Water Charges and PPS No.s required

Shedite27

raspberrypi67 wrote: »

Regarding the question of PPS no and 'what harm it could do', well its one step closer to identity theft. Remember the all the incidents of laptops being left around with crucial information like this.

I don't buy that. People put more valuable info on their facebook for the world to see. This is just people's latest way of objecting to water chages.

whavin

Gene Kerrigan's article may have been put across as a rant but he still the nail on the head with a lot of points. Your pps should only be needed to verify allowances to households and then should therefore be disregarded once this has been assessed. Irish Water will share your pps with any 3rd party that has an interest in buying the company or whom they do business with i.e. their suppliers. The fact Irish Water has managed the whole thing so badly from the get go, there isn't a hope of me handing over those details. I haven't been metered and will have to pay a flat fee for it either way, I'll fore go the allowance of 30,000 ltrs and pay the extra €150/year until things become a little clearer. €12.50 extra a month is not going to get them my personal details and sold to the highest bidder or done with as they see fit.

keno-daytrader

This so called safeguard of providing your pps number is nonsense.

What if 4 people in an unmetered house, whats to stop them from claiming only 1 person in this house and pay for only 1 occupant?

The whole thing is a farce and I feel when people dont pay there will be some bs legislation rammed thru so they can collect from your pps number, just like if you dont pay your LPT, Revenue will get it from you in the end.

They change the goal posts all the time with IW, remember how Phil Hogan said you have 1 year to declare a leak and Irish water will fix it(just 4 months ago he said this), thats totally gone now, and any leak is now is the owner/occupiers responsibility.

pwurple

D3PO wrote: »

I dont see the issue tbh although It is/was a bit of a pain in the ass for me personally.

Had to take a day off work yesterday to register the birth of my new son just so I could sort getting a PPS number for him to fill in the form and thus get his water allowance. Granted I would have had to register the birth at some stage but it was an inconvienence to be rused into doing it when tbh I have enough on my plate right now.

Well, you also needed it to claim childrens allowance. Plus, most of the maternity hospitals do the registration for you when you are in there having the baby. Plus, your wife is on maternity leave, and could probably have also done it at some point over the next month without you taking any day off work.

I much prefer allowances to be verified by PPS than randomly self-declared like the property tax is. Lowers fraud surely. And aren't mechanisms to lower fraud something to be aimed for in general?

pwurple

dottie_lottie wrote: »

What I object to here is this notion that because I'm not willing to hand out my pps number willy nilly to a utility companythey won't be giving me the "free allowance". The free allowance is, according to the Irish water booklet, available to all households of 1 or more persons. Therefore if I fill in and return my form, that act in its self proves that I am a household of at least one person and should be entitled to the allowance. They do not need my pps number to verify that!

So, they should write an entirely separate documentation system for you and other single people... and everyone else should be the other system with multiples in the household?

Sounds pricier I'd say.

Would you be willing to pay even MORE water charges to pay for this extra software, different policy set and entirely separate database to accomadate that kind of faffery? Or maybe, seeing as everyone has a bloody PPS, we could all use the same system.

D3PO

pwurple wrote: »

Well, you also needed it to claim childrens allowance. Plus, most of the maternity hospitals do the registration for you when you are in there having the baby. Plus, your wife is on maternity leave, and could probably have also done it at some point over the next month without you taking any day off work.

Childrens allowance is backdated and therefore wouldnt be a reason Id have to rush in and register the birth.

The hospitals dont do the registration for you they send the detail though but you have to go in to register the birth.

It also takes 10 working days after registering to recieve the PPS number. I can tell myself if something is a pain for me to do I dont need you telling me otherwise. It wouldnt be very difficult for them to have a policy in place for newborns that takes some consideration in for the parents involved, allowing a grace period of a few months to submit the detail for the newborns or face then having the allowance be removed.

This pushed me into doing something quicker than I ordinaraliary would have needed to do and whilst yes I could in theory have made my breatfeeding wife bring a newborn into town try and find pay and display parking, walk up and queue in the offices, and try and sort this between probably a nappy change and feed its not really something most sane individuals would expect of their wives.

As such needing the PPS to register was a pain in the ass for me and will be for a significant number of other people who have or have just had children over the past number of weeks.

Then again joined up thinking and a QUANGO I clearly expect too much.

Triceratops Ballet

pwurple wrote: »

So, they should write an entirely separate documentation system for you and other single people... and everyone else should be the other system with multiples in the household?

Sounds pricier I'd say.

Would you be willing to pay even MORE water charges to pay for this extra software, different policy set and entirely separate database to accomadate that kind of faffery? Or maybe, seeing as everyone has a bloody PPS, we could all use the same system.

Or they could just not ask for it at all, as its it not necessary and is open to abuse just as much as operating without it. IF the allowance was on a per person basis, I could see a reasoning behind it, but its not its 30,000 l per household if there is 1 adult or 10 adults living there.

I'm not taking about the allowance for kids here at all, what I'm saying is that every home in the country which is classed as a household, (in that it has more than one person in it) who returns the form should get that 30,000 allowance, because by virtue of returning the form at all they have proven that they a) are a household and b) are signing up to pay. I agree that if you want further discounts you should have to verify that you need them, but I don't think pps appropriate, my pps is issued to me for use in my interactions with the state, and not as some sort of bargaining chip a private company can use so that I can avail of a basic human need, and yes I know it was signed into law that they can ask for it, but that's even worse, that sets a precedent, how long will it be before all utilities are asking for this stuff, and what happens when Irish Water is no longer semi state, when its a fully private company, possibly owned but a company outside the state, will we still have to fork over the same information?

In terms of admin costs, I work for a company where people are billed according to category, and in family groups, and with certain discounts depending on their age and who pay by a variety of different methods. Maintaining a database is maintaining a database, its the same no matter how many categories are on it and what kind of information you require for them.

They simply could have asked:
q1. please state how many adults are resident at your address ____
q2.Do you wish to apply for additional water allowances for, children/ those with special needs ____________ (please supply the following documentation to support your application for this)

All this said, I have returned my form, without my pps, I'll forgo the allowance to protect my privacy thanks. "Here! we'll give you a free water, if you give us your pps" "eh F*&k right off thanks"

pwurple

D3PO wrote: »

This pushed me into doing something quicker than I ordinaraliary would have needed to do

:rolleyes: Exactly, you'd have to do it anyway.

I've a small baby and a toddler myself, I don't need it explained to me how to *gosh* park and drive and *omg* go into the city with a baby. Get over yerselves. It's a piece of piss to get the PPS for a child. People just make absolute mountains out of molehills.

ps, you've the bones of another two months to return that form. There was no rush with doing anything at all about a pps.

pwurple

dottie_lottie wrote: »

All this said, I have returned my form, without my pps, I'll forgo the allowance to protect my privacy thanks. "Here! we'll give you a free water, if you give us your pps" "eh F*&k right off thanks"

Have you ever lived outside Ireland? In the US, your social security number is needed for almost every purchase.

Here is the list of agencies who can lawfully request SSN.

• Insurance companies
• Credit card companies, lenders, and any other company receiving a credit application from you
• credit reporting agencies:
• Any company that sells products or services that require notification to the IRS, including investment advisors; banks; real estate purchases; financial transactions over $10,000, such as automobile purchases; and other financial transactions


So, you can't even buy a car without handing over your social security number in other countries. Or open a bank account.


It's a means of national identification. To prevent fraud, duplication, etc.

D3PO

pwurple wrote: »

:rolleyes: Exactly, you'd have to do it anyway.

I've a small baby and a toddler myself, I don't need it explained to me how to *gosh* park and drive and *omg* go into the city with a baby. Get over yerselves. It's a piece of piss to get the PPS for a child. People just make absolute mountains out of molehills.

ps, you've the bones of another two months to return that form. There was no rush with doing anything at all about a pps.

Yes Id have had to do it anyway. When it was convenient to do so

End of October is 2 months away is it ? :rolleyes::rolleyes: minus 10 working days to actually get the number to submit on the form assuming no delays their end :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just because you have no compassion for your wife (going by the lack of regard you would appear to show her or other new mothers in a similar scenario) dont expect others to act like cavemen too.

Triceratops Ballet

pwurple wrote: »

Have you ever lived outside Ireland? In the US, your social security number is needed for almost every purchase.

Here is the list of agencies who can lawfully request SSN.

• Insurance companies
• Credit card companies, lenders, and any other company receiving a credit application from you
• credit reporting agencies:
• Any company that sells products or services that require notification to the IRS, including investment advisors; banks; real estate purchases; financial transactions over $10,000, such as automobile purchases; and other financial transactions


So, you can't even buy a car without handing over your social security number in other countries. Or open a bank account.

It's a means of national identification. To prevent fraud, duplication, etc.

I don't live outside of Ireland, so what happens in other jurisdictions is somewhat irrelevant, a pps is not a ssn, it wasn't set up for any of the purposes you listed above, it was set up as a number citizens use to interact with state bodies.

Furthermore, it's is not going to prevent fraud in this instance! For example I live in an apartment of two adults, we're unmetered, so we will be paying the assessed charge for the first 6 months, were I a more dishonest person I could say there is one adult living there, give my pps number and pay the assessed charge for one person rather than two. Them having my pps doesn't stop fraud like that happening.
What about children of divorced parents who split their time between two homes, by rights both households are entitled to the allowance, because the children could be in either house any given week, but because they are registered by pps, one parent will probably lose out.

ABajaninCork

D3PO wrote: »

Yes Id have had to do it anyway. When it was convenient to do so

End of October is 2 months away is it ? :rolleyes::rolleyes: minus 10 working days to actually get the number to submit on the form assuming no delays their end :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just because you have no compassion for your wife (going by the lack of regard you would appear to show her or other new mothers in a similar scenario) dont expect others to act like cavemen too.

Er - Pwurple is a WOMAN! . Why is it people just assume posters are always male??

pwurple

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Er - Pwurple is a WOMAN! . Why is it people just assume posters are always male??

I know, LMAO at that fella.

D3PO

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Er - Pwurple is a WOMAN! . Why is it people just assume posters are always male??

Well then she should undestand better than most how ridiculous a statement "get over themselves" is in response to somebody pointing out how onderous expecting a new mother to travel into town with a newborn to register for a PPS is to get a water allowance when the simple solution would be to allow registration and a grace period for PPS to be provided for newborn children.

Getting way off topic but should for example a single parent who has a C Section today be expected to travel in to their local registration office in the next few weeks to sort a PPS number for their child so as to get their allowance ?

Theres no good argument to will convince me that this is a reasonable thing to expect.

Ogham

dottie_lottie wrote: »

Furthermore, it's is not going to prevent fraud in this instance! For example I live in an apartment of two adults, we're unmetered, so we will be paying the assessed charge for the first 6 months,.

Why do you think it will be for just the first 6 months?
Apartments will probably never be metered - you will be on the assessed charge for good.

pwurple

D3PO wrote: »

Well then she should undestand better than most how ridiculous a statement "get over themselves" is in response to somebody pointing out how onderous expecting a new mother to travel into town with a newborn to register for a PPS.

There were 2 months from receipt of the letter to filing the form. There's another 3 months until the bill arrives, in which time a simple phone call will sort it out.

You can't realistically tell me that 5 months to get a PPS number is a tight amount of time for anyone.


It's not "onderous" or even onerous to register a birth. We did it in the hospital for both our children. Which I'd expect someone with a c-section and half a brain to also do.

D3PO

pwurple wrote: »

There were 2 months from receipt of the letter to filing the form. There's another 3 months until the bill arrives, in which time a simple phone call will sort it out.

You can't realistically tell me that 5 months to get a PPS number is a tight amount of time for anyone.


It's not "onderous" or even onerous to register a birth. We did it in the hospital for both our children. Which I'd expect someone with a c-section and half a brain to also do.

Are you making timelines up to prove your non existant point ?

I got the letter last week Thursday to be precise. I know people that still dont have their letter, just because you have yours 2 months dont assume that Irish water were efficent enough to get eveyrbody their letters then.

Registeration is for the end of October, weather the bill is 3 months way is irrelevent. Unless your in a position to provide special dispensation to people in regards to the registration timeline :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Given it takes 10 working days to get reciept of the PPS number that gave me 21 working days to sort it going down to the last second and assuming no delays in getting the PPS number. Which would not be something worth assuming.

So yes it is onerous thank you Mrs Grammar Nazi

D3PO

pwurple wrote: »

It's not "onderous" or even onerous to register a birth. We did it in the hospital for both our children. Which I'd expect someone with a c-section and half a brain to also do.

I take the fact you need to insult people as a sign you have run out of a relevent argument. But well done :rolleyes:

Oh and FYI Im glad I can educate you and your clealry more than half a brain :rolleyes:

A Birth Notification Form (Form BNF/01) outlines the information to be recorded in the Register of Births and should be completed by one or both of the parents to guarantee that correct and accurate information is registered. This form is given to mothers in hospital and should be completed and returned to hospital staff before the mother is discharged. The form will be forwarded to the Registrar's Office letting the Registrar know that a birth has occurred. This is not enough, however, to register the birth.

The registration of the birth is carried out based on information provided by a qualified informant who is required to attend at the Office of the Registrar to sign the Register of Births

pwurple

Sorry you wasted you own time dude, it sucks. But it really ain't the problem of Irish water. For your future registration needs, here is an example of the registrar in a hospital:

http://www.cuh.hse.ie/Our_Services/Clinical_Services/Cork_University_Maternity_Hospital/Services_Provided/Maternity_Services/Post_Natal_Care/Registering_Your_Baby/

See how helpful I am!

I don't know why you think they will be insisting on you registering the baby's PPS number with them the very second of birth for the free allowance, when there is a quarterly billing cycle. Your assumption is bordering on complete paranoia.

D3PO

pwurple wrote: »

Sorry you wasted you own time dude, it sucks. But it really ain't the problem of Irish water. For your future registration needs, here is an example of the registrar in a hospital:

http://www.cuh.hse.ie/Our_Services/Clinical_Services/Cork_University_Maternity_Hospital/Services_Provided/Maternity_Services/Post_Natal_Care/Registering_Your_Baby/

See how helpful I am!

I don't know why you think they will be insisting on you registering the baby's PPS number with them the very second of birth for the free allowance, when there is a quarterly billing cycle. Your assumption is bordering on complete paranoia.

Thats a great service they have in Cork so but dont assume that that is the norm elsewhere in the country (and its not)

Im not bordering on paranoia I have a salient point. Im not sure why you suggest I should perhaps forgoe an allowance for 1 quarter and yes you must provide the PPS number to get the allowance tharts preciely my point there is no mechanisim of common sence for them to allow you register for the allowance and then retrospectively provide the detail.

The_Conductor

Guys- quit sniping at one another. If you insist on having a disagreement with one another- take it to PM- this is not an appropriate venue.

Also- please read the forum's charter if you intend to continue posting here- and pay particular heed to disputing the post, without attacking the poster- which neither of you are following here..........

Its not all that difficult to remain civil towards one another.........

rubberdiddies

i too have an issue with giving my PPS number and that of my children because we don't know all the facts.

we are being told from various quarters that IW is a private company who aren't entitled to your PPS number. I don't know if this is true.
To the best of my knowledge, no one in government has cleared this up on the record. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know why they havent cleared this up though. What are the hiding/worried about?

Is it true that by sending back the pack, with PPS numbers etc, we are entering into a contract with IW? Or again is this just scaremongering? Why though hasn't anyone in government cleared this up?

I'm not inclined to give them my PPS numbers and so presumably will not be able to avail of the allowances, so will be debating whether or not to pay any bill. On that note, is anything clear as to what will happen if bills arent paid? Can anything actually happen legally?

If and when IW goes up for sale to a 'private company', the small print on their website says that they can give any and all of the information you provide to them to a third party, including any company they decide to sell to.

To sum up, I'm reluctant to give my PPS number because there is so much confusion and so many unanswered questions.

D3PO

rubberdiddies wrote: »

iwhat will happen if bills arent paid? Can anything actually happen legally?

.

My understanding is that they cannot cut off your water like other utilites due to your right to access to it.

So one would have to assume they will if possible drop the pressure to make it as painfull as possible to those whom dont pay.

I believe in broadening the tax base and think its the right thing to have to pay for water, that said Irish Water and the government (whom I think have generally done a very good job in office and without doubt a way better job than FF did in power) have made a complete clusterfu(k of this.

blindsider

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/irish-water-to-use-pps-numbers.html

"Changes to the legislation were made in July this year that also allow Irish Water to request and use the PPS numbers of customers. The changes were contained in the SOCIAL WELFARE AND PENSIONS BILL 2014 – which was published in May and was passed in the Dail and enacted on 17th July 2014"

There are some people who seem to think that Irish Water is not owned by the State – but it is fully state owned

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/who-owns-irish-water.html


I don't know Moneyguideireland.com - are they reputable?

Ogham

EunanMac wrote: »

Very simple to give a few PPS numbers for family who are away at college or abroad, so the PPS no. is far from foolproof.

What good would that do? Only one adult PPS is needed.

L1011

blindsider wrote: »

I don't know Moneyguideireland.com - are they reputable?

They're accurate in this case - you can check the Act (http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2014/a1614.pdf) and the ownership (https://www.duedil.com/company/IE530363/irish-water/financials - may need a login) yourself if you want

Bord Gais Eireann there is the state-owned entity, not the sold-to-British-gas entity

Carawaystick

I don't see why IW need ppsn's.
They could just let people apply, stating how many adults and children there are and
get DSW to confirm the no of children

So
I say there are 2 adults and 17 children living in 2 Carawaystick St, Dublin8
IW say to DSWare there 17 children getting child benefit at address X

DSW say yay or nay.

If it's nay, IW don't allow any allowances for children

Ogham

Carawaystick wrote: »

I don't see why IW need ppsn's.
They could just let people apply, stating how many adults and children there are and
get DSW to confirm the no of children

So
I say there are 2 adults and 17 children living in 2 Carawaystick St, Dublin8
IW say to DSWare there 17 children getting child benefit at address X

DSW say yay or nay.

If it's nay, IW don't allow any allowances for children

If every house in Ireland had a unique identifier - then that might work. But they don't . Databases need common data to check - and addresses are not unique , especially in rural areas.

PPSN is unique .

drumswan

rubberdiddies wrote: »

If and when IW goes up for sale to a 'private company', the small print on their website says that they can give any and all of the information you provide to them to a third party, including any company they decide to sell to.

Can you link to this?

Zamboni

I have no issue with paying water charges if the service was good.
But they are charging us upfront in order to pay for the infrastructural upgrades.
The state had the finance to upgrade the infrastructure in the good times and FF did sweet fa.
If FG/Lab want to widen the tax base through services charges they should decrease income tax rates. Otherwise it is double taxation.
As far as I'm concerned I have paid for water since the day I got my first payslip.

Separately, the water "allowance" is actually just a ply to get PPS number - not just for Irish Water but for the state itself. The stated objective of why they want PPS numbers is complete horse manure.
Think about it logically - the vast administration in the business processes to provide this "allowance" is ridiculously expensive. This is about data.
There is a large but quite campaign underway by the state to improve the quality of the data of all citizens in conjunction with Revenue, DSP, GRO and to align all the various databases. Vast project.
This will help in many ways from administration to predictive analytics to assist in planning.
You as a citizen can decide if this is a either good thing or a big brother state in motion and choose to engage or disengage.
Your price for anonymity is 30,000 litres of water.

D3PO wrote: »

Had to take a day off work yesterday to register the birth of my new son

Congratulations D3PO