The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

dxhound2005

You can buy airtime on some transmitters for very small money. This isn't exactly up to date, but I'm sure the bargains are still out there.

https://swling.com/blog/2015/02/channel-292-amateur-radio-group-broadcasts-on-former-dw-frequency/

Additional content is being sought and at only 15 Euros an hour, this is not a corporate big business rather a facility where smaller groups can afford to buy time to transmit their content.

Gerry Wicklow

Gawd €15/hr would barely cover the leccy and a coffee for the engineer.

10 Kw , I'm talking about owning my own transmitters all 500 Kw ! lol keep dreaming !

Now I wonder who'd be the first to complain if I put in an application for 4 SW transmitters 500 Kw each with multiple antenna arrays ? yet they allow those poxy wind turbines all over the country.

If I won the Euro Millions I'd consider 1 transmitter of maybe 100-250 Kw. That would be sweet.

Gerry Wicklow

Deleted User wrote: »

10 Kw , I'm talking about owning my own transmitters all 500 Kw ! lol keep dreaming !

Now I wonder who'd be the first to complain if I put in an application for 4 SW transmitters 500 Kw each with multiple antenna arrays ? yet they allow those poxy wind turbines all over the country.

If I won the Euro Millions I'd consider 1 transmitter of maybe 100-250 Kw. That would be sweet.

Careful! That drool will short out your keyboard

burnsey1987

Okay, this article is aimed at the US where there has been no significant decline in AM in the last few years & the medium is still fairly popular, but an interesting read all the same... https://www.radioworld.com/columns-and-views/subaru-makes-a-positive-move-on-am

Mickey Mike

I changed a car radio which I didn't have for 4 years. Did a check on the MW band, barley anything on durning the day, but by God at night its full to the rim with trash, when you hear one channel you'll have another channels on top of it again, what a mess of a band. As for LW its not so bad, but Algeria is 30% and RTE Radio1 70% on 252, another mess, still full at night. I don't think AM should operate at night.

Well don't forget there's only one very low power Irish MW station, spirit radio.

I can pick up some U.K stations during the day no problem.

If we had a lot of strong stations of our own we wouldn't hear so many stations overlapping each other, in the U.K and Spain this wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue which is what we mainly hear. Their local stations are strong enough to wipe out most of the foreign MW stations, we hear them because we got none of our own so it sounds a mess.

There's a lot less bandwidth available on LW and not too many stations so it's not much of an issue.

Our FM band is crowded and MW could offer a lot of potential.

I have a Bonito MA305 antenna and it picks up MW extremely well, LW too. It's using the 40 CM antenna, amazing for it's size. You got to be in a low noise area and of course need a radio that accepts an external antenna.

Oscarziggy

For your info --
https://www.rte.ie/aertel//desktopxhtml/169-4.html
Regards

1 year to go and 252 will be gone forever !

Gerry Wicklow

Oscarziggy wrote: »

For your info --
https://www.rte.ie/aertel//desktopxhtml/169-4.html
Regards

Jeez that thing get serviced more often than my car :eek:

Gerry Wicklow

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

Jeez that thing get serviced more often than my car :eek:

They probably won't do any maintenance at all and just turn it off pretending they are so they can use the "expensive" maintenance as justification for turning it off !

Oscarziggy

Deleted User wrote: »

They probably won't do any maintenance at all and just turn it off pretending they are so they can use the "expensive" maintenance as justification for turning it off !

Oh you old cynic you !!
Regards

Gerry Wicklow

Being RTÉ they'll probably spend a fortune on a refurb and shut it down a week later.

Mickey Mike

Its the most maintained transmitter I ever know, but what do they actually do? I never remember Radio 1MW 567 ever going off the air. Maybe they do carry out expensive maintenance, it must be a crock and rte wants to get rid of it

The transmitter is solid state so I'd imagine it requires a lot less maintenance than one with valves.

It must be the antenna but they only did maintenance on that a few months ago.

A perfectly good transmitter if they ran it at full power, someone should nuy it off RTE but they're so anti analogue radio that they'd probably burn it rather than sell it.

Mickey Mike

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The transmitter is solid state so I'd imagine it requires a lot less maintenance than one with valves.

It must be the antenna but they only did maintenance on that a few months ago.

A perfectly good transmitter if they ran it at full power, someone should nuy it off RTE but they're so anti analogue radio that they'd probably burn it rather than sell it.

I agree, that's the crack with RTE, They are even losing interest in the FM service with so many of the lower power txs running on lower power than what it should. RTE wants to go all out Digital.

There's no real advantage to digital other than to be modern, the sound quality is sh1t, mp2 ffs not even mp3. Coverage is poor where as FM is already available, if it's not broke don't fix it.

If RTE had their way there's be no radio or tv it would all transmit via the internet.

is it in Norway, can't remember but they switched of FM and the national broadcaster lost huge numbers of listeners, FM switch off could be the final nail in RTE's Coffin !

TAFKAlawhec

Deleted User wrote: »

is it in Norway, can't remember but they switched of FM and the national broadcaster lost huge numbers of listeners, FM switch off could be the final nail in RTE's Coffin !

NRK were estimated to have lost about 10% of their listeners with the FM switch off ('xcept for low-powered FM broadcasters) in their country, being attributed to a mixture of listeners not using the DAB+ platform after FM switch off, and that the introduction of two national ensembles across Norway in parallel gave a lot more choice to radio listeners that didn't have access to such a selection before, thus diluting the available audience.


I don't see RTÉ looking to abandon FM as a national platform any time soon. Their DAB network is stuck in limbo with no coverage growth now for several years mainly down to a lack of financial resources to be able to significantly move on from what they have at present. And to be fair the FM commercial stations in the ROI, especially the locals, are hardly enthusiastic about DAB themselves, more competition in their local patches is the last thing they want and they'll put up the blocks where they can.


If any other European country is going to be next to switch off their FM transmitters in favour of DAB, it's likely to be Switzerland.


Anyway back to long wave, I know that DRM capable transmitters were installed at Summerhill back in the 00's but presumably the rest of the infrastructure has largely remained unchanged since it was installed nearly 30 years ago apart from where patching up has been needed.


It's not unusual for medium to high powered LW & MW transmission sites to undergo periodic maintenance that can take a few days, the TDF station (Formerly France Inter) at Allouis and Europe 1 at Saarlouis have regular scheduled overnight breaks in transmission, and the old German LW transmitters used to have such breaks as well. Some maintenance can only really be done during daylight hours like mast painting. The MSF time signal station on 60kHz in Cumbria, England usually goes off for a couple of days solid once a year for maintenance - I remember a few years ago some site maintenance (and it's a relatively new site as well having moved from Rugby) overran to where the transmissions were off the air for nearly two weeks! :eek:



I'd be reasonably certain that 2RN will be keeping the TX on 252kHz in reasonable running order until the scheduled shut down date even if the transmission power isn't running anywhere near to the maximum possible and again that nothing out of the ordinary e.g. the old RTÉ1 TV transmission at Maghera on Channel B that used to have a maximum vision ERP of 100kW was by the time of its close down in the late 90's only outputting 1kW. Also a lot of the 405 line TV transmitters in the UK were on reduced power for some time before they closed down.


The future of radio broadcasting in LW looks bleak though, especially in western Europe. BBC Radio 4 will likely be gone within the next handful of years as the contract for electrical timer switching ends and that the money for transmitting could be directed elsewhere like plugging small holes in the Beeb's DAB coverage, RUV in Iceland are looking to wind down their LW broadcasts as they're getting expensive to maintain and have been testing on MW as a possible replacement. I'm sure RTL, RMC and Europe 1 keep looking to see wherever their LW transmissions remain viable for the French market and will have studied how it has affected France Inter. The Czech and Romanian LW stations are on a fraction of the power they used to be. OTOH Poland will probably keep 225kHz going for a while yet, Algeria only installed a new TX on 252kHz a few years ago so they'll likely keep going too, and the NRK TX facility in the Arctic circle at Ignoy is relatively a baby having opened in the early 00's and there's no indication of it being closed any time soon either. A lot of countries have disappeared off the band in the last 20-25 years - Germany, Sweden, Bulgaria, Russia, Belarus, Denmark (now just a part-time service), Italy, Turkey & Ukraine spring to mind, as well as a number of former USSR countries in central Asia (I think Turkmenistan on 279kHz is still going).

EdgeCase

I'd say if RTE switched off FM, a lot of people would just switch off RTE.

You'd end up with a lot of listening being driven to streaming on smartphones and stuff like that. It would be a ridiculous move

DVB-T for television had some enormous advantages : Better picture quality, particularly HD being the main one and the possibility of more choices on Saorview than analogue. DAB isn't as logical a step forward from FM and I really can't see much of a selling point.

RTE radio needs to maintain as many listeners as possible, and that means retaining FM for a long time to come.

RTE has a digital first agenda now and so Analogue is in their sights.

They would much rather people stream via apps than have to maintain transmitters so they can then have more money to pay ridiculous salaries and poor quality TV programs, they have a few good ones and some good radio shows but their content quality over all is poor, I never use their app for instance because there isn't anything I'd want to see on replay, I can see it on live tv and I don't want to eat into my limited bandwidth having no fixed line broadband here I rely on three with their excellent 4G service, 30-50 Mb/s , I installed external amplified antenna and went from 3-5 Mbs !

Anyway, as far as their radio streams go, on DAB you're talking 56 Kbps Mp2 ?WTF it's crap, and their internet streams are 56 Kbps Mp3, AC3 would be notably better at that low bitrate, mp3 is fine at higher bitrates but AC3 is always better.

If RTE want people streaming radio then they need to improve the quality, listening to KW 252 sounds much better in the sense that you can't hear those nasty digital over compressed noise. I'd prefer analogue Mono over this over compressed digital crap any day !

DAB offers absolutely nothing to the public so why try force it upon us ?

It's so messed up when you see how many DAB radios currys sell, in carlow the store has many and no DAB reception, you couldn't make this crap up !

No AM only FM or some DAB only imagine this ? that's manufacturers telling us they decide what way they want us to listen to radio, absolute joke, try do this in the USA where AM is going to be around for decades to come, why ? because it does the job and people are happy with it, it offers spectrum not available on FM.

The Cush

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

If any other European country is going to be next to switch off their FM transmitters in favour of DAB, it's likely to be Switzerland.

Previously announced, FM switch-off starting 2020 - https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/en/homepage/electronic-media/technology/digital-transmission/radio-industry-sets-a-course-to-phase-out-fm.html, now likely to start in 2021 - https://gallery.mailchimp.com/0b6e5d905a4bc37455ae88b71/files/c39dfc1a-e3a2-4784-86dc-d216c4f057a8/DigiMig_Working_Group_June_5_2018.pdf

On Nov. 14 last , the Broadcasting Authority of South Tyrol (RAS) announced a shutdown plan for VHF FM in the region - https://www.ras.bz.it/de/digitalradio-weiter-ausgebaut-ukw-abschaltplan-der-ras-von-der-landesregierung-genehmigt/.

On Dec 5th 19 FM transmitters at 6 sites were switched off, followed in 2018 by 22 transmitters at 7 sites. There were 226 FM transmitters which will be replaced by 82 DAB transmitters. Their VHF transmitters network is over 30 years old and requires replacement, the decommissioned transmitters will be used for spare parts to maintain the remaining network.

Also in Italy, from 2020, all radios sold are mandated to include a digital receiver.

Denmark likely to start FM switch-off in 2021.

People are happy with FM so why change to DAB at all ? there must be an advantage to the broadcaster because there is little to none for the consumer.

marno21

Absolute lunacy those plans to switch off FM. Lots of money wasted for no real benefit. FM + online is the way forward rather than spending a fortune on a totally outdated platform.

What's out dated ? not clear in your post.

marno21

Deleted User wrote: »

What's out dated ? not clear in your post.

Sorry, DAB is outdated. Investing in a platform based on the inefficient mp2 codec is not wise.

The Cush

Deleted User wrote: »

People are happy with FM so why change to DAB at all ? there must be an advantage to the broadcaster because there is little to none for the consumer.

Economics. According to industry papers it's cheaper for broadcasters to run a DAB network with more services than an FM network.

The reasons given in South Tyrol for switching off were a reduction in running costs and the costs associated with maintaining and replacing their 30 year old FM transmitters, also less transmitters required for DAB.

The Cush

marno21 wrote: »

Sorry, DAB is outdated. Investing in a platform based on the inefficient mp2 codec is not wise.

Is anyone rolling out a DAB only network now, surely it's all DAB+ HE-AACv2?

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

Sorry, DAB is outdated. Investing in a platform based on the inefficient mp2 codec is not wise.

MP2 os outdated but DAB+ uses AAC which is notably better at lower bitrates, 56 Kbps Mp3 V 56 Kbps AAC , the AAC stream is definitely better. But we need to go to higher bitrates if we're to benefit from digital, 128 Kbps or 256 better again.

Play 128 Kbps AAC through decent sound system and you can hear the digital noise.

I've listened to DRM ( aac) in stereo would you believe from Kuwait on Shortwave and it sounds far better than some mp3 internet streams......

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Is anyone rolling out a DAB only network now, surely it's all DAB+ HE-AACv2?

In Ireland ? no. Only RTE stations in very poor quality mp2 low bitrate and coverage is very very poor.

This is the thing, a single MW station can cover most or all the island of Ireland so why several DAB transmitters ?

The Cush

Deleted User wrote: »

In Ireland ? no. Only RTE stations in very poor quality mp2 low bitrate and coverage is very very poor.

Obviously I was referring to countries actually rolling out digital radio networks Germany, France, Italy etc. with DAB+, this doesn't include Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

I'd be reasonably certain that 2RN will be keeping the TX on 252kHz in reasonable running order until the scheduled shut down date even if the transmission power isn't running anywhere near to the maximum possible and again that nothing out of the ordinary e.g. the old RT TV transmission at Maghera on Channel B that used to have a maximum vision ERP of 100kW was by the time of its close down in the late 90's only outputting 1kW. Also a lot of the 405 line TV transmitters in the UK were on reduced power for some time before they closed down.

I suppose with the latter it was a case of trying to keep decrepit infrastructure running on a minimal budget until they could get governmental permission to switch it off. Turning down the wick saves energy obviously, but I wonder was the lack of availability of obsolete power valves a factor too - turn the power down and the lifespan goes up.

BBC Radio 4 will likely be gone within the next handful of years as the contract for electrical timer switching ends and that the money for transmitting could be directed elsewhere like plugging small holes in the Beeb's DAB coverage

What are they going to do for the shipping forecast?

And, if those rumours are to be believed, letting faraway nuclear ballistic missile subs know that the UK has not been vaporised and there's no need to launch yet?

We don't need digital radio in Ireland, even in Dublin there are more empty transmission slots on FM than there are broadcasters able to make enough money to keep going.

stephend2000

Mickey Mike wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The transmitter is solid state so I'd imagine it requires a lot less maintenance than one with valves.

It must be the antenna but they only did maintenance on that a few months ago.

A perfectly good transmitter if they ran it at full power, someone should nuy it off RTE but they're so anti analogue radio that they'd probably burn it rather than sell it.

I agree, that's the crack with RTE, They are even losing interest in the FM service with so many of the lower power txs running on lower power than what it should. RTE wants to go all out Digital.

I don’t think you can really say that RTÉ are losing interest in FM, I would even go as far to say that they were losing interest in DAB. They even alluded to this in their latest 5 year plan

I believe DAB is where the waste is, transmitters usually have a very long lifespan so replace the FM transmitters as needed and bam, problem solved.

Quackster

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

We don't need digital radio in Ireland, even in Dublin there are more empty transmission slots on FM than there are broadcasters able to make enough money to keep going.

Exactly this. DAB is a waste of time (and money) here as the demand to provide services doesn't exist, but in countries with higher population densities it obviously has benefits. And once a country rolls out a proper DAB network, it doesn't make economic sense maintaining a parallel FM service (except in DAB blackspots).

Why upgrade to DAB at all ? , ok FM transmitters are getting older, so replace them with FM transmitters and people can continue to use their old radios.

Gerry Wicklow

Deleted User wrote: »

Why upgrade to DAB at all ? , ok FM transmitters are getting older, so replace them with FM transmitters and people can continue to use their old radios.

There you go again. Expecting intelligence from the crowd that insists on re-inventing the wheel every time.

RTÉ/2RN don't do "off the shelf" when "off the wall" is an option

Haha, well my attitude to FM is if it's not broken don't fix it. Simple.

Mickey Mike

I firmly believe LW will be gone next year, but its important to keep one form of analogue transmission and let that be FM, and if needed new txs should be put in place on a case by case basis until such time they are all replaced and with proper power output, on a par with Today FM, they have an excellent signal output

Oscarziggy

Interesting read --- sorry if already posted .
http://savertelongwaveradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/LW252-IP-Jun2-EDIT.pdf

Regards

elperello

Oscarziggy wrote: »

Interesting read --- sorry if already posted .
http://savertelongwaveradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/LW252-IP-Jun2-EDIT.pdf

Regards

Thanks for posting.
Ireland, a cold house for emigrants then and now.

Mickey Mike

RTE Radio1 Long Wave 252, another year left in the service. Any progress made I wonder in the DAB+ (UK)?

Mailcoachinn

Not even a year left now and then it’s lights out for the final time. Does anyone know if there are any plans for the transmitter site? Will it be taken over by another station? Sold off to developers? Any ideas???

If the powers that be in RTE had their way the whole transmitter site would be destroyed such is their content for such an out dated technology as RTE see LW !

There's plans to preserve the site, I believe , luckily.

I would seriously doubt RTE would sell the transmitter or allow anyone to use it, as far as their concerned, LW should be forgotten about !

The tax payer could benefit from leasing Airtime or from the sale of it. There's many years of life in AM yet.

I like RTE Gold and it would be really good if they switched Gold to 252 instead of a crap DAB network, it's as if RTE don't want people listening to Gold but it's their best station in my opinion, Joe Duffy would complain !

Mickey Mike

The future of the LW252 site will be the same as Tullamore MW567, it will be left abandoned and disused, never again will RTE use the AM bands. RTE will not spend a single cent carrying RTE Gold or any other station. You will even see RTE start reducing the power output of the FM transmitters, like they have done with our local low power tx.
The focus is Digital from here on in as far as RTE is concerned.

Oscarziggy

RTE GOLD on 252 would certainly be interesting.
It's my Saorview bath time music station and would be great to receive it when out and about in addition to Manx Radio.
Regards

I just can't abide having to use the internet to receive a station I pay for which I should be able to receive via radio.

RTE need to realise that they need to start giving license payers what they want , not what RTE want or think we want !

I would love RTE Gold on LW or MW.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

The future of the LW252 site will be the same as Tullamore MW567, it will be left abandoned and disused, never again will RTE use the AM bands. RTE will not spend a single cent carrying RTE Gold or any other station. You will even see RTE start reducing the power output of the FM transmitters, like they have done with our local low power tx.
The focus is Digital from here on in as far as RTE is concerned.

DAB doesn't provide good coverage.

I was in Germany a few weeks ago and the Local SWR1 in the car on DAB+ broke up so many times it wasn't even funny, this is a country that was hell bent on destroying MW and have plans to Axe FM altogether.

To say my Partners dad was p1ssed was an understatement, until I showed him how to get back on good o'l FM.

My attitude, is this, if it's not broke then don't fix it.

Mailcoachinn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would love RTE Gold on LW or MW.

A lot of people would. I can’t see it happening though. Sure it would only make too much sense & this is RTE we are talking about

Mickey Mike

I listen to RTE radio via Saorview, a set top box with leads inserted into my Hifi stereo system, I know its a tall order but the sound quality is fantastic, RTE Gold as you can gather is crystal clear, all of them are.
If like LW power being reduced, what is the point, just listening to hiss, tear and noise.