The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

The Cush

Oscarziggy wrote: »

http://www.hildegarde.ie/longwave-radio-to-continue-for-the-benefit-of-diaspora-naughton/

Major antenna upgrade will ensure transmission of RTÉ longwave radio continues - Irish News

icdg

Boxx’s post has been deleted. I want to make clear that language such as was posted in that post is not welcome at all here. If Boxx had not deleted the post there would be a straight 48 hour ban with no warning. Given the post has been deleted I will leave it with a warning.

SPDUB

So 31 January 2022 according to that poster from a few weeks ago is apparently their target date

And given they apparently had knowledge of this development I presume it's accurate enough

Mickey Mike

Are they going to carry out all this maintenance and upgrade for the sake of 2 years and 8 months, what is this going to cost? I would rather see them restart Tullamore 567kHz , install a new solid state 500 kw transmitter.
What does the 252 mast intail to upgrade? And if anything it should move to 261kHz.

SPDUB

2 hours 8 months and that 31st January 2022 was a "at least until that date"

The Cush

SPDUB wrote: »

2 hours 8 months and that 31st January 2022 was a "at least until that date"

They will probably assess the situation closer to that time and take into consideration the UK's radio licensing regime for overseas radio stations.

elperello

I know a few old timers in Manchester and London who will welcome the continuation of RTE on Long Wave.
They know they will never again live in the country they had to leave in hard times but they like to keep in touch.

Mickey Mike

elperello wrote: »

I know a few old timers in Manchester and London who will welcome the continuation of RTE on Long Wave.
They know they will never again live in the country they had to leave in hard times but they like to keep in touch.

Better reception can be used with Internet or Freesat, Freesat is a once off payment.

elperello

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Better reception can be used with Internet or Freesat, Freesat is a once off payment.

I know but some of the old guys are not tech savvy and have no money to spare anyway.
You'd be surprised how many are on hard times. Social welfare is not so good over there.

Hotblack Desiato

No point keeping it nominally open if the power level allows it to be drowned out by Algeria. Typical of a politician with no tech knowledge to think the issue is resolved when it isn't.

Better reception? LW 252 is belting into the U.k, I heard it much clearer than many local MW stations from fishguard to Birmingham and back , clear as a bell in the car great quality for a mainly talk station, it’s more than good enough for RTÉ Radio 1.

I much prefer the AM sound than that highly compressed internet rubbish which is harsh and sounds awful.

Clear reception without the need for internet as it should be!

lgs 4

One thing that everyone is overlooking is Satellite radio. We have had satellite radio in Europe since the 1990s and a bit early in the US. You're saying to yourselves, what has this to do RTE Radio longwave. In the US there is a satellite radio service called Sirius Satellite Radio. Started back in 1989 and is an extremely popular way for people to listen to the radio in their cars or at home. From the US radio stations to International radio stations, all by satellite. Before people, start shouting at this post, its a subscription service. With prices ranging from $5.99 to $9.99 a month. I can't see why that commercial and public service radio broadcasters across Europe, can't amalgamate to form a Sirius like free to air satellite radio service for Europe. As it stands RTE Radio One can be heard all across Europe on Astra 2 28e but only on a Sky or Freesat box. Now with Sirius like service stations like RTE Gold be heard by satellite anywhere in Europe either in your car or at home. The main satellites that would have capacity and footprint are Astra 1 19e and Hotbird 13E. Their footprint covers as far the Aran Islands to Ukraine on Astra 1 19 e and with Hotbird 13E to North Africa. It would take investment by the radio stations and the car manufacturers to have suitable car radios installed and the makers of domestic and portable radios to come on come on board with satellite radios. In the US all the main car manufacturers fit satellite radio receivers as standard. Let's deal with the quality of sound .many people here have remarked about low bit rating of DAB.On Astra 1 19e many of the commercial radio stations and public service radio broadcasters in Germany.Broadcast in Dolby Digital sound by satellite with the bit ratings of 320 kbps stereo. Because of the wider bandwidth on satellite transponders in comparison terrestrial DAB transmitters.If it was to happen many medium wave and long wave radio stations would which to satellite For better sound and reception. This does poses the question of geographical listening. Some transponders could be on a narrow beam. This is what could be done if the investment was made.The technology is there.Just be utilised to its best.

Johnboy1951

lgs 4 wrote: »

One thing that everyone is overlooking is Satellite radio. We have had satellite radio in Europe since the 1990s and a bit early in the US. You're saying to yourselves, what has this to do RTE Radio longwave. In the US there is a satellite radio service called Sirius Satellite Radio. Started back in 1989 and is an extremely popular way for people to listen to the radio in their cars or at home. From the US radio stations to International radio stations, all by satellite. Before people, start shouting at this post, its a subscription service. With prices ranging from $5.99 to $9.99 a month. I can't see why that commercial and public service radio broadcasters across Europe, can't amalgamate to form a Sirius like free to air satellite radio service for Europe. As it stands RTE Radio One can be heard all across Europe on Astra 2 28e but only on a Sky or Freesat box. Now with Sirius like service stations like RTE Gold be heard by satellite anywhere in Europe either in your car or at home. The main satellites that would have capacity and footprint are Astra 1 19e and Hotbird 13E. Their footprint covers as far the Aran Islands to Ukraine on Astra 1 19 e and with Hotbird 13E to North Africa. It would take investment by the radio stations and the car manufacturers to have suitable car radios installed and the makers of domestic and portable radios to come on come on board with satellite radios. In the US all the main car manufacturers fit satellite radio receivers as standard. Let's deal with the quality of sound .many people here have remarked about low bit rating of DAB.On Astra 1 19e many of the commercial radio stations and public service radio broadcasters in Germany.Broadcast in Dolby Digital sound by satellite with the bit ratings of 320 kbps stereo. Because of the wider bandwidth on satellite transponders in comparison terrestrial DAB transmitters.If it was to happen many medium wave and long wave radio stations would which to satellite For better sound and reception. This does poses the question of geographical listening. Some transponders could be on a narrow beam. This is what could be done if the investment was made.The technology is there.Just be utilised to its best.

OK, but not limited to Sky or Freesat ...... you can even use a USB dongle.

To get to the question this raises ...... what is the roadblock in using the Astra transmissions for reception of radio in UK/IRE or other satellites in other locations?
Why would a specific 'Sirius-type' sat set up be required?

The only impediment I imagine is the Sat dish requirements ....... how is that managed for Sirius?

Thurston?

Sirius-type satellite radio, I assume can use some kind of omnidirectional aerial. It's broadcast at far lower frequencies than Ku band. (L & S band: 1-3 GHz.)

There probably aren't any satellites covering Europe equipped for it, never mind active services.

lgs 4

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

OK, but not limited to Sky or Freesat ...... you can even use a USB dongle.

To get to the question this raises ...... what is the roadblock in using the Astra transmissions for the reception of radio in UK/IRE or other satellites in other locations?
Why would a specific 'Sirius-type' sat set up be required?

The only impediment I imagine is the Sat dish requirements ....... how is that managed for Sirius?

You don,t need a satellite dish ,the home radio receiver or car radio locks on to the orbital satellite and the receiver does the rest .
Why a Sirius like model ,there needs to be a regulatory body to over see broadcasting regulations ,to ensure no propaganda or agenda driven station are given platform to promote propaganda.

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

OK, but not limited to Sky or Freesat ...... you can even use a USB dongle.

To get to the question this raises ...... what is the roadblock in using the Astra transmissions for reception of radio in UK/IRE or other satellites in other locations?
Why would a specific 'Sirius-type' sat set up be required?

The only impediment I imagine is the Sat dish requirements ....... how is that managed for Sirius?

lgs 4 wrote: »

You don,t need a satellite dish ,the home radio receiver or car radio locks on to the orbital satellite and the receiver does the rest .

This is what I was getting at ...... why not?

Previous answer covers it I guess.

Why a Sirius like model ,there needs to be a regulatory body to over see broadcasting regulations ,to ensure no propaganda or agenda driven station are given platform to promote propaganda.

mikeecho

I've used Sirius in North America, (in rental cars) the reason they have sat radio is because you can be driving out in the middle of nowhere for (100's) miles on end. No FM within range, and the crackling AM is full of avengelists.. Europe is a difference kettle of fish.

Europe is a lot more densely populated, and you're always within range of an FM signal*

*Norway is FM dead .. all dab.

TAFKAlawhec

lgs 4 wrote: »

One thing that everyone is overlooking is Satellite radio. We have had satellite radio in Europe since the 1990s and a bit early in the US. You're saying to yourselves, what has this to do RTE Radio longwave. In the US there is a satellite radio service called Sirius Satellite Radio. Started back in 1989 and is an extremely popular way for people to listen to the radio in their cars or at home. From the US radio stations to International radio stations, all by satellite. Before people, start shouting at this post, its a subscription service. With prices ranging from $5.99 to $9.99 a month. I can't see why that commercial and public service radio broadcasters across Europe, can't amalgamate to form a Sirius like free to air satellite radio service for Europe. As it stands RTE Radio One can be heard all across Europe on Astra 2 28e but only on a Sky or Freesat box. Now with Sirius like service stations like RTE Gold be heard by satellite anywhere in Europe either in your car or at home. The main satellites that would have capacity and footprint are Astra 1 19e and Hotbird 13E. Their footprint covers as far the Aran Islands to Ukraine on Astra 1 19 e and with Hotbird 13E to North Africa. It would take investment by the radio stations and the car manufacturers to have suitable car radios installed and the makers of domestic and portable radios to come on come on board with satellite radios. In the US all the main car manufacturers fit satellite radio receivers as standard. Let's deal with the quality of sound .many people here have remarked about low bit rating of DAB.On Astra 1 19e many of the commercial radio stations and public service radio broadcasters in Germany.Broadcast in Dolby Digital sound by satellite with the bit ratings of 320 kbps stereo. Because of the wider bandwidth on satellite transponders in comparison terrestrial DAB transmitters.If it was to happen many medium wave and long wave radio stations would which to satellite For better sound and reception. This does poses the question of geographical listening. Some transponders could be on a narrow beam. This is what could be done if the investment was made.The technology is there.Just be utilised to its best.

OK, a fair bit to dissect here...

One thing that everyone is overlooking is Satellite radio.

Not really, it's been brought up in this thread several times.

You're saying to yourselves, what has this to do RTE Radio longwave. In the US there is a satellite radio service called Sirius Satellite Radio. Started back in 1989 and is an extremely popular way for people to listen to the radio in their cars or at home.

1. It's called Sirius XM Satellite Radio, formed from a merger of both Sirius & XM that both provided DARS services under licence from the FCC in the United States. The merger was brought about because it was becoming clear that having two separate providers was not viable for either and was completed in 2008 (a bit like the Sky/BSB merger, except the resulting merger of Sirius & XM was a reasonably even share, whereas Sky had effectively taken over BSB despite it formally being a merger).


2. Sirius didn't begin full broadcasts until 2002.

From the US radio stations to International radio stations, all by satellite. Before people, start shouting at this post, its a subscription service. With prices ranging from $5.99 to $9.99 a month. I can't see why that commercial and public service radio broadcasters across Europe, can't amalgamate to form a Sirius like free to air satellite radio service for Europe.

1. The prices currently offered by Sirius XM in the USA according to their website ranges from $8 a month for an online-only "essentials" subscription up to $20.99 a month for their premium commercial pack - specialist subscriptions go further still up to $99.99 a month.


https://www.siriusxm.com/servlet/Satellite?c=SXM_PageDetail_C&childpagename=SXM/SXM_PageDetail_C/SXMPlatformContent&cid=1293939956065&pagename=SXM/Wrapper&intcmp=LM_know-block_subscribe_see-packages-and-pricing



2. I can see why - what general benefit would it be to European radio broadcasters to spend billions of Euros to start a new radio distribution system from scratch when without subscriptions there is no return of investment via such a route?

As it stands RTE Radio One can be heard all across Europe on Astra 2 28e but only on a Sky or Freesat box.

Incorrect. Anyone who can receive the Astra 2E transponder (11914 MHz, Horizontal polarity) that RTÉ Radio 1 is broadcast from can receive it with any DVB-S capable receiver, not just limited to branded receivers from Sky or Freesat. (See attachment for footprint)

Now with Sirius like service stations like RTE Gold be heard by satellite anywhere in Europe either in your car or at home. The main satellites that would have capacity and footprint are Astra 1 19e and Hotbird 13E. Their footprint covers as far the Aran Islands to Ukraine on Astra 1 19 e and with Hotbird 13E to North Africa.

Okay...


1. A Sirius XM - like service relies on several in-orbit satellites broadcasting on frequencies in the S-Band between 2.32 & 2.345 GHz. Outside of the Americas these frequencies are in use on a terrestrial basis for other technologies, an increasing one being TD-LTE (Band 40), one example being O2 in the UK.


2. Both the Eutelsat Hotbird and Astra 1 satellite constellations are Ku Band (10.7 - 12.75 GHz) only satellites (exception - Astra 1L also carries a Ka Band payload). In ITU Region 1 (which includes Europe) these frequencies are allocated on a primary basis to satellite use to be received by fixed terminals with a high-gain aerial, normally a parabolic dish.


3. The radiated powers are limited by agreement between the ITU, countries and relevant organisations to help reduce interference between close by satellites transmitting to the same area on Earth. Taken fundamentally into account is the beamwidth of parabolic antennas providing discrimination between such positioned satellites - for this reason satellites spaced only 3 to 4 degrees apart can use the same frequencies for transmitting to the same or overlapping areas, usually with changes in polarity to give additional protection to interference from each other. A receiving aerial that can't discriminate between two signals coming from six degrees apart isn't suitable.


4. Ku Band frequencies also suffer higher from "rain fade" than on lower frequencies in the L, S and C Bands (from 1 to 4.8 GHz) as well as being more easily stopped by obstacles like tree leaves; again making them undesirable for reception on the move.


5. Even still, Sirius XM's S-Band satellite transmissions are only good where there is open sky to see them. Thus they require lots (thousands?) of terrestrial repeater stations to fill in coverage gaps, notably in urban and suburban areas where there are tall buildings, trees etc. to ensure continuous coverage. Also the continental US lies south of 50 degrees north with most of the population in Canada living fairly close to the US border too - in Europe much of the continent lies above 50 degrees north, including all of Ireland, almost all of the UK, and the Scandinavian and Baltic countries. Using a geostationary orbit in these places results in a low angle of elevation and thus can be easily blocked.**


** Interestingly the original Sirius broadcasts used satellites not in a geostationary orbit, but a Molniya orbit where three satellites followed an elliptical orbit that allowed them to be seen well above the horizon at high latitudes - this did mean that the satellites didn't stay in one place in the sky at all times, but the conditions for reception meant that this wasn't critical compared to XM which used satellites in geostationary orbit, meaning XM had to install more terrestrial repeaters than Sirius did. IIRC all the new satellites in the Sirius XM transmission system are in geostationary orbit.



So overall, no. It's not really a option.

It would take investment by the radio stations and the car manufacturers to have suitable car radios installed and the makers of domestic and portable radios to come on come on board with satellite radios. In the US all the main car manufacturers fit satellite radio receivers as standard.

And investment will only occur if those investing in such a setup expect to see a return and profit in that investment. Without going in too deep, that isn't going to happen. Also while most cars nowadays sold in the USA do include DARS receivers, they aren't fitted "as standard" - those which are sold with such a receiver usually have a free trial subscription available to the new owners, and retention rates (i.e. those that subscribe after the trial ends) are in the region of 40%. Not bad by many standards, but it's still a case that the majority of such new car buyers don't think Sirius XM is worth the additional premium.

Let's deal with the quality of sound .many people here have remarked about low bit rating of DAB.On Astra 1 19e many of the commercial radio stations and public service radio broadcasters in Germany.Broadcast in Dolby Digital sound by satellite with the bit ratings of 320 kbps stereo.

The issues regarding sound quality on DAB are done more on a cost basis than what the platform is technically capable of. DAB, and especially DAB+, can give excellent quality sound if the bitrate allocated to stations is high enough but of course this means restricting the amount of stations available in an ensemble/multiplex. The majority of people can put up with a less "hi-fi" sound for general radio listening day to day, broadcasters know this and the commercial ones especially will crunch how much money they can get in return having say two stations using 128kbps compared to one using 256kbps. Those whom want the very best quality available from a station (e.g. FLAC) will almost all have went down the internet streaming route.


I don't have a setup at present to monitor what's on 19.2 east, but a check on Lyngsat indicates that there are only seven Dolby Digital radio stations in that orbit position, six German and one Austrian. And for all the German stations, they're all stations from public broadcasters that concentrate on classical music, "serious" music and cultural programming.


Out of interest, most of the TV and radio stations at 28 east receivable in Ireland have audio bitrates between 128 and 192kbps - the low budget channels obviously having the lowest audio bitrates. The exceptions are most of the BBC stations which use 256kbps MP2, and HD channels which use MP2, AAC or Dolby Digital audio.


Interestingly, one of the common complaints about Sirius XM radio through its satellite platform is its general audio quality. I've no experience of it myself but I have heard it being roughly comparable to a 64kbps MP3.

Because of the wider bandwidth on satellite transponders in comparison terrestrial DAB transmitters.If it was to happen many medium wave and long wave radio stations would which to satellite For better sound and reception. This does poses the question of geographical listening. Some transponders could be on a narrow beam. This is what could be done if the investment was made.The technology is there.Just be utilised to its best.

Well that's kind of redundant to go over again at this stage, but there's a few things to add.


The market for radio in the USA & Canada is a very different one from that across Europe.


1. The landmass covering the USA & Canada has one major language spoken across it - English - with significant Spanish and French speaking minority communities as well as those whom have a decent understanding of it as a second language. Having a pan-North American broadcasting platform broadcasting mostly in English with some Spanish or French stations also thrown in for good measure to a potential audience of around 350 million is definitely do-able.


2. In contrast, Europe has a lot, lot more linguistic diversity with no one language significantly dominating the continent. English, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Polish, Swedish, Portuguese, Czech & Slovak*, Hungarian, Slovenian, Croatian & Serbian*, Greek, Bulgarian, Romanian, Russian, Ukrainian, Norwegian, Danish, Finnish, Estonian, Latvian, Dutch/Flemish* etc. etc. Research over decades of radio listening and TV broadcasting has shown that except under some certain circumstances (like watching a soccer game) nearly everyone restricts their daily viewing and listening to their first language if it is available to them. One can only imagine the amount of duplication required for a certain genre in even just a handful of languages, not to mention audience fracture.



*Placed together as the speaker of one can largely follow listening to the other.



3. Sirius XM makes a compelling offer of a large amount of advertisement free stations to listen to compared to the terrestrial FM & MW stations in the USA, can provide genuine coast-to-coast programming even if you're located miles from your nearest neighbour, and the stations on it have far fewer regulations of content compared to terrestrial stations - it's one of the reasons Howard Stern signed with Sirius, where he had much more freedom for show development without his host station constantly telling him to tone down the stuff that would land them with FCC fines. For around US$11 a month it's not a bad offering of content.


4. However in Europe there is a long, proud tradition of quality public service broadcasting that is generally lacking in the USA (and to a lesser extent in Canada). Wherever it's news & current affairs, various form of music from pop, rock, jazz, classical, world etc. to cultural & sports programmes, nearly all PSBs in Europe have at least one station at or near the top of listening figures in their country. Even where several commercial stations in a country compete alongside a roughly equivalent PSB, regulations surrounding advertising and sponsorship means you hear much more music & presenter talk in comparison to advertising. The differences in this between much of Europe and the USA makes them very different games to be in. Not to mention that even radio stations that exist on satellite platforms are still licenced & regulated from the country they broadcast from on a not largely different basis as terrestrial stations.



5. There was over a decade ago a satellite-based radio platform that could be received with simple aerials across much of Europe inc. Ireland - it was called Worldspace. It was a sort of "happy accident" that its coverage extended that far north as it was supposed to be aimed only at African audiences with a slight overspill into southern Europe. It broadcast on L-Band frequencies (around 1470MHz or thereabouts) via the Afristar satellite and was a monumental commercial flop, attracting little attention even when all its radio broadcasts were free to air. When it went tits up the was no interest from anyone else in using their satellites to broadcast like Worldspace did. It just wasn't a viable operation.


So overall there's no case for a DARS-like system covering Europe when the main broadcasters concentrate on FM, or in some cases DAB(+) with either the internet or DVB based fixed reception platforms (i.e. DVB-T, DVB-S & DVB-C) providing complementary options for very-high quality audio and/or offshoot stations. Adding a new-to-Europe DARS based platform from scratch would be about as liked as a hole in the head.

Footnote: The Eutelsat 10A satellite (10 degrees east) was equipped with an S-Band payload with a possible intention for it to be used for European-wide broadcasting services. However there was a malfunction during in-orbit testing and thus isn't usable.

radio works, cheap to buy and everyone has one , we already pay enough to access RTÉ and people shouldn’t be forced to have internet subscriptions or satellite dishes to receive radio, never mind subscribe to a satellite service.

Radio is old tech but it works.

RTÉ is only as good as its quality of its media and no form of digital or analogue switch off can improve this.

RTÉ program quality has severely deteriorated as the lost/fired some very decent people and abused them over the years and this is the greatest downfall for RTÉ and no female , liberal or digital agenda will save them in the end , the internet has gobbled them up and spat them out as they struggle to attract younger generations even with their modern horrible music, it’s not working and if the best they got is Ryan tubridy for radio one then it’s a sad day for RTÉ.

icdg

Theres been some very good posts regarding US/Canadian satellite radio here and without wishing to take away from the quality and the effort the posters put into them, I have to stress that it’s off topic for both this forum and this thread

225LongWave

https://www.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/iw-2.jpg
IRISH WORLD 4th MAY "REPRIEVE FOR RTE LONG-WAVE"

icdg wrote: »

Theres been some very good posts regarding US/Canadian satellite radio here and without wishing to take away from the quality and the effort the posters put into them, I have to stress that it’s off topic for both this forum and this thread

TAFKAlawhec

Deleted User wrote: »

radio works, cheap to buy and everyone has one , we already pay enough to access RTÉ and people shouldn’t be forced to have internet subscriptions or satellite dishes to receive radio, never mind subscribe to a satellite service.

A satellite dish is simply an aerial with a small box of electronics on it. Any tuner looking to pick up an off-air signal needs an aerial even if it's just a coil on a ferrite rod for MW & LW or a small extendable bit of metal for FM. Given their ubiquity these days along with one for reception from 28 east in Ireland or the UK inc. LNB costing about the same as a decent outdoor UHF aerial, the hang ups over satellite dishes should really have been gotten over by this stage. The only ones right to feel aggrieved are those whom for any reason are unable to put up one.

(As a side note, for a serious radio listener whom wants to listen to stations across Europe, North Africa & the Middle East, a satellite receiver dedicated to radio listening is a cheap way to listen to them. Doesn't necessarily need to be listened only through a TV either. A satellite dish with a triple LNB set up for 28, 19 & 13 east will bring in a wealth of stations without needing internet connectivity. There's loads of Openbox/Skybox's around lying unused ever since Sky managed to stop the "gift" racket where you can probably get one for free from someone you know.)

Deleted User wrote: »

Radio is old tech but it works.


RTÉ is only as good as its quality of its media and no form of digital or analogue switch off can improve this.

That goes for any form of media or entertainment outlet. It's not just something RTE has to juggle.

Deleted User wrote: »

RTÉ program quality has severely deteriorated as the lost/fired some very decent people and abused them over the years and this is the greatest downfall for RTÉ and no female , liberal or digital agenda will save them in the end , the internet has gobbled them up and spat them out as they struggle to attract younger generations even with their modern horrible music, it’s not working and if the best they got is Ryan tubridy for radio one then it’s a sad day for RTÉ.

Firstly, opinions relating to the spoken & visual output of RTE programming are simply that - opinion. Their relevance to technical matters concerning broadcasting are moot.

Secondly, elders have complained about the lifestyles, interests and culture of generations younger than them since at least as far back Ancient Greece. Been the case since then, will be the case for a long time to come. Plenty of people will always need to moan about something. Again, not really relevant to technical matters unless it concerns the methods of access to them.

Finally, it's a bit of a contradiction to to bemoan about RTE perusing a "digital agenda" while with the same breath mentioning how internet content "has gobbled them up and spat them out" particularly with young adults - if the latter is the case then RTE going towards a "digital agenda" is exactly what they should be doing as a semi-state enterprise primarily functioning as a national public broadcaster, reaching out to as wide an audience range as practical with a variety of programming. This is in itself not an excuse to neglect their audience whom access their services via offline means, but like many other industries it has to adapt to changes - to not do so means that at its worst it will no longer exist, while at its best become an irrelevance.

As an example, an RTE in 2019 whose radio network had Radio 1 on 567kHz as its main broadcasting outlet with the only other way to listen being on a time-shared FM network with RnaG with an unreformed 2FM stuck with the same presenters giving an average listener age that would have made that for BBC Radio 1 in the early 90's look like spring chickens, with no other platform to access them (no internet streaming, no podcasts, no DVB-S or DVB-T carriage etc.) and sticking rigidly to linear formats would quite rightly be denounced as dinosaurs that either needed slaying or a complete reorganisation to bring them into 21st century relevance.

TAFKAlawhec

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

A satellite dish is simply an aerial with a small box of electronics on it. Any tuner looking to pick up an off-air signal needs an aerial even if it's just a coil on a ferrite rod for MW & LW or a small extendable bit of metal for FM. Given their ubiquity these days along with one for reception from 28 east in Ireland or the UK inc. LNB costing about the same as a decent outdoor UHF aerial, the hang ups over satellite dishes should really have been gotten over by this stage. The only ones right to feel aggrieved are those whom for any reason are unable to put up.

Many people can't put up satellite dishes, fact and shouldn't have to have TV on to listen to radio, that's being ridiculous.

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

Secondly, elders have complained about the lifestyles, interests and culture of generations younger than them since at least as far back Ancient Greece. Been the case since then, will be the case for a long time to come. Plenty of people will always need to moan about something. Again, not really relevant to technical matters unless it concerns the methods of access to them.

So what, over 30's are the majority of RTE R 1 listeners. Not 20 something so don't play the genre of music they listen to if there is a genre for it !

I'm far from an OAP !

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

Finally, it's a bit of a contradiction to to bemoan about RTE perusing a "digital agenda" while with the same breath mentioning how internet content "has gobbled them up and spat them out" particularly with young adults - if the latter is the case then RTE going towards a "digital agenda" is exactly what they should be doing as a semi-state enterprise primarily functioning as a national public broadcaster, reaching out to as wide an audience range as practical with a variety of programming. This is in itself not an excuse to neglect their audience whom access their services via offline means, but like many other industries it has to adapt to changes - to not do so means that at its worst it will no longer exist, while at its best become an irrelevance.

It's not a contradiction, RTE are trying to gain the audience of younger generations instead of keeping their focus on keeping current listeners.

RTE can not compete with youtube or Netflix and their not the only public broadcaster and their own quality of entertainment is not fit for flushing down toilets.

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

As an example, an RTE in 2019 whose radio network had Radio 1 on 567kHz as its main broadcasting outlet with the only other way to listen being on a time-shared FM network with RnaG with an unreformed 2FM stuck with the same presenters giving an average listener age that would have made that for BBC Radio 1 in the early 90's look like spring chickens, with no other platform to access them (no internet streaming, no podcasts, no DVB-S or DVB-T carriage etc.) and sticking rigidly to linear formats would quite rightly be denounced as dinosaurs that either needed slaying or a complete reorganisation to bring them into 21st century relevance.

So they should change for the sake for changing ?

No disrespect but please try keep your replies a bit shorter, you tend to ramble, is it just me ? perhaps I'm just tired !

225LongWave

https://mediumwave.info/news.html
3 May 2019. Algeria Chaine 3 252kHz Silent

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

A satellite dish is simply an aerial with a small box of electronics on it. Any tuner looking to pick up an off-air signal needs an aerial even if it's just a coil on a ferrite rod for MW & LW or a small extendable bit of metal for FM. Given their ubiquity these days along with one for reception from 28 east in Ireland or the UK inc. LNB costing about the same as a decent outdoor UHF aerial, the hang ups over satellite dishes should really have been gotten over by this stage. The only ones right to feel aggrieved are those whom for any reason are unable to put up one.

(As a side note, for a serious radio listener whom wants to listen to stations across Europe, North Africa & the Middle East, a satellite receiver dedicated to radio listening is a cheap way to listen to them. Doesn't necessarily need to be listened only through a TV either. A satellite dish with a triple LNB set up for 28, 19 & 13 east will bring in a wealth of stations without needing internet connectivity. There's loads of Openbox/Skybox's around lying unused ever since Sky managed to stop the "gift" racket where you can probably get one for free from someone you know.)



That goes for any form of media or entertainment outlet. It's not just something RTE has to juggle.




Firstly, opinions relating to the spoken & visual output of RTE programming are simply that - opinion. Their relevance to technical matters concerning broadcasting are moot.

Secondly, elders have complained about the lifestyles, interests and culture of generations younger than them since at least as far back Ancient Greece. Been the case since then, will be the case for a long time to come. Plenty of people will always need to moan about something. Again, not really relevant to technical matters unless it concerns the methods of access to them.

Finally, it's a bit of a contradiction to to bemoan about RTE perusing a "digital agenda" while with the same breath mentioning how internet content "has gobbled them up and spat them out" particularly with young adults - if the latter is the case then RTE going towards a "digital agenda" is exactly what they should be doing as a semi-state enterprise primarily functioning as a national public broadcaster, reaching out to as wide an audience range as practical with a variety of programming. This is in itself not an excuse to neglect their audience whom access their services via offline means, but like many other industries it has to adapt to changes - to not do so means that at its worst it will no longer exist, while at its best become an irrelevance.

As an example, an RTE in 2019 whose radio network had Radio 1 on 567kHz as its main broadcasting outlet with the only other way to listen being on a time-shared FM network with RnaG with an unreformed 2FM stuck with the same presenters giving an average listener age that would have made that for BBC Radio 1 in the early 90's look like spring chickens, with no other platform to access them (no internet streaming, no podcasts, no DVB-S or DVB-T carriage etc.) and sticking rigidly to linear formats would quite rightly be denounced as dinosaurs that either needed slaying or a complete reorganisation to bring them into 21st century relevance.

kazoo106

Interesting how good it is on the Czech and Polish SDR's with Algeria off air

Thurston?

Deleted User wrote: »

... Radio is old tech but it works.

Indeed it does.

Don't forget that outside your narrow definition i.e. analogue audio, all of this wireless stuff is radio ...

225LongWave

Another forum linking Jan 2011 news of "Rioting in Algeria" with close of LW252 Tipaza
Judging by flutter on RTE might suggest they are trialling DRM at lower daytime power?

dxhound2005

RTE is off air for 8 hours today from 9 am, planned outage. I can hear Algeria at 1 pm fairly strong.

Mickey Mike

It would save them a lot of hassle if they switched it off all together and put it out on its miserary, the Irish abroad have so many options in receiving R1 and concentrate on improving the FM network and bringing it up to Today FM standards.

The money would be better spent on bringing back 567 Khz to be honest.

I'd love to hear Gold on 567 Khz, far better than listening to Radio 1. The Quality on Digital and internet is beyond a joke, yes I know AM V digital but the high compression is just not nice to listen to at all and I find it fatiguing.

I fell well out of love with internet radios when there was a blackout of all the saved stations, People had to enter the stations again manually after the company who control the list of stations went bust, think of it as DNS for internet radio and it just shows how vulnerable the internet really is the impact was global and huge ! it can and will happen again. I haven't bothered to re-register and add all the stations again.

galtee boy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The money would be better spent on bringing back 567 Khz to be honest.

I'd love to hear Gold on 567 Khz, far better than listening to Radio 1. The Quality on Digital and internet is beyond a joke, yes I know AM V digital but the high compression is just not nice to listen to at all and I find it fatiguing.

I fell well out of love with internet radios when there was a blackout of all the saved stations, People had to enter the stations again manually after the company who control the list of stations went bust, think of it as DNS for internet radio and it just shows how vulnerable the internet really is the impact was global and huge ! it can and will happen again. I haven't bothered to re-register and add all the stations again.

What do mean blackout of saved stations ? I use Tunein and BBC Sounds and all stations are there all the time.

galtee boy

galtee boy wrote: »

What do mean blackout of saved stations ? I use Tunein and BBC Sounds and all stations are there all the time.

Tune in radio use their own database of stations internet radios don’t and the issue is that there is a flood of internet radios that can’t be upgraded, too old , not supported by updates etc so they’re fit for the bin , the only way to save them is to enter the ip address and port number manually, can you just imagine that hassle that would involve ?

BBC player and other apps like RTÉ are updated by themselves and so this won’t be an issue but unfortunately internet radios are very different and rely on a 3rd party service.

Radio stations should take note before they go shutting off analogue services because they are in control of their own network and nothing can stop them getting out if they want and world wide with shortwave if they want too.

the Likes of tune in censors stations now too and there are stations removed because of their left winger liberal politics, they don’t care about free speech as many companies no longer do now either such as google and Facebook who continually remove content because it goes against their agenda and politics.

It’s a sad time because more and more content is being removed daily from these platforms and sooner or later the whole World Wide Web will be like China and North Korea if a stop is not put to this.

Ireland is also a good example of where no free speech exists and we were highly criticized in a recent world wide study the source I can’t remember right now. So it’s even more important we can access material from outside of Ireland another reason I like shortwave radio.

Sorry for going on on a bit of a rant but I’m a believer in radio for many reasons.

galtee boy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Tune in radio use their own database of stations internet radios don’t and the issue is that there is a flood of internet radios that can’t be upgraded, too old , not supported by updates etc so they’re fit for the bin , the only way to save them is to enter the ip address and port number manually, can you just imagine that hassle that would involve ?

BBC player and other apps like RTÉ are updated by themselves and so this won’t be an issue but unfortunately internet radios are very different and rely on a 3rd party service.

Radio stations should take note before they go shutting off analogue services because they are in control of their own network and nothing can stop them getting out if they want and world wide with shortwave if they want too.

the Likes of tune in censors stations now too and there are stations removed because of their left winger liberal politics, they don’t care about free speech as many companies no longer do now either such as google and Facebook who continually remove content because it goes against their agenda and politics.

It’s a sad time because more and more content is being removed daily from these platforms and sooner or later the whole World Wide Web will be like China and North Korea if a stop is not put to this.

Ireland is also a good example of where no free speech exists and we were highly criticized in a recent world wide study the source I can’t remember right now. So it’s even more important we can access material from outside of Ireland another reason I like shortwave radio.

Sorry for going on on a bit of a rant but I’m a believer in radio for many reasons.

Ok, you're more passionate about radio than me, I used to use an internet radio, but now I mainly use the radio players/apps on my phone and bluetooth to a good quality speaker and do the same in the car. I just want the BBC stations mainly and Classic FM on a Sunday morning. With the generous data allowances given now by the phone companies, streaming radio for long durations is not an issue anymore. Even the Alexa speaker makes a reasonably good internet radio player now and you can just ask it to change stations without touching a button!!

galtee boy

galtee boy wrote: »

Ok, you're more passionate about radio than me, I used to use an internet radio, but now I mainly use the radio players/apps on my phone and bluetooth to a good quality speaker and do the same in the car. I just want the BBC stations mainly and Classic FM on a Sunday morning. With the generous data allowances given now by the phone companies, streaming radio for long durations is not an issue anymore. Even the Alexa speaker makes a reasonably good internet radio player now and you can just ask it to change stations without touching a button!!

Yes I am very passionate about radio for several reasons it should coexist with digital platforms and should always be there as a backup especially longwave and medium wave which can cover huge distances with just one single transmitter and doesn’t need a web of cables and 3rd party providers or subscriptions and I’m also a fan of radio technology,

I hold an amateur radio license now since May and just loving transmitting on shortwave , you never know where your signal will end up or who you’re going to hear and I love getting out long distance with low power, today for instance I got from Germany to Belarus , about 1300 kms with just 5 watts of power and an antenna 20 feet from the ground. It just amazes me ! You can get much much further with the right conditions and only 5 watts. I was out in the sticks with my portable transceiver for 5 hrs, so yes I do love the technology but it was a lovely day here in Germany so I had to get out.

I wouldn’t have Alexa anywhere near me lol.

If you like the BBC , they block high quality streams outside the UK but if you use a vpn with a uk ip you can get the high quality streams.

Johnboy1951

Deleted User wrote: »

Tune in radio use their own database of stations internet radios don’t and the issue is that there is a flood of internet radios that can’t be upgraded, too old , not supported by updates etc so they’re fit for the bin , the only way to save them is to enter the ip address and port number manually, can you just imagine that hassle that would involve ? ........

Do these internet radios not have the facility to use a channel list from a LAN attached storage device?

A list you can create once yourself and use for evermore .....

225LongWave

https://www.2rn.ie/site-summerhill-co-meath-complete-outage-23rdnov/

Off-air 10.00 - 17.00 23rd November on a Saturday !

dxhound2005 wrote: »

RTE is off air for 8 hours today from 9 am, planned outage. I can hear Algeria at 1 pm fairly strong.

225LongWave

https://www.2rn.ie/site-summerhill-co-meath-complete-outage-23rd-nov/m

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Do these internet radios not have the facility to use a channel list from a LAN attached storage device?

A list you can create once yourself and use for evermore .....

dxhound2005

225LongWave wrote: »

https://www.2rn.ie/site-summerhill-co-meath-complete-outage-23rdnov/

Off-air 10.00 - 17.00 23rd November on a Saturday !

That link is not working for me. I saw the notification on the 2rn Twitter.

2rn-Summerhill, Co Meath Complete outage RTÉ Radio 1 Long Wave for 8Hrs between 09:00 and 17:00 10th July 2019

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Do these internet radios not have the facility to use a channel list from a LAN attached storage device?

A list you can create once yourself and use for evermore .....

Not that I’m aware of but even if it did it would require manual updating.

SPDUB

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That link is not working for me. I saw the notification on the 2rn Twitter.

2rn-Summerhill, Co Meath Complete outage RTRadio 1 Long Wave for 8Hrs between 09:00 and 17:00 10th July 2019

Which for some reason they didn't put on the engineering notices on Aertel which is what I checked when I noticed it off air

A Teddy bear

RTE LW 252 will be off air from Monday October 14th until Friday December 20th .

RTÉ are taking the p1ss!

Are they trying their utmost to p1ss people off so they’ll give up on LW ?

Or are they trying to give the impression that this ancient technology is not worth all this maintenance?

A Teddy bear

The mast will tilt over unless they do the work.

Mickey Mike

When it will resume broadcasting on the 20/12/19 you can be sure we won't notice any improvement in quality, it will sound trashy as ever.

A Teddy bear

Mickey Mike wrote: »

I wonder will it, you never know it might run until 2030, by then a lot of the old crowd will be gone. I'll be next in the firing line.

That's because the work isn't to improve the signal, it's to stop the mast from tilting over.

oK, sorry to go a bit off topic with this post but Oh My God, I have never received such a stable long distance DRM transmission, this is coming from china, 30 Kw and no break up, amazing stable connection ! 30 Kw absolutely flabbergasted !

Since this thread has some interest and considering LW 252 is DRM capable I thought it was appropriate and considering it was brought up before.

The only real issue I have with DRM is the usual very low bitrate of transmissions and this is no exception only it's worse than normal, 11 Kbps, analogue SW sounds so much better but the thing that impresses me so much is that this signal has produce absolutely no breakup. the quality is woeful though. Surely higher bitrate isn't much more expensive on SW ?

The furthest DRM I received so far is Radio Kuwait which transmits in about 26 Kbps but in Stereo ! yes Stereo on Shortwave, amazing.

But..............no Fading on this transmission, Coming from China, No static .....

Gerry Wicklow

@Mad Lad
:eek: WOW :eek:

Mickey Mike

Can we put pressure on the government to launch a Digital Radio Mondiale broadcast? or is there any point.

dxhound2005

Urumqi is in the far west of China, nearest Europe, but that is very impressive reception. The locals, mostly ethnic Uyghur Muslims, are having a hard time from the central government.

I have a QSL card from the station in the next province Gansou, exactly like this one, with the same handwriting. I think the station is gone now.

http://dxcorner.narod.ru/photo06.jpg

Mine is from April 1982, but not posted until Sept 1983. I read that the local Chinese stations were not allowed to QSL, but the policy changed around that time. 4865 kHz is in the 60 Metre tropical band, and the reason I QSL'd them was because the programme I heard was English lessons for the local listeners.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Can we put pressure on the government to launch a Digital Radio Mondiale broadcast? or is there any point.

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Can we put pressure on the government to launch a Digital Radio Mondiale broadcast? or is there any point.

The problem for DRM in Europe is the internet, RTE and most major broadcasters would switch off every single radio transmitter tomorrow if they thought they could get away with it, FM and DAB included and quite a few major MW transmissions/transmitters have been shut down and their antennas destroyed.

DRM came late and due to licensing, made it too expensive. It's only now it's changing and fast but mostly in Asia which is big , very big for DRM because obviously the distance to cover and population mean MW/LW and even SW is just as important today as ever, it's a big deal and more and more new cars are coming with DRM in Asia, which covers MW, LW, SW and FM and more and more companies are pushing DRM.

RTE have a digital first agenda today which means they want us using apps more and more and they will probably look at making everything digital in another few years as FM transmitters age but FM can be made digital if they want using DRM and existing transmitters.

RTE made a good move to make the 252 transmitter solid state which would make it far cheaper to maintain than one with valves. It's also DRM capable , I'm not so sure if they can transmit in Stereo but the technology exists as I've witnessed from radio Kuwait on SW. Imagine 252 in Stereo DRM ?

The only real issue I have with DRM is the sound quality is usually very poor, people are brainwashed into thinking digital is better, and we see that RTE's Digital Radio transmissions are very poor quality MP2 , a technology invented in 1985 !!! But RTE sell it to the Public as better quality just because it's digital.

DRM used a much more advanced compression than RTE's DAB, DRM uses xHE-AAC at up to 38 Kbps for 10 Khz worth of Bandwidth and 72 Kbps for 20 Khz of Bandwidth but the majority use 10 Khz bandwidth. 72 Kbps would be quite acceptable.

According to Wiki DRM can for FM use existing transmitters cutting costs.

The BBC in 2007 tested DRM in FM in Edinburgh and used an existing 10 Kw transmitter at 1 Kw for a claimed same coverage as the 10 Kw on Analogue , if we're to believe that, however , considering the fact I could receive a 30 Kw transmission almost perfectly from China with only 2 x fractions of a second dropout would make me consider this efficiency gain observed in Edinburgh was probably correct.

There are no cheap DRM radio's yet available outside of Asia which is a problem, a new chip available could change this.

I can see the USA and Canada adopt DRM before Europe because of the vast distances covered.

WBCQ have a new 500 Kw transmitter which I think is DRM capable.

DRM can offer superior reception to those suffering from the noise of modern electronic which plagues AM today but this noise may also effect the signal quality.

If DRM is widely adopted I would hope for better than 11-16 Kbps, I would say that 32 Kbps should be the absolute minimum.