The Official Ryder Cup 2014 Thread - No betting talk

cack_handed

rrpc wrote: »

Although Phil seems to come out of this smelling better than Watson, I'd be inclined to the view that there seemed to have been a major clash of egos in the US camp. I doubt it was as late as Saturday night either, the indications seem to suggest that Phil wanted to be (and seemed to have been) involved in decisions as early as Friday.

I'm not sure any team can survive that kind of dynamic.

I tend to agree with you here, I dont think we learned anything much from the reported events of Saturday night. The die was already cast by then and a real post mortem of the US performance would have to back months before when the tone of the entire enterprise was set

And for what it's worth, I think Watson's apology is a fairly dignified way to bring the curtain down on what was an unhappy experience for all

Rikand

rrpc wrote: »

Although Phil seems to come out of this smelling better than Watson, I'd be inclined to the view that there seemed to have been a major clash of egos in the US camp. I doubt it was as late as Saturday night either, the indications seem to suggest that Phil wanted to be (and seemed to have been) involved in decisions as early as Friday.

I'm not sure any team can survive that kind of dynamic.

Man Management

if you have an ego like Phil, then as a manager, you give him the 'impression' that he#s being involved in the decision making process.

Watson failed in this regard and thus ultimately failed as team captain

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

Man Management

if you have an ego like Phil, then as a manager, you give him the 'impression' that he#s being involved in the decision making process.

Watson failed in this regard and thus ultimately failed as team captain

I think this is totally unfair, on Phil.
He is the most senior player on the team, ignoring his insight when he is far closer to the players than the captain is silly.
I'll bet Paul was getting opinions and advice from the senior players on the EU team.

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

I think this is totally unfair, on Phil.
He is the most senior player on the team, ignoring his insight when he is far closer to the players than the captain is silly.
I'll bet Paul was getting opinions and advice from the senior players on the EU team.

Maybe a little unfair on Phil, but Ultimately Watson wanted to do his own thing. If he had no intention of listening to Phil he should have at least pretended to listen to him to give him his voice and keep Phil happy

Since you've brought Paul into this

Graeme McDowell was telling Paul that he wanted to play more than 3 matches, but Paul got him into a discussion, showed him his vision for the team and got him involved in the decision making process, which ultimately was Paul's own decision.

Paul managed GMac.

Watson failed to manage Phil.


How I know that about Paul and Gmac - Gmac said as much in his post singles match victory over Spieth. A brilliant piece of Man-management from Paul, it has to be said!

Rikand

Actually, for any interview scripts you need, this is brilliant. I hadn't seen it before.

http://www.rydercup.com/europe/news/interview-transcripts

And below, two of the interview scripts from Gmac, one pre-singles match and post match

http://www.asaptext.com/pga/media/rydercup_2014/transcripts/graeme_mcdowell_2014_09_28_12_26.pdf

http://www.asaptext.com/pga/media/rydercup_2014/transcripts/graeme_mcdowell_2014_09_28_16_16.pdf

I actually attributed the comment above to his post singles match interview, it was actually his pre singles match interview, but the point still stands

rrpc

Rikand wrote: »

Maybe a little unfair on Phil, but Ultimately Watson wanted to do his own thing. If he had no intention of listening to Phil he should have at least pretended to listen to him to give him his voice and keep Phil happy

Since you've brought Paul into this

Graeme McDowell was telling Paul that he wanted to play more than 3 matches, but Paul got him into a discussion, showed him his vision for the team and got him involved in the decision making process, which ultimately was Paul's own decision.

Paul managed GMac.

Watson failed to manage Phil.


How I know that about Paul and Gmac - Gmac said as much in his post singles match victory over Spieth. A brilliant piece of Man-management from Paul, it has to be said!

The difference is that Watson was never going to be the kind of captain McGinley was. In fact that's apparently what the USPGA wanted and was a reaction to Davis Love's management style being considered to have 'been too close to the players'.

I think Watson did listen to Phil on Friday and played him in the foursomes when (according to Spieth and others) the plan was to play the best fourballs in the foursomes; which would have excluded Phil.

Once the decision making became blurred like that, it was only a matter of time before it all blew up. The fault is with both Watson and Mickelson imo, but primarily it lies with the USPGA for picking Watson in the first place. They seemed to learn nothing from the way Europe had made these decisions over the previous ten years and that's where it ultimately failed. Watson was too out of touch with the USA team, the Ryder Cup and the opposition.

cack_handed

Enjoyed this bit from Dermot Gilleece piece in indo yesterday on Phil goofing at the 1991 Walker Cup:


While describing a particularly wayward drive into rough during his 4 and 3 singles win over Andrew Coltart, he told ESPN: "That's not a place I wanted to be. The Irish women are not that attractive." In other words, getting close to female spectators at the fairway ropes wouldn't compensate for being buried in rough.

Remarkably, it led to something of a diplomatic incident, with irate phone calls to the Irish Consulate in New York. They, in turn, contacted USGA headquarters in New Jersey, demanding an apology. Which Mickelson was only too happy to provide, saying contritely: "I'm sorry. It was meant in jest."


And people say political correctness is a modern phenomenon!

TrapperChamonix

What I find interesting is that no one picked up on the fact that Watson and his VC's wore different kit to the US Players during the Opening ceremony and again (I think) at the closing. I noticed it at the time and could immediately see it as an obvious distancing the Captain from the team. It was "Old School". It was a statement that, I'm not your buddy, I'm not your friend. I'm your commander.
The whole premise of the appointment of Watson was that in the 2 previous US Ryder Cups, the players had more sympathetic Captains, Captains who where more in touch / in tune with the players, who sought feedback and communicated well to the team members. But ultimately these teams lost. Not by much but they lost.
So the PGA took a punt. They went with Watson on the basis that he would manage them exactly as he did. As Trip Eisenhour (Golf Channel) says, Watson did exactly what he expected him to do. He called out players for non performing and put pressure on others to perform. He used a form of management that's not that uncommon in US collegiate football. Goading players and putting pressure on them in the hope / belief that it would spark a reaction / a fightback. It did not work.
Ultimately Watson comes out of this badly (though I think he was right about be appalled that they were presenting him with a Ryder Cup replica while they were still fighting for the real thing) but the issue remains the US players. Even in the midst of all this on Saturday night, they were texting their chosen allies (Rosenfort etc) in the press, WHILE the match was still on.

For all the Pod systems and investing in the process etc, the thing Azinger did get right was to use the POD system to isolate Phil and Tiger from each other. Cause that's the real elephant in the room as to why the US have done so badly over the last 10 years.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/rydercup/11122135/Ryder-Cup-opening-ceremony-was-a-mercifully-brief-affair-and-for-that-we-say-Thank-you.html

markie4

Tiger was injured/resting in 2008 and Azinger was lucky to be against a Faldo led team

TrapperChamonix

markie4 wrote: »

Tiger was injured/resting in 2008 and Azinger was lucky to be against a Faldo led team

My Bad.