics but the Protestant work ethic is the most discussed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
Ahhh yes the most discussed..... 110 years ago by Max Weber (according to that link). We may as well get something more modern.. .say any book on the German 'work ethic' from around 1924!0 -
The article I quoted was published in The Sunday Times. There's no evidence that Seán McCárthaigh has an anti-teacher agenda.
There are some (believe it or not!) who will quote ad nauseam from supposed experts and leaders in and out of education, but never actually acknowledge the views and experiences of teachers themselves.
Couldn't that be considered an anti-teacheragendaenda?0 -
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I read the Sunday Times article.
There's nothing new in it.
In the end the ASTI/TUI will cave in along the lines on which I've suggested.
They'll try and buy us off by giving us back a small proportion of our own money (maybe a reduction in the pension levy) . . . and then through student assessment into Croke Park 3.0 -
Project maths started 5/6 years ago and they are having their 10th inservice this year which covers both junior & leaving cert maths. English is only starting this year & the 2nd inservice would have started if it wasn't for the union directives blocking members participation. The Junior Cycle website has a whole section devoted to planning & assessment of JC English with a focus on first year. The collection of texts should begin in 2nd year but it's good practice to get your students to keep a folder for their writing showing the process of planning, drafting, editing & publishing of written work.
I referenced Project Maths because of the amount of inservice received compared to JC English. What I did not refer to was the fact that PM is being phased in strand by strand and it was extensively piloted before introduction. JC English is a wholescale change and we were given one inservice which was wholly inadequate and basically a demonstration of a few 'new' techniques. There was no reference to assessment at all. The Dept expects us to hit the ground running and figure it out later. Any second inservice should have been before the course started.
The absolute minimum you'd expect when introducing a new course is that its content and assessment have been finalised. This is being made up as we go along. It simply isn't ready. If the Dept was serious about change, they would have designed its implementation more professionally and thoroughly.
I am aware of the website and have been through it but there really is no substitute for face-to-face professional inservice.
They have cocked this up, rolled out a programme that wasn't ready and are now insistent on shoving it through, despite the reservations of teachers, their unions, parents and now the JMB.0 -
There are some (believe it or not!) who will quote ad nauseam from supposed experts and leaders in and out of education, but never actually acknowledge the views and experiences of teachers themselves.
Couldn't that be considered an anti-teacheragendaenda?
When Ruairí Quinn was asked by an Oireachtas committee last May if he regarded teachers as experts, he said:
“Yes, I do. But they’re not the only experts, and not every teacher has a PhD in educational research... The level of expertise depends very much on a pedagogical skills they have acquired along the way and that varies”.“And it varies much more in the secondary post primary space than it does with primary school teachers because the primary school teacher has gone in to be a teacher from day one. Not every post primary teacher wanted to be a teacher on day one when they went to university... There is a difference.”0 -
It makes sense to start reform on the JC first. Otherwise, if it was just the LC that was being changed, students who had done JC exams in 12 or 13 subjects under the current system would find themselves in a different exam system and ask themselves: "What the hell did we go through that series of exams in the JC for?".If "employers and third-level institutions" didn;t care so much for the Junior cert then why don't "employers and third-level institutions" push for reform of the leaving cert first and foremost???0 -
The irony of minister Quinn referring to listening to experts.
You know we have a least discussed this point a few pages back where I linked the document to show where mr Quinn completely disregarded his own experts. The board that are there for one reason only to implement and oversee curriculum. Yet he didn't listen to a word they say. We can all go ask enough experts until we find the ones that will say what we want them to say.
The one group responsible the ncca. THE experts he won't listen to.
I just can't wait for the next irrelevant quote or link instead of actually debating a point0 -
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As a parent of a child in 1st year I'm shocked at how his English teacher has given huge amounts of written work & barely assessed any of it & offered no constructive feedback. I really worry that teachers don't know how to set tasks & assess them & there obviously is a need for serious investment in upskilling teachers in assessment. I don't want his teachers to be his advocate or judge I just want them to teach him well.
You'd be far more shocked if you actually witnessed the real extent of teacher demoralisation and burn out in schools throughout Ireland,most likely including the school your son attends.
You obviously don't have the remotest idea about the unsustainable workload of teachers in certain subject areas,English being one.
So,as an English teacher,allow me to enlighten you. I have 30 in first year English,of mixed ability,mixed background,cultures and varying educational needs about which they are quite demanding and vocal. I do my best to give individual attention but written work is corrected and general feedback is given in class.Only way it can be done nowadays. I then have another 30 in second year,but at least the class is streamed and for this last year,most likely, I can do my usual texts, which is an enormous help.Fast forward to third year,another bunch of 30 and as an exam year, work has to be taken up very regularly and individual feedback given. On we go to senior cycle,to 5th year,with,you've guessed it,30 in the class. Here, the average length of assignments are 5-7 A4 pages and because this is the LC course, such assignments multiplied by 30 have to be taken up regularly and graded with individual feedback.Add to that the fact that every year approx 40% of the course changes completely. For example, new poets will appear and new literary texts for comparative study,which the teacher will have to research from scratch and I'd actually be afraid to quantify the number of hours all that entails.And that is every year!! On to 6th year, where the show continues and is much more frenetic,with copious amounts of assignments being taken up. On top of that I also teach French, all the way up to LC and add in all the extra pointless hours which I must do as part of Haddington Road. Thankfully, I was able to take a pay cut instead of having to do the compulsory S&S. And I don't say the word "thankfully" lightly after two previous cuts and the other hair shirts of the recession.But it was either that or my health!
So,perhaps now you might see more clearly why your son's teacher can't manage individual feedback to first years. And if you want teachers to teach well,you might be better off venting your shock and indignation at the real culprits the DES and the current Government rather than pontificate about teacher assessment,a thing teachers have always managed well in smaller numbers. Because if parents don't start supporting their children's teachers against the architects of the destruction of the education system,believe me things will get a hell of a lot worse.0 -
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You seem to think that the present education minister and her predecessor don't have a conscience. Government ministers get things wrong but that doesn't mean that they don't care about ordinary people's welfare.Because if parents don't start supporting their children's teachers against the architects of the destruction of the education system,believe me things will get a hell of a lot worse.
There's no need to be apocalyptic.0 -
You can ask the Minister what's going on via Twitter tonight, if you like;
http://www.seomraranga.com/2014/09/topics-for-minister-for-education-on-edchatie/0 -
You'd be far more shocked if you actually witnessed the real extent of teacher demoralisation and burn out in schools throughout Ireland,most likely including the school your son attends.
You obviously don't have the remotest idea about the unsustainable workload of teachers in certain subject areas,English being one.
So,as an English teacher,allow me to enlighten you. I have 30 in first year English,of mixed ability,mixed background,cultures and varying educational needs about which they are quite demanding and vocal. I do my best to give individual attention but written work is corrected and general feedback is given in class.Only way it can be done nowadays. I then have another 30 in second year,but at least the class is streamed and for this last year,most likely, I can do my usual texts, which is an enormous help.Fast forward to third year,another bunch of 30 and as an exam year, work has to be taken up very regularly and individual feedback given. On we go to senior cycle,to 5th year,with,you've guessed it,30 in the class. Here, the average length of assignments are 5-7 A4 pages and because this is the LC course, such assignments multiplied by 30 have to be taken up regularly and graded with individual feedback.Add to that the fact that every year approx 40% of the course changes completely. For example, new poets will appear and new literary texts for comparative study,which the teacher will have to research from scratch and I'd actually be afraid to quantify the number of hours all that entails.And that is every year!! On to 6th year, where the show continues and is much more frenetic,with copious amounts of assignments being taken up. On top of that I also teach French, all the way up to LC and add in all the extra pointless hours which I must do as part of Haddington Road. Thankfully, I was able to take a pay cut instead of having to do the compulsory S&S. And I don't say the word "thankfully" lightly after two previous cuts and the other hair shirts of the recession.But it was either that or my health!
So,perhaps now you might see more clearly why your son's teacher can't manage individual feedback to first years. And if you want teachers to teach well,you might be better off venting your shock and indignation at the real culprits the DES and the current Government rather than pontificate about teacher assessment,a thing teachers have always managed well in smaller numbers. Because if parents don't start supporting their children's teachers against the architects of the destruction of the education system,believe me things will get a hell of a lot worse.
I appreciate your response but perhaps my issues lie directly with my son's English teacher as there are only 21 in his class & he persists in giving reams of written homework which he doesn't assess. I can't see the purpose of giving written homework to first years if it's not properly scaffolded & formatively assessed. I have no doubt English teachers are often swamped with copies etc but the focus surely must be on improving their writing & not simply churning out assignments.0 -
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