The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

The Cush

The problem I see with RTÉ using these small-scale DAB muxes in certain urban areas in GB will be the lack of reception outside their limited coverage areas for those driving or living outside these areas. Ofcom's initial plan is for 192 of these muxes across the country. Can/will RTÉ Radio 1 be available across all these muxes, unlikely I'd say due to cost alone.

The only realistic LW mobile/portable/fixed replacement option would be carriage on one of the national commercial DAB muxes for near nationwide coverage, lack of capacity is the problem there.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

The problem I see with RTÉ using these small-scale DAB muxes in certain urban areas in GB will be the lack of reception outside their limited coverage areas for those driving or living outside these areas. Ofcom's initial plan is for 192 of these muxes across the country. Can/will RTÉ Radio 1 be available across all these muxes, unlikely I'd say due to cost alone.

The only realistic LW mobile/portable/fixed replacement option would be carriage on one of the national commercial DAB muxes for near nationwide coverage, lack of capacity is the problem there.

Is it (or should it be?) a priority for RTÉ to have their transmissions available while mobile (car etc) in the UK?

burnsey1987

burnsey1987 wrote: »

As for listening on the move, there is a very real possibility that R5 Live could change its format and go digital only. If things were to play out that way, just consider how many people such as drivers, tradesmen, reps and so on who could be cut off?

This shouldn't happen, there's nothing wrong with analogue radio, it does the job fine and you don't need a new radio.

We all don't have apple car play or Android Auto in our cars and even if we did people have bandwidth limits and you'd most likely experience frequent breakup.

Seems to me as people in management get younger and younger all with their Spotify and tune in radio they see no value or point to what they see as an ancient technology. Yes I use Spotify and tune in radio but I also use normal radio and love the ability to have the freedom and ability not to have to use the internet to receive everything as the powers that be want, especially something like radio.

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Is it (or should it?) a priority for RTÉ to have their transmissions available while mobile (car etc) in the UK?

Not necessarily but I believe they should as best as possible strive to replicate LW coverage for fixed reception with a basic DAB radio for those who currently use the service. This was their intention as part of the consortium that bid for the second UK national commercial DAB licence but lost out to Sound Digital. That mux currently covers 73-75% of UK households.

elperello

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

If they can afford to mount a campaign and send a delegation, they should be able to afford newer reception technology.

They are standing up for themselves and fair play to them.
The ones on the delegation are probably the better off ones but there are a lot more who are not well off.

To get perspective on this you need to tune your radio back to the sixties or earlier when a lot of these people were effectively driven out of their country.
They were victims of the way Ireland was then and it ill behoves us to let them down again in their twilight years.

Anyone interested in these Irish people could do worse than read this book -
https://www.catherinedunneauthor.com/an-unconsidered-people/

SPDUB

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Are they not also available as internet stations?
http://www.ieradio.org/
What is this fixation about LW when a much better service is available?

The internet option has been unless for a fair number of people this week

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The reliability of the Manchester (or other area) internet is hardly the concern of RTÉ!

SPDUB wrote: »

The internet option has been unless for a fair number of people this week

So what?

How is that any concern of RTÉ's?

marno21

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So what?

How is that any concern of RTÉ's?

RTE are a public service broadcaster. They are there to serve the public, not the public that's economically viable. Compare TV3's analogue coverage and RTE/TG4's analogue coverage to see an example of this, or indeed now the Saorsat service.

Johnboy1951

marno21 wrote: »

RTE are a public service broadcaster. They are there to serve the public, not the public that's economically viable. Compare TV3's analogue coverage and RTE/TG4's analogue coverage to see an example of this, or indeed now the Saorsat service.

What point are you making in relation to RTÉ Radio 1 LW?

marno21

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What point are you making in relation to RTÉ Radio 1 LW?

Kinsale, Youghal, Rosscarbery, Clonakilty, Bantry and parts of Cork harbour are examples of areas this week where there was no mobile phone reception, no electricity and the radio transmitters were out.

252 LW was their only way of receiving information during the storm. It's food for thought.

Johnboy1951

marno21 wrote: »

Kinsale, Youghal, Rosscarbery, Clonakilty, Bantry and parts of Cork harbour are examples of areas this week where there was no mobile phone reception, no electricity and the radio transmitters were out.

252 LW was their only way of receiving information during the storm. It's food for thought.

Maybe I am wrong, but I seriously doubt there were many people in those areas with the capability of receiving a LW broadcast.

Is there any survey or poll to indicate what percentage of the population would have an active ability to receive LW broadcasts?

In truth I know no one who currently has LW capability on a battery powered receiver.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

Kinsale, Youghal, Rosscarbery, Clonakilty, Bantry and parts of Cork harbour are examples of areas this week where there was no mobile phone reception, no electricity and the radio transmitters were out.

252 LW was their only way of receiving information during the storm. It's food for thought.

Absolutely and brings me back to the point I keep beating into people about having all our eggs in one basket , all broadcasters want all their media transmitted via internet eventually and no transmitters which in my opinion is a huge mistake and will become apparent when there is some major cyber attack or world event that causes large parts of the internet to go down for extended periods.

Not to mention everything else we depend on the internet for these days which is a lot.

Fuzzy Clam

marno21 wrote: »

Kinsale, Youghal, Rosscarbery, Clonakilty, Bantry and parts of Cork harbour are examples of areas this week where there was no mobile phone reception, no electricity and the radio transmitters were out.

252 LW was their only way of receiving information during the storm. It's food for thought.

Were there no FM transmissions this week?

marno21

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Were there no FM transmissions this week?

Kinsale, Bantry and parts of Cork harbour had their FM relays knocked out by the storm. Rosscarbery, Clonakilty and parts of Youghal have to rely on the Internet for coverage at the best of times, and had no TV services as the relay was out (and so was cosited phone relays/backhaul services).

Gerry Wicklow

So much for using Saorsat as a backup feed

marno21

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

So much for using Saorsat as a backup feed

Saorsat is no use if the transmitter itself has no power. Ferrypoint TV transmitter near Youghal is still out today.

I would've thought power feeds to transmission sites would be prioritised, especially with a second Storm impacting today.

Joe Duffy.

marno21 wrote: »

Kinsale, Youghal, Rosscarbery, Clonakilty, Bantry and parts of Cork harbour are examples of areas this week where there was no mobile phone reception, no electricity and the radio transmitters were out.

252 LW was their only way of receiving information during the storm. It's food for thought.

That's a good point but the campaign to save lw 252 seems to be fixated on "elderly" people in England

dxhound2005

Since MW and LW are not going to be the future people should considers putting up an external antenna for FM. In the old days an external antenna was needed for good MW reception, and people had no problem either putting a TV antenna on their chimneys when TV came in.

An external FM antenna will enable reception of signals from other transmitters if the usual one is off air. On this forum someone on a hill in Co Limerick was able to get reception of RTE Radio from Clermont Cairn in Co Louth. I was in Carrickfergus today and all the Clermont Cairn signals were coming in loud and clear on the car radio. I am not familiar with reception in the South West but I would be surprised if the FM band was completely dead at any location.

External FM antennas are usually the domain of what used to be called hi-fi buffs, who wanted the strongest possible signal to enjoy the benefits of stereo FM music. But there is no reason why people couldn't install a simple antenna on their chimney or gable and bring in dozens of stations. And where 252 reception is marginal in the South West which has also been reported on this forum an external antenna would be needed anyway.

marno21

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Since MW and LW are not going to be the future people should considers putting up an external antenna for FM. In the old days an external antenna was needed for good MW reception, and people had no problem either putting a TV antenna on their chimneys when TV came in.

An external FM antenna will enable reception of signals from other transmitters if the usual one is off air. On this forum someone on a hill in Co Limerick was able to get reception of RTE Radio from Clermont Cairn in Co Louth. I was in Carrickfergus today and all the Clermont Cairn signals were coming in loud and clear on the car radio. I am not familiar with reception in the South West but I would be surprised if the FM band was completely dead at any location.

External FM antennas are usually the domain of what used to be called hi-fi buffs, who wanted the strongest possible signal to enjoy the benefits of stereo FM music. But there is no reason why people couldn't install a simple antenna on their chimney or gable and bring in dozens of stations. And where 252 reception is marginal in the South West which has also been reported on this forum an external antenna would be needed anyway.

An external antenna is no use unless you have a high end that has an external connecter. Most of which are powered by mains electricity, and have long wave to begin with.

252 reception is marginal in the south west at night when Chaine 3 is much more powerful. Daytime reception would not be an issue.

Joe Duffy.

Joe Duffy. wrote: »

That's a good point but the campaign to save lw 252 seems to be fixated on "elderly" people in England

And what's wrong with that ?

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Since MW and LW are not going to be the future people should considers putting up an external antenna for FM. In the old days an external antenna was needed for good MW reception, and people had no problem either putting a TV antenna on their chimneys when TV came in.

An external FM antenna will enable reception of signals from other transmitters if the usual one is off air. On this forum someone on a hill in Co Limerick was able to get reception of RTE Radio from Clermont Cairn in Co Louth. I was in Carrickfergus today and all the Clermont Cairn signals were coming in loud and clear on the car radio. I am not familiar with reception in the South West but I would be surprised if the FM band was completely dead at any location.

External FM antennas are usually the domain of what used to be called hi-fi buffs, who wanted the strongest possible signal to enjoy the benefits of stereo FM music. But there is no reason why people couldn't install a simple antenna on their chimney or gable and bring in dozens of stations. And where 252 reception is marginal in the South West which has also been reported on this forum an external antenna would be needed anyway.

You'd be surprised what an external antenna will do to MW/LW reception only most radios today have no external antenna input for LW/MW, I have an external LW/MW/SW connected to my WEBSdr and the difference in reception is quiet dramatic. It also works wonders connected to my Tecsun S2000 which has external antenna options for LW/MW/SW and FM.

BY the way, DRM or digital on Shortwave is amazing !

Fuzzy Clam

marno21 wrote: »

Kinsale, Bantry and parts of Cork harbour had their FM relays knocked out by the storm. Rosscarbery, Clonakilty and parts of Youghal have to rely on the Internet for coverage at the best of times, and had no TV services as the relay was out (and so was cosited phone relays/backhaul services).

So there were NO FM transmissions recievable at all ?
I don't think so.

marno21

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

So there were NO FM transmissions recievable at all ?
I don't think so.

In large parts of these areas, there wasn't.

RTENL didn't install FM relays for the laugh.

Some of these areas (Rosscarbery, Kinsale) are total FM blackspots due to terrain.

Fuzzy Clam

marno21 wrote: »

In large parts of these areas, there wasn't.

RTENL didn't install FM relays for the laugh.

Some of these areas (Rosscarbery, Kinsale) are total FM blackspots due to terrain.

There were other stations they could tune into?

marno21

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

There were other stations they could tune into?

The entire Kinsale area had no power so the 4 independent relays were also off.

The ILR relays are cosited in Clonakilty, Bantry and Youghal, and I believe the ILR relays in Crosshaven were also out.

Hotblack Desiato

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

In truth I know no one who currently has LW capability on a battery powered receiver.

Well I still have and still use a little Sony which runs for ages on three AA cells and has FM, MW and LW. Was great on my trips down to the south of France, I could get news in English on BBC R4 LW over most (but not all) of that country. There was no RTE on 252 then, but I believe it's directional towards Britain and the power is a fraction of Droitwich anyway.

There is no digital technology in existence which can match, never mind surpass, this cheap economical little radio.

marno21

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well I still have and still use a little Sony which runs for ages on three AA cells and has FM, MW and LW. Was great on my trips down to the south of France, I could get news in English on BBC R4 LW over most (but not all) of that country. There was no RTE on 252 then, but I believe it's directional towards Britain and the power is a fraction of Droitwich anyway.

There is no digital technology in existence which can match, never mind surpass, this cheap economical little radio.

Proximity to Algeria and the low power of Clarkstown would be an issue in the south of France alright.

Hotblack Desiato

marno21 wrote: »

Proximity to Algeria and the low power of Clarkstown would be an issue in the south of France alright.

I wasn't even trying 252 then, it was only pap, just 198.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well I still have and still use a little Sony which runs for ages on three AA cells and has FM, MW and LW. Was great on my trips down to the south of France, I could get news in English on BBC R4 LW over most (but not all) of that country. There was no RTE on 252 then, but I believe it's directional towards Britain and the power is a fraction of Droitwich anyway.

There is no digital technology in existence which can match, never mind surpass, this cheap economical little radio.

Tecsun PL-310ET is a great little radio. Very sensitive tuner and ETM function scans and stores stations automatically but won't overwrite memory stations, handy if scanning SW with the way stations come and go depending on conditions, time of day etc.

The 310 ET can also be used as a bedside alarm clock.

ON the Tecsun PL-310 ET I can get LW 252 at 35-40 db here in Carlow.



And the Cheaper again Tecsun R9012, analogue tuned which I like sometimes for spead of tuning or to see what SW bands are active by quick scanning with the dial.



Unfortunately none of those radios have LW and their MW performance isn't terrific, their internal antennas are small for portability but an loop antenna such as the Tecsun An200 dramatically improves MW reception and can make stations appear that otherwise are not heard at all.



Or buy on ebay a good old fashioned Roberts R600 which has fantastic MW/LW reception, they are much larger radios than the pocket radios above with much larger antennas and built for good MW/LW reception unlike today where MW/LW is just there as a function to sell.

I really like the Roberts R600, a very nice looking radio.

I love the fact you can buy really cheap radios and not have to bother with trying to find DAB reception and the batteries last forever. And you don't have to buy much more expensive internet radios which most can't be powered by batteries and if they could they're a lot more power hungry.

Ideally you can buy a radio with external antenna inputs and the difference in reception will be dramatic.

The Tecsun S2000 has large LW/MW antenna on the top that can be rotated and improves reception a lot, a great radio and a set of 10,000 Mah rechargeable NiMh D cells last a very long time.



External Antenna Inputs.



https://www.amazon.co.uk/EBL-10000mAh-Rechargeable-Batteries-Capacity-white/dp/B011RVEYHA/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1508662444&sr=1-1&keywords=EBL+4+Pack+10000mAh+D+Size

The S2000 is a very good radio.

I wonder why 252 is so far behind the FM broadcast? It’s only slightly ahead of DAB.

burnsey1987

Just back from London (NW6 area) after a couple of days. RTE 1 on 252 was almost completely inaudible during the day. At night things were only marginally better, add to that the interference from Algeria 3. Czech 1 was just about audible on 270 (odd considering that station is at very low power nowadays compared to what it was years ago). RTL, Monte Carlo & Europe 1 were coming in very strong, as was BBC 4 of course.

On MW, BBC Wales and Scotland had only marginal reception day or night. A shed load of low-power stations within the Greater London area (a good few of which are not on FM, DAB or Freeview) coming in with a very clean and strong signal at any time of day. Quite a lot to choose from, especially sports, talk, ethnic stations and niche formats.

I'd say LW 252 is running about <100 Kw day and maybe 50 Kw or less at night, a far cry from it's 500 Kw design.

These days with all the modern electronic RF pollution you got to use external antennas, the difference is night and day. Even at that the noise can be bad enough to wipe out all but the strongest of signals.

This SDR in London proves that with a proper antenna the signal can be received pretty well, of course you can just hear Algeria in the background, the Wellbrook loop is good I hear no electronic buzzing. I don't know whether the Antenna is mounted indoors or Out.

The London SDR http://82.37.176.217:8073/

Fuzzy Clam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd say LW 252 is running about <100 Kw day and maybe 50 Kw or less at night, a far cry from it's 500 Kw design.

Its a 300 kW transmitter.
Last I heard its running at 150 day and 75 night and employs dynamic carrier control (DCC).

100 day and 60 night was mentioned here about a year ago.

Fuzzy Clam

Karsini wrote: »

100 day and 60 night was mentioned here about a year ago.

Cant see anything from a year ago but 120-150 and 60-75 was mentioned 10 months ago.

Fuzzy Clam

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Cant see anything from a year ago but 120-150 and 60-75 was mentioned 10 months ago.

January 2016, so a little longer than I thought:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98520709&postcount=72

Fuzzy Clam

Karsini wrote: »

January 2016, so a little longer than I thought:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98520709&postcount=72

Which states 150/60.

Oops, my bad. I actually thought I said 150 above. Too tired at the moment.

Phat Dick

Atlantic 252 dj Sandy Beech has been convicted of Sexually abusing an 11 year old girl. I guess if rte lw or RTE Gold were to rebroadcast the tribute to mark the closure of the transmitter, he'll have to the edited from existence.

Jesus, that's horrible , While I don't remember him on Atlantic 252 I remember the station very well and loved it.

I doubt RTE will have any tribute to the transmitter, my guess it will just be switched off and no one will care and the whole site will be decommissioned , mast dismantled as has happened all over Europe. I'm only amazed the same hasn't happened to the 567 khz site.

We should fight for it's preservation for historical reasons, same as 567 really, after all we own it, not RTE , it's the Irish people's Transmitter !

If I had the money I would love to keep it going at full power and even use it's DRM capability on occasion and it would actually be great to have an alternate station that plays decent music free from the shackles of the FM station license which is highly restrictive, after all why should the regulator care about the MW/Lw bands anyway ?

In fairness the Athlone site is historically more significant and it is to be preserved. Would love to visit it sometime.

burnsey1987

I still can't understand why RTE Radio 1 can't be put on Freeview. It's available on Freesat (along with 2FM, FM3 and RnaG), so why can't it be on Freeview? Trans World Radio is and that's not a UK-based station, so I see no reason why RTE 1 can't go on any of the Freeview MUXs. Okay, so it's not a solution to listening on the move but for indoor listening it should be a good solution for Irish people in the UK. Every house I've been in over there has a Freeview-compatible TV, and you can get a small TV in Maplin's for about 50 pounds. It seems like a no-brainer to me...

dxhound2005

There are 30 radio stations on the Divis (Belfast) Freeview transmitter, including TWR. But on the Camlough (Armagh) transmitter only 13 stations. I think that discrepancy would be reflected all around the UK.

There is no need to put RTE radio on hundreds of Freeview transmitters when as you say it is already on Freesat. A small satellite dish is all that is needed for reception from one satellite frequency covering all of these islands.

But that loses the point of the campaign in Britain. They want LW to continue for the older Irish expats who (according to them) cannot manage any other technology except LW.

People shouldn't be forced to use TV to listen to radio, that's just ridiculous !

You also shouldn't expect people to listen to the radio via the internet as that would require an internet subscription.

The only real alternative is DAB though I'd imagine DAB bands are crowded in the U.K.

Lw/Mw really offers a good alternative to otherwise congested fm/dab bands, but in the evening MW can be especially crowded with several overlapping transmitters.

It's a shame DRM is slow to adopt, I do listen to radio Romania international on SW in crystal clear digital quality on the 49 and 41 meter bands, it sounds way better than LW 252 especially when Algeria is overlapping and is free from any buzzing related to modern electronics.

The LW 252 transmitter was upgraded to DRM some years ago too shame manufacturers were slow to release radios with DRM.

Johnboy1951

Deleted User wrote: »

People shouldn't be forced to use TV to listen to radio, that's just ridiculous !

They are not.

It is quite simple to listen to Sat Radio without a TV.

I can do so on tablet, phone or PC, using Kodi to interface with the Sat receiver.
There is other software also, no doubt, that will facilitate that.

burnsey1987

Deleted User wrote: »

People shouldn't be forced to use TV to listen to radio, that's just ridiculous !

Not entirely ridiculous, plenty of people I know in the UK listen to the radio on their Freeview TV. My suggestion was a practical and workable compromise given that LW is most certainly on the way out

Deleted User wrote: »

You also shouldn't expect people to listen to the radio via the internet as that would require an internet subscription.

Absolutely agreed. 100%

Deleted User wrote: »

The only real alternative is DAB though I'd imagine DAB bands are crowded in the U.K.

RTE1 could potentially be relayed on the new DAB mini-MUXs in areas like London & Manchester, yes that may be an option.

Deleted User wrote: »

Lw/Mw really offers a good alternative to otherwise congested fm/dab bands, but in the evening MW can be especially crowded with several overlapping transmitters.

AM most certainly does have its advantages, I do use it in conjunction with Freesat & the internet (I find it particularly useful when on the ferry to the UK for instance) but the real killer is overcrowding (can be alleviated to an extent by rotating the radio) and noise interference. In my apartment I can only use my Philips MW/LW radio in either of the two bedrooms at the back. Anywhere else is not possible, even with the main breaker off interference from upstairs wipes out any usable signal. Either way, the clock is ticking for the medium whether we like it or not.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a shame DRM is slow to adopt, I do listen to radio Romania international on SW in crystal clear digital quality on the 49 and 41 meter bands, it sounds way better than LW 252 especially when Algeria is overlapping and is free from any buzzing related to modern electronics.

The LW 252 transmitter was upgraded to DRM some years ago too shame manufacturers were slow to release radios with DRM.

I think the problems faced by DRM are as follows:

1) It arrived fairly late in the game when satellite broadcasting was already well established for international broadcasting.

2) It really wasn't marketed/promoted properly at all.

3) And like you have said manufacturers have been extremely reluctant to launch DRM-compatible receivers.

I do think, however, that national broadcasters should keep a close eye on India's DRM rollout, and if successful, consider it as a serious medium

Ah here now, you can't expect the majority of the public to mess with linux sat boxes to listen to radio, that's just madness.

It's radio pure and simple either shut of LW 252 and that be the end of it if that's what RTE want or make it simple and practical for people to receive it. Yea sure there are a lot of us who can use internet and apps etc but a lot of people can't or don't want to.

The Cush

Deleted User wrote: »

The only real alternative is DAB though I'd imagine DAB bands are crowded in the U.K.

burnsey1987 wrote: »

RTE1 could potentially be relayed on the new DAB mini-MUXs in areas like London & Manchester, yes that may be an option.

That's the plan - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=102881474

They have been planning to launch on the Manchester Niocast DAB+ mini-mux since it started its trial licence but awaiting a change in regulations to allow this to happen - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=102977559