Breast Feeding - Not all that it's cracked up to be

clare82

lynski wrote: »

Sorry but just no. 'Best' like it is a question? Or not true? Breastfeeding is not 'best' it is the normal way to feed an infant human. Formula is an alternative, inferior way. This is not about guilt or patting on the back, it is simply the truth.
OP your breastfeeding journey may it may not be over, only you know. There are two things I have said to friends and family who have experienced tough times bf: breastfeeding problems have breastfeeding solutions and never quit in a bad day.
Nipple shields are an excellent idea in the short term, laid back nursing helps many moms, and does not mean laying down, use some of your own milk on your nipples after nursing to heal and have your child reassessed for tongue tie, there might be a secondary one or sometimes they can reattach.
I would be happy to help with research or questions on pm.

+1 on the above.
Give it a bit more time op. Yes it's v hard at the start and 8 weeks is a long time to suffer but you've come so far....After about 12 or 14 weeks bfing becomes much easier and by about 16 weeks you'll wonder why anyone would ever bother with bottles. Can you go back to the tongue tie doc? Just to check it worked?
Any chance of seeing a different lactation consultant?
Is there a la leche league or Cuidiu meet up group in your area?
Also breast shells are great to help with healing

lynski

newtoboards wrote: »

Although I agree with the sentiment of the message in that happy parents will help have happy baby I think that it may be lost in the way it has been delivered by you. I do not pat myself on the back for breastfeeding and I doubt any others do too; this was not done for me but my son and I knew what I was getting into because I researched in advance. I wish that a true reflection of how exhausting and sometimes painful Breastfeeding is would be given to first time mums.

I agree it can be exhausting, but having a newborn is regardless of feeding method. the painful bit is a myth that is put out there and pain is not normal in breastfeeding, if mothers got that message more would demand support earlier and solve problems earlier.
breastfeeding should not be painful, it is not a mother-martyring exercise. If there is pain there is a problem. The problems are usually solvable. Formula is not always the answer, it has its place but not for all.

For the OP only you can decide now how you want to progress and also know that your decision is not permanent, if you decide to formula feed now you can change you mind later. Fix your challenges and heal and look after yourself.

OT: I am not getting into a some mad debate about mother guilt or what is best. There are facts and there are opinion, WHO, AAP, All medical opinion worldwide agree on one thing about breastfeeding and that is that it is the normal food for babies and that formula is an inferior alternative - I will not apologise to anyone for that word. I am not judging anyone I am stating facts.

Jerrica

Breastfeeding *is* normal, that's an irrefutable truth. What is sorely lacking in Ireland is the support that mums need to breastfeed successfully.

80% of babies in the UK are breastfed.
98% of babies in Scandinavia are breastfed.
56% of Irish babies are breastfed.

Irish boobs are not inferior to Swedish or Danish boobs, our support services are. For every problem that causes an Irish woman to give up, there is a solution that she is not provided with.

Formula is inferior in that it does not provide the immunological protection that breastmilk does, it does not change in real-time to suit babies needs like breastmilk does, it doesn't have the same nutritional profile that breastmilk does. BUT if the support isn't there and breastfeeding is having such a detrimental effect on a woman's well being that all of breastmilks benefits are being greatly outweighed then formula is the obvious and sensible alternative.

The blame shouldn't be placed on mums here, it should be on the shoxking lack of support and inadequate provision of information regarding breastfeeding and how to deal with the quite normal but difficult challenges it poses.

lynski

indigo twist wrote: »

My experience isn't exceptional.

Even if breastfeeding worked fine for the first few days on my next child, I'd very likely still decide to switch to formula after the first week.

Some of the best mothers I know decided to use formula from the very first feed. It is a perfectly adequate alternative to breastfeeding, and no one should be made feel that by using formula rather than breastmilk that their child is receiving "inferior" food. I think it was a very poor choice of language on your part. Whether a mother chooses to use formula, or whether she ends up using formula through no choice of her own, the baby's nutritional needs are being met perfectly well. We're very lucky that the alternative of using formula is available to us.

Your experience is exceptional - *most* babies worldwide can nurse successfully and do not need NICU care and yes we are lucky to have an alternative when it is needed, but it is the fifth choice on the recommended list from WHO not the second (expressed milk, wet-nursing and donor milk come first FYI)
Again I am not judging and am not expressing a personal opinion on anyones choices.
The OP asked for help with a breastfeeding problem and I am answering that.

lynski

Giving up wrote: »

When I was pregnant I said "if I can breast feed, great! If I can't, so be it". I'm now 8 weeks in, and it's not the "best thing ever".
From day 1 I've suffered. Cracked nipples, to mastitis, to abscess. Then Found out was tongue tied. Got it sorted but it didn't immediately sort the problem. He can latch perfectly during the day to one nipple. The other one is just to damaged.
At night, he is so aggressive that he has now damaged both sides.
I've seen the lactation consultant twice and started osteopathy with my little man. I've asked for support on facebook groups. Some have been amazing while one, yeah mention formula or giving up, you are the worse person in the world and they make you feel so guilty.
Has anyone else had a bad time breast feeding and given up? I'm just not happy I cry every night feeding my little man coz of the pain. You shouldn't be in pain!

You should not be in pain, not at all. now, this minute, lie down, get someone to make you a cup of tea. if you feel up to it, get yourself supported to about a 45degree angle and expose your breasts to your baby, put him/her in the middle and allow him/her to latch on. They will hopefully just need a little support and guidence from you, while latched on express a little milk from the other nipple and rub it around the nipple while exposed. then repeat.
This should give you a deep latch and good transfer, if not then let me know on here or on pm and I will research your local LLL group for you while you sleep later. this is an excellent article that answers all the questions re biological or laidback nursing. apologies for the pdf link but it is very detailed.
http://www.biologicalnurturing.com/assets/articles/Colson%202007%20non%20prescriptive%20recipe%20for%20BF.pdf


[I ws going to suggest expressing or a bottle, but as you said they cant manage it, I had the same with my last one and he has a high palete.
Hang in there.

This is turning into a BREASTFEED AT ALL COSTS thread, which is not what the OP needs. We all agree that it is best, but please, let each of us decide for ourselves whether to breast feed OR use some of the very good formulas available. Support the individual, not the ideal.

Wabbit Ears

I dunno if it was mentioned but renting a medical grade breast pump is a fantastic thing to do. Our first wouldn't latch on but we wanted to give her breast milk. The commercial pumps are nowhere near as good to the medical grade ones, They do work but one breast at a time, With the Rented one you can do both at the same time and therefore can have two feeds ready for night in the same time!!

we rented one from prices medical off merrion square, https://www.google.ie/maps/place/5+R118,+Dublin/@53.3410292,-6.2503929,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x48670e90d4375363:0x23f4c86606cbe847

Its pretty expensive, I think 90quid but that includes all the bits N bobs but its was so worth it!!

lolademmers

Oh god I remember the pain from cracked bleeding nipples. That haunts me more than labour pains and I had no epidural!! I got to 6 bf weeks with my son and looking back I am thrilled I got that far but at the time the guilt was overwhelming.
If I had another I hope to bf longer. But aaagghhhh the pain!!!!

LegacyUser

Giving up wrote: »

When I was pregnant I said "if I can breast feed, great! If I can't, so be it". I'm now 8 weeks in, and it's not the "best thing ever".
From day 1 I've suffered. Cracked nipples, to mastitis, to abscess. Then Found out was tongue tied. Got it sorted but it didn't immediately sort the problem. He can latch perfectly during the day to one nipple. The other one is just to damaged.
At night, he is so aggressive that he has now damaged both sides.
I've seen the lactation consultant twice and started osteopathy with my little man. I've asked for support on facebook groups. Some have been amazing while one, yeah mention formula or giving up, you are the worse person in the world and they make you feel so guilty.
Has anyone else had a bad time breast feeding and given up? I'm just not happy I cry every night feeding my little man coz of the pain. You shouldn't be in pain!

Op what ever forum, social media site you go on asking for advice you will have people on your side and you'll have others telling you to suck it up and continue. My colleague in work has two kids, first one was no problem breast feeding 2nd one refused to latch on, so she had to express from day 1 in order to give her breast milk. Mastitis abscess, cracked nipples!! That's a lot of bother and pain on you in order to feed your baby. Your own health is important too.

lynski

Deleted User wrote: »

This is turning into a BREASTFEED AT ALL COSTS thread, which is not what the OP needs. We all agree that it is best, but please, let each of us decide for ourselves whether to breast feed OR use some of the very good formulas available. Support the individual, not the ideal.

it is not at all costs the OP has said bottle feeding is difficult for her child also, so alternatives to bottlefeeding must be considered and offering solutions to breastfeeding is not at all costs.

lynski

lolademmers wrote: »

Oh god I remember the pain from cracked bleeding nipples. That haunts me more than labour pains and I had no epidural!! I got to 6 bf weeks with my son and looking back I am thrilled I got that far but at the time the guilt was overwhelming.
If I had another I hope to bf longer. But aaagghhhh the pain!!!!

Next time arm yourself with LLL numbers and cuidiu and PHN numbers and accept not other responses except the pain means there is a problem. The pain from the first day means there is a problem. It might be as simple as positioning or as complex as milk transfer but do not accept from anyone that you should expect or accept it.

Merkin

Sorry but I totally stand by what I said and apologies if my delivery offended people. I do think some people make martyrs of themselves when breast feeding and Id like to point out that this is not directed at you OP but I believe some women do. I saw a thread recently on another forum where a girl is breast feeding and is spending her days in tears because of it and one has to ask oneself for what purpose? Genuinely? Surely this is affecting her enjoyment of her child if she is spending the time weeping? And why make a martyr of oneself if it is such an ordeal?

Jerrica

Let's not portray formula as a magic elixir either, it doesn't guarantee "no tears or freak out or stress", all of which are entirely normal parts of motherhood no matter what kind of feeding you choose. I've had all three and I'm fairly confident I'm a damn good mum. Formula babies have significantly higher incidences of reflux, colic, and respiratory distress.

There are breastfeeding martyrs, just as there's formula mums who use bottles for all the wrong reasons. Both are extremes, but let's not use those extremes as measures to judge everyone with.

lynski

Great merkin! We are in agreement. No martyrs here please.
I am following guidelines to solve the *breastfeeding* challenges; formula is not the first thing and in this case may not even be applicable.
There are children who can't bottle feed - I have one.

Merkin

I never suggested it was a magic elixir. If feeding is causing tears, freak outs and stress on a sustained basis because of it however then sometimes it would be wise to review it. To reiterate, happy Mummy happy baby and what works (really works) for one may not for another.

Typer Monkey

Jerrica wrote: »

There are breastfeeding martyrs, just as there's formula mums who use bottles for all the wrong reasons. Both are extremes, but let's not use those extremes as measures to judge everyone with.

Just out of curiosity what are 'all the wrong reasons' for bottle feeding?

lynski

I am going to question if that is a discussion we need to have here? Op needs support and the whys and what's are not going to do that.

Jerrica

Typer Monkey wrote: »

Just out of curiosity what are 'all the wrong reasons' for bottle feeding?

I've had a friend use formula so that - in her words - she can start drinking and get her social life back on track as soon as the baby is born. That, to me, is not a particularly strong reason to choose formula over breastfeeding. It's an extreme though, and I wouldn't think it's particularly common.

Merkin

Jerrica wrote: »

I've had a friend use formula so that - in her words - she can start drinking and get her social life back on track as soon as the baby is born. That, to me, is not a particularly strong reason to choose formula over breastfeeding. It's an extreme though, and I wouldn't think it's particularly common.

Wow

lynski

And here we go.

indigo twist

On the other hand, I have an acquaintance who has her drinking and smoking and social life WELL back on track since baby was born - but breastfeeds because it's free. And she's constantly on about how "breastmilk is best" etc ... in her case, I'd argue that formula would be best.

Lynski the OP didn't ask for support to continue breastfeeding. I got the impression she was open to all opinions, so I think it's only fair that we can all share our own experiences and advice - even if they're not encouraging breastfeeding at all costs.

lynski

but the op has said the child has a problem with bottle feeding also.
and you are under another misconception about drinking and breastfeeding. If you are ok to drive you are ok to bf. about 1 hr per drink. the danger of bf and drinking are the same as ff and drinking - dont hold a baby while drunk, dont sleep with a baby while drunk actually just dont be with a baby while drunk. nothing to do with feeding.

GatsbyGal

Honestly Op if you can't do it don't force yourself. I did it for five months and like you ended up in the hospital twice with mastitis, staph infection and subsequently an abscess... The worst pain imaginable ever was that abscess. With my second I tried bf'ing again and same symptoms started again so just stopped immediately and went straight to formula. The best decision ever.... Mentally, physically better for me and in turn had a happier baby. No difference at all in both children as regards illnesses. Both very healthy thank God.

iguana

indigo twist wrote: »

On the other hand, I have an acquaintance who has her drinking and smoking and social life WELL back on track since baby was born - but breastfeeds because it's free. And she's constantly on about how "breastmilk is best" etc ... in her case, I'd argue that formula would be best.

Actually, as counter-intuitive as it seems, the science shows that so little alcohol gets into breastmilk that there is not really a problem with drinking and breastfeeding. It's not like drinking in pregnancy where the alcohol crosses the placenta. The only problems with drinking and breastfeeding are the same ones that exist with drinking and formula feeding, ie no co-sleeping if you've drank anything and if you are tipsy it's best to have someone sober take care of the baby.

As for smoking, the science is new, but any studies done show that if a mother smokes, the baby needs breastmilk more than ever to help counteract the toxins s/he is breathing in. The toxins from the cigarettes are passed to the baby from the secondhand smoke if the mother smokes around the baby and even if she doesn't the fumes from her skin and clothes can pose a health risk to the baby. They don't pass from the breastmilk, so as this baby's health is already compromised by the second and/or thirdhand smoke, s/he receives some protections from the mother's milk but none from formula.

So factually, a baby who's mother drinks a lot and smokes is exposed to numerous obvious risks to his/her health and well-being. But if that baby is formula fed as well, the risks are heightened rather than lessened.

Sligo1

iguana wrote: »

Actually, as counter-intuitive as it seems, the science shows that so little alcohol gets into breastmilk that there is not really a problem with drinking and breastfeeding. It's not like drinking in pregnancy where the alcohol crosses the placenta. The only problems with drinking and breastfeeding are the same ones that exist with drinking and formula feeding, ie no co-sleeping if you've drank anything and if you are tipsy it's best to have someone sober take care of the baby.

As for smoking, the science is new, but any studies done show that if a mother smokes, the baby needs breastmilk more than ever to help counteract the toxins s/he is breathing in. The toxins from the cigarettes are passed to the baby from the secondhand smoke if the mother smokes around the baby and even if she doesn't the fumes from her skin and clothes can pose a health risk to the baby. They don't pass from the breastmilk, so as this baby's health is already compromised by the second and/or thirdhand smoke, s/he receives some protections from the mother's milk but none from formula.

So factually, a baby who's mother drinks a lot and smokes is exposed to numerous obvious risks to his/her health and well-being. But if that baby is formula fed as well, the risks are heightened rather than lessened.

That's really interesting iguana! I've only drank twice since baby was born and went mad expressing the few days before because I thought we had to wait two hours after each drink before baby fed? So if I had 5 drinks I couldn't feed baby for 10 hours? Do u have a link? Would be fab the next time I go out if I could feed her in the morning... Obviously if I'm not still tipsy that is

And yes, the smoking is more regarding the baby breathing in the smoke and not so much that it passes through the breastmilk.

lynski

http://kellymom.com/bf/can-i-breastfeed/lifestyle/alcohol/

In general, if you are sober enough to drive, you are sober enough to breastfeed. Less than 2% of the alcohol consumed by the mother reaches her blood and milk. Alcohol peaks in mom’s blood and milk approximately 1/2-1 hour after drinking (but there is considerable variation from person to person, depending upon how much food was eaten in the same time period, mom’s body weight and percentage of body fat, etc.). Alcohol does not accumulate in breastmilk, but leaves the milk as it leaves the blood; so when your blood alcohol levels are back down, so are your milk alcohol levels.

Always keep in mind the baby’s age when considering the effect of alcohol. A newborn has a very immature liver, so minute amounts of alcohol would be more of a burden. Up until around 3 months of age, infants detoxify alcohol at around half the rate of an adult. An older baby or toddler can metabolize the alcohol more quickly.

LegacyUser

Well, I stopped breast feeding. At the 5am feed saturday, it just got to much. The pain was to much (it was worse then labour) and my little man cried and cried coz he just couldn't latch with & without shields.

My baby has been breast feed for 8.5 weeks. He is now on formula and you know what, he is happier. My friend gave me a tommee tippie bottle and he loves it. And, you know what, i'm not as tired, getting more then an hour and a half sleep a night. I can also feed myself which I wasn't as I was to tired. I've dropped over a stone in weight & just wasn't happy in myself.

If I ever have another baby i might try again, as you all said, every child is different. But I won't & don't feel guilty over stopping. I've done all I can to breast feed, but it just wasn't working out.

Formula isn't the worst thing ever, it has its purpose. Both my little man & myself are much happier since saturday. Out of three of us (me & my two friends) only one of us succeeded in Breast feeding. Myself & the other girl have struggled day in & out and have now stopped.

And just to clarify, i'm not a drinker so I didn't stop so I could drink and head out galavanting.

bp

Giving Up wrote: »

Well, I stopped breast feeding. At the 5am feed saturday, it just got to much. The pain was to much (it was worse then labour) and my little man cried and cried coz he just couldn't latch with & without shields.

My baby has been breast feed for 8.5 weeks. He is now on formula and you know what, he is happier. My friend gave me a tommee tippie bottle and he loves it. And, you know what, i'm not as tired, getting more then an hour and a half sleep a night. I can also feed myself which I wasn't as I was to tired. I've dropped over a stone in weight & just wasn't happy in myself.

If I ever have another baby i might try again, as you all said, every child is different. But I won't & don't feel guilty over stopping. I've done all I can to breast feed, but it just wasn't working out.

Formula isn't the worst thing ever, it has its purpose. Both my little man & myself are much happier since saturday. Out of three of us (me & my two friends) only one of us succeeded in Breast feeding. Myself & the other girl have struggled day in & out and have now stopped.

And just to clarify, i'm not a drinker so I didn't stop so I could drink and head out galavanting.

I am glad you are getting some rest and feeling better :-)

monflat

Good on you op.

Enjoy your baby now and hope you feel better soon.

lynski

Good on you for making a considered choice. You have time to heal now. Should you feel differently in a week or so it is possible to relactate. In the meantime the advice on getting his Tt reassessed stands it is not just about the nursing but can have implications for speech also. Hth