If the UK asked Ireland to rejoin the Union, how would you vote?

jank

Karl Stein wrote: »

Lol at exalting the Germans and British. The British went from pre-eminent global super power to IMF bailout (1976) in a matter of decades.

German hyperinflation anyone?

Yet, when the Germans put their minds to it they normally achieve it. They fell short of world domination but they have at the moment one of the strongest economies in the world today, built on a world ethic, frugality, conservative free market economics and practicality that would put us to shame. You honestly think that joining the EU has had no bearing on Ireland as a nation? As I mentioned Ireland from 1921 to 1978 was a failure in its socialist idealistic isolationist concept. Joining the EEC is what saved the country. Which then begs a wider question. Why the need to have a membership of a union to save the country when have pseudo nostalgic views about leaving another union via the use of force? Maybe we could have saved ourselves 60 years of poverty if we stayed within the original union.

Fratton Fred

No to reject rejoining the Union

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I'm just going to post this to let you know I wont' be posting to you again. Your nothing but a wind up merchant & I'm not going to fall for your tricks.

Are you having difficulty coming up with the actual piece of international law that makes this country illegal?

DarkyHughes

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'd rather cut my testicles off than rejoin the UK. They can fcuk off. Lost complete respect for the Scottish too. Cowards. The next Scot that comes up to me in a kilt and bangs on about Braveheart or some other such rubbish......well sh1ts gonna go down. Spineless useless clowns

You can't be angry with the Scots for nothing voting Yes, you can be angry with them for their crimes committed here however.
One of the founding members of the SNP lead an anti-Irish campaign against the flow of Irish immigrants coming to Scotland saying they were destroying the "Scottish race". It wasn't an English Empire that colonized the world it was a Scottish & English Empire. The reason there is a British state is because Scotland wanted to get in on the colonizing act, because their lone colonizing ventures didn't work out so well. They weren't forced into a Union like Ireland.

SpaceTime

The thing is that ALL EU countries turned their back on isolationist policies by joining together.
They all engaged in vicious and pointless wars some of which would make our independence wars look like a walk in the park.

Europe was an incredibly stupid continent that killed millions and forced millions more to move to the new world to escape it.

Ireland's far from unique in that regard. All EU members moved on and sought a new, open, interconnected future while still retaining national identities and doing things on the basis of consent and cooperation not domination.

There's nothing unique about a history of violent nationalism in Europe.

I wouldn't hold ANY European nation up as an example of perfection, especially not ones with a history of aggressive behaviour like Germany. Britain, France, Spain, Belgium, Portugal etc etc even Denmark was a colonial power throwing ita weight around as was Sweden. Finland was a Russian colony then a Swedish one then a Russian one and so on. Norway was run by Sweden etc.

Europe all has the same rotten history.

DarkyHughes

The Golden Miller wrote: »

67 people need to be reefed up to the Wicklow mountains and given a good kicking

Now that part I do agree with, Except for Fratton Fred you shouldn't take him too seriously.

jank

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well firstly the UK hasn't been an awful lot more successful than we have in the last 40 years. Both countries attain broadly similar standards of living and Ireland actually surpasses the UK on quite a few matrixes, even after the recession.

The post WWII period here was grim and there was a conservative theocratic power grab in the middle 20th century which only ended in the 80s really.

That being said, Britain wasn't all liberal, fun and games in the 50s and 60s either. They managed to arrest and basically torture gay people including famous war heros like Alan Turing who was basically driven to suicide and only got a posthumous apology a couple of years ago.

Modern Ireland and Modern Britain are much nicer, much more humane and open places than they've never been at any stage in history.

Also Britain had huge emigration to the "colonies" like Canada and Australia in particular during the 20th century but they don't tend to classify it as a national tragedy like we do.
Roughly 154,000 Britons emigrate every year actually giving it one of the highest emigration rates in Europe.

I agree with a lot of this yet Irelands progress has all been made by membership of the EU, something most people forget. The UK are also members of the EU, so we are in some ways already in a Union with the UK and when it comes to the crunch they have had our back on numerous issues when we were parked under the bus by the French or Germans. The only reason this is not recognised for what it is, is the Irish way of thinking that only the UK can be self interested in their own affairs and that other european nations are egalitarian, fairer, alturistic and so forth. That myth is now put to bed thankfully but people need to be aware of it.

jank

porsche959 wrote: »

You are not telling the whole story here. We received massive subsidies from Europe in the 1980s and 1990s.



Not quite sure what you mean here. Tactically, it often makes sense for us to ally ourselves with Britain within the EU on some issues, on others not so much.

What issue has Ireland disagreed with the UK and we have had the backing of other EU nations? Honestly, tell us as I would love to hear this one.

DarkyHughes

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Absolute NO.


Those voting yes in here are traitors and dangerous to the Republic.

The Republic is already in danger it's in exile what we have is a Free State.
A lot of Irish people still have slave-minds.

conorh91

Are some British (or specifically, English) people completely deluded?

All I've heard from English people, over the past few weeks, is relation to Ireland, is what a mess independence has been.

Can they really believe this?

Sure, back in the Edwardian era or in the mid-twentieth century, most of the world was a dark and ugly place to live. But Ireland consistently ranks amongst the countries of the world with the highest quality of life, and we report as some of the happiest people in the world, much higher than Britain, or even the USA.

Ireland, Canada, New Zealand and Australia are countries that always rank better than our former coloniser in these studies.

Are the English deluded? And are the Scots a bit stupid?

I can't understand why any rational Irish person (or Canadian, Aussie, or Kiwi) would want to go back there.

SpaceTime

Then French had our backs on lots of agriculture issues over the years too.

Your allies vary depending on the topic being discussed.

In some cases we've been very aligned with smaller countries like the Nordic members and Holland too.

In the economic crisis Spain often had out back and the French argued strongly against German cuts and austerity.

Christine Lagarde arguably had a better sense of the Irish situation than Merkel ever has had!

When it comes to tax dodging, the British, the Dutch, the Luxembourgers and possibly the Belgians are our friends.

Agriculture policy, social solidarity and countering German fiscal austerity - France. They'd also probably back us in most arguments where the British are out to get us.

And the Germans seem to have a slight soft spot for our cultural stuff and think we're a lot more sensible than we might actually be are kind of cool .. Music, major bands, international cultural icons, speak English natively etc etc. And also they relate to our love of beer, bacon and cabbage .... so, perhaps don't underestimate the soft power. A lot of Germans aren't all that organised and efficient btw and they've a notion that we've efficiently fixed the economy without any major fuss. Perception from far away is very different to here.

Buona Fortuna

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'd rather cut my testicles off than rejoin the UK. They can fcuk off. Lost complete respect for the Scottish too. Cowards. The next Scot that comes up to me in a kilt and bangs on about Braveheart or some other such rubbish......well sh1ts gonna go down. Spineless useless clowns

That's a definite no then?:eek:

Buona Fortuna

The Golden Miller wrote: »

67 people need to be reefed up to the Wicklow mountains and given a good kicking

Do you mean a kneecapping?:eek:

DarkyHughes

SpaceTime wrote: »

The thing is that ALL EU countries turned their back on isolationist policies by joining together.
They all engaged in vicious and pointless wars some of which would make our independence wars look like a walk in the park.

Europe was an incredibly stupid continent that killed millions and forced millions more to move to the new world to escape it.

Ireland's far from unique in that regard. All EU members moved on and sought a new, open, interconnected future while still retaining national identities and doing things on the basis of consent and cooperation not domination.

There's nothing unique about a history of violent nationalism in Europe.

I wouldn't hold ANY European nation up as an example of perfection, especially not ones with a history of aggressive behaviour like Germany. Britain, France, Spain, Belgium, Portugal etc etc even Denmark was a colonial power throwing ita weight around as was Sweden. Finland was a Russian colony then a Swedish one then a Russian one and so on. Norway was run by Sweden etc.

Europe all has the same rotten history.

Europe is the world's capital of many crimes.

Other than all those wars we started there's also slavery & colonizing & nearly wiping out entire people, in North & South America, Africa & Australia, the Ottaman Empire was a good thing for the Middle East as it protected it from us barbarians until WW1 & sh!ts been kicking off there ever since then thanks violent Europeans. The Asians & Japanese in particular have been at as well tho not sure if they were as bad as us.

Jawgap

Karl Stein wrote: »

You said the concept of a nation came about in the early 19th Century.



That's demonstrably wrong. This is going off topic so let's drop it.

I said 'construct' - not 'concept' - it would really help if you read what was written not what you wish was written.

Anyway, do you have any other relevant sources other than Wikipedia?

Because you keep saying I'm wrong and even 'demonstrably' wrong - so you should be able to demonstrate as much rather than just offer an unsubstantiated opinion, red herrings and unrelated documents?

Colinf1212

Jawgap wrote: »

EDIT: as for the spying, people can't be surprised that the Brits spy on us can they? Anyway in terms of monitoring out communications I'd say our good friends the Americans with that nice Offaly-man in charge and that nice Roscommon man in the CIA are way ahead in the spying on Irish citizens game.

No the British leak said the Irish need to look to Britain as people that spies on them not Americans. It was in direct response to a question about Americans spying on Irish citizens. Funny you should mention that.

DarkyHughes

conorh91 wrote: »

Are some British (or specifically, English) people completely deluded?

All I've heard from English people, over the past few weeks, is relation to Ireland, is what a mess independence has been.

Can they really believe this?

Sure, back in the Edwardian era or in the mid-twentieth century, most of the world was a dark and ugly place to live. But Ireland consistently ranks amongst the countries of the world with the highest quality of life, and we report as some of the happiest people in the world, much higher than Britain, or even the USA.

Ireland, Canada, New Zealand and Australia are countries that always rank better than our former coloniser in these studies.

Are the English deluded? And are the Scots a bit stupid?

I can't understand why any rational Irish person (or Canadian, Aussie, or Kiwi) would want to go back there.

That's because we don't live under British rule anymore.

But people in South Armagh are very unhappy, except for Slabs he can easily avoid arrest for illegal activity in the South by simply walking out the back door & can avoid arrest in the north by simply walking out the front door. (his house is right on the border line) He'd probably be a bit p!ssed off if his border went.

Jawgap

Colinf1212 wrote: »

No the British leak said the Irish need to look to Britain as people that spies on them not Americans. It was in direct response to a question about Americans spying on Irish citizens. Funny you should mention that.

Yes, as I said is anyone surprised that we're spied on by the British? I'd be more surprised if we weren't!

SpaceTime

That's precisely why the Kerry accent was developed!

Dionysius2

No to reject rejoining the Union

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I don't have to name one that wasn't because they all were.

Taking what didn't belong to them and killing anyone who got in their way.

Just as the caucasians did in the good old USA. Round up the natives, shoot a few of them, imprison a few of them and put the rest on reservations because they have a difficulty in living by white standards. Make them obey white laws and force them to accept white conditions because that's good for them.

"The only good Inj......is a d..d 'un.......Jay Wayne never did apologise for the denigration of the noble people of the North American continent.....now did he ? "

But hey, that's all OK now 'cos time, the great healer has intervened !

DarkyHughes

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I can't while my government is in exile.

Irish Republicanism is the oldest & greatest political ideology on this island. It's been in the blood of young idealist from Belfast since the first shots of the French Revolution rang out in 1789 225 years ago.

A world of inherited privilege transformed into a society of the free, were reason overwhelms prejudice & everyone born in the state starts of with the same chances & opportunities no matter what their background is & bigotry of all sorts & sectarian violence is confined to the dustbin.

Yes, Irish Republicanism is the best thing since a cup of tea

But we should also remember all the brave British people who stuck their necks out for the Republican cause, like Tony Benn & Ken Livingstone who was nearly executed by the UDA/DUP for his support for Sinn fein & a United Ireland. And George Galloway who was denounced by the Brit media establishment for meeting with Republican leaders just to try & get a ceasefire & try to convince the Republicans the gun was getting them nowhere. Yes, we've had many British people who helped us with our liberation struggle.

And although the Provos didn't reach the ultimate goal they did make life 100 times better for nationalists living in the North so better in fact some aren't to fuss about leaving.

snowstorm445

FTA69 wrote: »

Honestly like, these threads always bemuse the f*ck out of me. It's mad that after years of attempted suppression of the concept of an Irish nation and a long and hard struggle for independence; people still retain this bizarre filial attachment to a former colonial power. Frantz Fanon wrote a lot about this phenomenon, namely the belief that the former colonised people were conditioned to believe they were fundamentally inept and could only be better served by union or subservience to a colonial entity.

Ireland has problems. Massive structural ones that go to the heart of the state here. If the state is to serve the ordinary people of Ireland as opposed to an elite or well-connected political and economic class then it indeed needs systematic reform. However, the onus to achieve that change lies with us, the Irish people themselves; acting in their own interests and on their own behalf on their own steam. The average person in Ireland isn't going to be best served in the long run by subsuming itself into a monarchist state which is myopically governed from a mega city in the south east of England.

People can dress this b*llocks about rejoining the UK/Commonwealth etc as being "mature" or "pragmatic" all they want, the fact remains it's the same cringing, unimaginative nonsense it always was. Irish history was always littered with these sort of idiots, unfortunately they seem to be making a come back these days.

This. We've been an independent state for nine decades at this stage, longer than many of our European neighbours. And yet many in Ireland still regard our independence as a sort of experiment, a temporary thing that should ultimately be done away with at some stage.

As you say, whilst many proponents of rejoining the UK regard this step as "maturity", such a mindset exhibits a strong degree of immaturity in its own right, an idea that we are incapable of governing ourselves as a nation and that we need to be watched over by an outside force. And with that bizarre believe comes a weird utopian vision of Ireland where everything is provided for and all our problems will evaporate after our "regrettable" period of walkabout (which of course overlooks the fact that Ireland historically under the Union was quite a backward, impoverished place).

Yes, there are many cultural bonds between these two islands, but the time for political union is finished. We are a nation in our own right. Our independence has by no means been perfect, but we have benefitted from it ultimately. Moreover, whilst I respect Scotland's ultimate decision on its relationship with Britain, I think we should be proud of the fact that we as a nation were at least willing, if not able to initially, to stand on our own two feet.

agentcalm

Yes and I'll tell you why. The max salary in Leinster house would be about 80 grand not 150. They would not have their 50 grand state pensions. British politicians are on a fraction of what our dirt bags get.
we would not have VRT on cars (or at least it would be half what it is). No universal social charge. I would not be paying 700 euro a year road tax. And VAT would be nowhere near 23%.
Give me standard of living any day over a flag or anthem. the reason so many people get the hell out of Ireland is not because they cant get jobs here, they simply enjoy a better standard of living elsewhere.

I'm not totally against the whole idea of a Union with the Brits because it could have been useful in terms of trade, infrastructure and job creation and i suppose we are in a form of Union when you consider we're both in the EU. In modern day i wouldn't be completely against it so long as we were an equal partner (a Federal system/devolution) and to be fair id say modern British politicians are not as imperial as their past counterparts. Federal systems do have their advantages but as the Soviet Union amongst many others proved, there is not always harmony.

Like any relationship when you get into bed, you don't want the other half taking all of the sheets. For years we were expected to sleep on the floor while the Brits up took all of the king size. Nowadays i suppose we'd still have to thread carefully.

WesternZulu

agentcalm wrote: »

Yes and I'll tell you why. The max salary in Leinster house would be about 80 grand not 150. They would not have their 50 grand state pensions. British politicians are on a fraction of what our dirt bags get.
we would not have VRT on cars (or at least it would be half what it is). No universal social charge. I would not be paying 700 euro a year road tax. And VAT would be nowhere near 23%.
Give me standard of living any day over a flag or anthem. the reason so many people get the hell out of Ireland is not because they cant get jobs here, they simply enjoy a better standard of living elsewhere.

Actually Ireland has a higher standard of living:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

So you're basically talking sh*t

Karl Stein

agentcalm wrote: »

Give me standard of living any day over a flag or anthem.

You should move to Saudi Arabia.

Skylinehead

jank wrote: »

Maybe we could have saved ourselves 60 years of poverty if we stayed within the original union.

I'm not sure why you're equating being a member of the EU and effectively being a colony of the British Empire as we were, there's absolutely no comparison to be made. And when we left, was it all fine and dandy? Of course not.

Jawgap

WesternZulu wrote: »

Actually Ireland has a higher standard of living:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

So you're basically talking sh*t

Actually the HDI only uses 4 indices and is regularly criticised for its narrow focus - it does however include most countries. If it was broader based it would exclude those countries lacking a means to gather accurate national statistics.

The OECD's BLI is a better index - broader based in that uses more than just statistical data. It ranks the UK ahead of Ireland.

The Wikipedia article on it isn't very good (probably why you didn't find it) so here's a link to the actual index - feel free to play around with it and re prioritise the data to your own preferences......

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org

Have fun

EDIT: Justin Wolfers of Freakonomics - criticism of the HDI - http://freakonomics.com/2009/05/22/what-does-the-human-development-index-measure/

SaveOurLyric

Careful folks. Mods get stroppy when you ask that question here.
Safer to take it to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1410

Greenmachine

Not a chance.

Notorious97

No, not a chance id vote yes and thankfully cannot see many ever voting yes to such a question.

Im glad some of the people on boards were not around during our war of independance, might never have achieved freedom!

Karl Stein

Fratton Fred wrote: »

---

I'm interested in why you would vote yes.

Why would you vote for Ireland to rejoin the 'Union'?

Notorious97

Notorious97 wrote: »

No, not a chance id vote yes and thankfully cannot see many ever voting yes to such a question.

Im glad some of the people on boards were not around during our war of independance, might never have achieved freedom!

Times have changed though so for me it would depend on the terms of the agreement. The world is a different place today it goes without saying really and both Britain and Ireland are different places. So long as Ireland's culture is respected and we would have the power to determine what occurs within our island then i would have no problem in forming Economic ties with Britain and even political unions on certain policies (banking and infrastructure to name two)

You talk about the importance of Freedom which is fair enough, but you conveniently forget that our sovereignty was practically out of our hands in 2010 and it was greatly the fault of our own elected members who left our banks to their own devices whilst exhausting the resources available to us in the European Central bank. Independence hasn't exactly been the land of milk and honey either. We fought against bastards but id be confident that today we would be forming a union with people who respect us and who in fairness stood by us in our hour of need. Im not saying jump straight into Union but at the very least be open to Uniting on certain policies. If it was on equal terms then I wouldn't be too dismissive of it.

mikeym

No to reject rejoining the Union

Maybe yes lol.

Rich people are getting richer. People on benefits want everything for nothing and the people that go to work get shafted in taxes.


Dont get me started on immigration control because we let everyone in.

Fratton Fred

No to reject rejoining the Union

Karl Stein wrote: »

I'm interested in why you would vote yes.

Why would you vote for Ireland to rejoin the 'Union'?

Why not. I live here, I'm entitled to have an opinion.

Notorious97

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Times have changed though so for me it would depend on the terms of the agreement. The world is a different place today it goes without saying really and both Britain and Ireland are different places. So long as Ireland's culture is respected and we would have the power to determine what occurs within our island then i would have no problem in forming Economic ties with Britain and even political unions on certain policies (banking and infrastructure to name two)

You talk about the importance of Freedom which is fair enough, but you conveniently forget that our sovereignty was practically out of our hands in 2010 and it was greatly the fault of our own elected members who left our banks to their own devices whilst exhausting the resources available to us in the European Central bank. Independence hasn't exactly been the land of milk and honey either. We fought against bastards but id be confident that today we would be forming a union with people who respect us and who in fairness stood by us in our hour of need. Im not saying jump straight into Union but at the very least be open to Uniting on certain policies. If it was on equal terms then I wouldn't be too dismissive of it.

I have no problems at all with economic links to the uk or any country, or indeed having good relations with the uk, i certainly do not want to see anything like the troubles return, i am glad those days are in the past and hopefully stay there.

However i do not see why ireland cannot remain an independant nation trading with other countries, the notion of rejoining a union does not appeal to me in the slightest!

Yes we elected as a nation a bunch of eejits in the last few years, but at least ireland is free to learn (christ hopefully!) from its mistakes, and that is why i would vote to not rejoin the uk, we are already in one union and thats enough.

Bafucin

OP assumes they would want us.

I would vote no...no going back now.


We are all in the EU anyway.

Karl Stein

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why not. I live here, I'm entitled to have an opinion.

Why would you vote yes for Ireland to return to the 'Union'?

Notorious97

Notorious97 wrote: »

I have no problems at all with economic links to the uk or any country, or indeed having good relations with the uk, i certainly do not want to see anything like the troubles return, i am glad those days are in the past and hopefully stay there.

However i do not see why ireland cannot remain an independant nation trading with other countries, the notion of rejoining a union does not appeal to me in the slightest!

Yes we elected as a nation a bunch of eejits in the last few years, but at least ireland is free to learn (christ hopefully!) from its mistakes, and that is why i would vote to not rejoin the uk, we are already in one union and thats enough.

Yeah but what about a Devolved or Federal system? I think both ourselves and the UK could adopt certain common policies but i would agree with many in that im not sure id like the idea of a king/queen being head of state not that i agree with our presidents role here either.

moxin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why not. I live here, I'm entitled to have an opinion.

Have you integrated as an Irishman yet?

Pwindedd

Ahem, question. I'm assuming the current population of over 64 million people currently living in the UK are also entitled to vote in this non existent and hypothetical ballot yes?

Dirty Dingus McGee

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah but what about a Devolved or Federal system? I think both ourselves and the UK could adopt certain common policies but i would agree with many in that im not sure id like the idea of a king/queen being head of state not that i agree with our presidents role here either.

What would be the point of that.It would certainly not be an improvement on the current situation and in such a situation we would end up being dominated by England anyway and effectively be back where we were prior to independence just with a supposed niceness to it.

Relations between Ireland and the UK are better than they ever were just leave things as they are.

Just because the 2 countries may have some similarities doesn't mean we should have some form of union with them.I doubt people from Switzerland and Austria want to create a union with Germany.

Karl Stein

moxin wrote: »

Have you integrated as an Irishman yet?

It's odd. Afaia the largest number of immigrants to Ireland in recent years was English people and you wouldn't even know it because they assimilate so well.

Fratton Fred (correct me if I'm wrong) is an English immigrant to Ireland who would vote for Ireland to return to the 'union'.

I'm interested in why he'd vote against Irish independence from Britain.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

What would be the point of that.It would certainly not be an improvement on the current situation and in such a situation we would end up being dominated by England anyway and effectively be back where we were prior to independence just with a supposed niceness to it.

Relations between Ireland and the UK are better than they ever were just leave things as they are.

Just because the 2 countries may have some similarities doesn't mean we should have some form of union with them.I doubt people from Switzerland and Austria want to create a union with Germany.

Fair points.

Fratton Fred

No to reject rejoining the Union

Karl Stein wrote: »

Why would you vote yes for Ireland to return to the 'Union'?

Because Ireland fails to provide its citizens and residents with a decent functional healthcare system.

I've had a close relative go through the healthcare system here and whilst it is staffed by incredibly hard working and dedicated people, it is a shambles.

The sheer fact of a state run health insurance company is a reflection of that.

Fratton Fred

No to reject rejoining the Union

moxin wrote: »

Have you integrated as an Irishman yet?

What is that supposed to mean?

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Because Ireland fails to provide its citizens and residents with a decent functional healthcare system..

I agree but are the NHS really that far ahead Fratton?

moxin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What is that supposed to mean?

From your past posts over the years, you immigrated here from England. So as the question asks, do you intend to integrate and become an Irish citizen?

Karl Stein

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Because Ireland fails to provide its citizens and residents with a decent functional healthcare system.

Really?

According to businessinsider.com Ireland ranks 19th and the UK ranks 18th in best healthcare systems.

Do you think Irish people are incapable of improving our healthcare system so we should give up our hard won independence and return to British rule?

Really?

Skylinehead

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree but are the NHS really that far ahead Fratton?

Not enough to be the sole reason to rejoin the union. There's more than just that at stake. Plus the NHS, while great, does have its fair share of horror stories.

enfant terrible

Grayson wrote: »

If we didn't elect so many of them it would be a start. We have far too many TD's.

Should of got rid of the Seanad when we had the chance.

Hope they are working hard for their big salaries.