The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

TAFKAlawhec

On another matter - and this thread is as good as any, I found among my bookmarks a section of the ITU website (it isn't exactly the most user-friendly one in the world) that holds details and information concerning previous ITU and International Telegraph conferences...

https://www.itu.int/en/history/Pages/ConferencesCollection.aspx

...one link which I'd say will be of interest to those wanting more details concerning broadcasting in Region 1 in the LW & MW bands will be that concerning the regional (1 & 3) 1975 conference in Geneva concerning low and medium frequencies i.e. GE75...

https://www.itu.int/en/history/Pages/RadioConferencesRegional.aspx?conf=4.98

...scroll to the bottom of the page on the "Conference Outcomes" tab and you'll find PDF links to some documents - the ones of most likely interest are those of "Final Acts of the Regional Administrative LF/MF Broadcasting Conference (Regions 1 and 3) (Geneva, 1975)" and "Annex 1 (2nd edition - 1981) to the Regional Agreement (Geneva, 1975)". Unfortunately the Annex 1 3rd (1987) & 4th (1990) editions don't contain frequency allocation information that would be very useful and personally I've no plans to head out to Geneva to visit the ITU library, but the original "final acts" and second edition contain a lot of information concerning frequency allocations agreed upon at GE75 and also in its first few years up until 1981 in all of the world outside of the Americas (they are region 2).

There are some differences between the final acts/1st edition and 2nd edition that should be notable - one being that in the 1st edition the 612 kHz allocation for Ireland is listed as "Tullamore 3" whereas by the 2nd edition (RTÉ Radio 2 now on-air) this has changed to "Athlone" - also in the second edition are the Enniskillen MF allocations (693, 774, 873, 1053 & 1197 kHz) that weren't in the 1st edition. Also take into account that both the 1st and 2nd editions list the long wave allocations on their "old" frequencies before they were later on shifted down in stages by 2kHz in the late 80's/early 90's e.g. Ireland's allocation in these editions are on 254 kHz.

If you don't have the fastest of internet connections, be aware that the linked PDFs are quite big, and might take some time to download. But hopefully the PDFs will be of use to some, as it took myself years to try and track down these documents that could not be found elsewhere. Other conferences that also might be of interest include the "European VHF/UHF Broadcasting Conference (Special Regional Conference) (Stockholm, 1961)" which details allocations in the European Broadcast Area for analogue TV and FM radio allocations at VHF (Bands I, II & III) and UHF (Bands IV & V) (interesting to note some of the allocations on both sides of the border e.g. L/Derry was originally assigned as a main UHF station with horizontal polarisation while the Mohercrome site in Co. Cavan was also assigned as a UHF broadcast station but never came to fruition, with Clermont Carn instead serving most of the north-east), while the "Regional Administrative Conference for FM Sound Broadcasting in the VHF band (Region 1 and certain countries concerned in Region 3) (2nd session) (Geneva, 1984)" aka GE84 is the basis for much of the current FM radio broadcasting allocations in the European and African Broadcasts Areas - of interest is the large amount of low-powered allocations in the Rep. Ireland in the upper part of the band between 105 & 108 MHz - I wonder what the initial idea was for these, possibly relays of RTÉ stations?

Glaceon

BBC R4 Droitwich is a pair of 250 kW Marconi B6042 transmitters. They date back to 1985 and are valve-based, but parts are available when required. It was definitely that Guardian piece that had everyone thinking it was a pre-WW2 antique, probably because of the perception that 'valves = old' due to consumer electronics not using them for decades.

TAFKAlawhec

Glaceon wrote: »

BBC R4 Droitwich is a pair of 250 kW Marconi B6042 transmitters. They date back to 1985 and are valve-based, but parts are available when required. It was definitely that Guardian piece that had everyone thinking it was a pre-WW2 antique, probably because of the perception that 'valves = old' due to consumer electronics not using them for decades.

Happy to be corrected. My assumption would be that the interest in using valves instead of transistors were, given that they were installed during the height of the Cold War, that valves have a lot higher tolerance of EMPs compared to transistors & other solid state electronics. That's only an assumption, though.

Mickey Mike

Nothing on Long Wave this evening, BBC Radio 4 is very weak, must be atmospheric conditions.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Nothing on Long Wave this evening, BBC Radio 4 is very weak, must be atmospheric conditions.

Pretty good on my Kiwi SDR tonight compared to last night, haven't checked on the Portables. Using external Bonito Mega Dipol,

rathfarnhamlad

With regard to 279 (Turkmenistan), according to Google Earth, this transmitter was demolished over half a decade ago. Co-ordinates for the site (supposedly) are 37.854167, 58.366111.

rathfarnhamlad

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Nothing on Long Wave this evening, BBC Radio 4 is very weak, must be atmospheric conditions.

Algeria appears to be off again, tried my Pye radio, Sony handheld FM/LW receiver & car stereo - nothing.

Mickey Mike

rathfarnhamlad wrote: »

Algeria appears to be off again, tried my Pye radio, Sony handheld FM/LW receiver & car stereo - nothing.

I got up Chaine 3 (which is the channel on 252) on my tablet, sur its far better quality.

Mickey Mike

Let's face it we all know LW radio days are numbered, high power and low power ones. And if RTE are coming back on 150kw sur jesus they are only codding themselves.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Would 252 kHz even work at low power with Chaine 3 in Algeria sharing the same frequency?

It would seem to make more sense to move RTE Radio 1 to one of the vacated frequencies, if they intend to remain on LW.

If it were on a clearer frequency, maybe it might improve reception in the U.K. and near continental Europe too?

DavidJC

Chaine 3 was booming in last night on one of the Carlow SWRs (web tuner) but was off air by 2am. Probably to save on the extortionate electricity bill they must have.

I also heard 171khz Medi 1 very clearly on on an Icelandic tuner which is a fair distance from Morocco. It says here they are on 1.6MW!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nador_transmitter

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Let's face it we all know LW radio days are numbered, high power and low power ones. And if RTE are coming back on 150kw sur jesus they are only codding themselves.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

LW probably makes a lot of sense in parts of Iceland as it's basically slightly larger than Ireland physically, but only has 356,000 people, the vast majority of whom live in Reykjavik.

So, it's not like there's going to be a demand for endless FM relays covering the whole landmass.

Although, that being said, when I was up there there was pretty solid FM and also mobile phone coverage on 3 networks, despite the tiny population, at least in the areas I drove.

[Deleted User]

Former FF politician Pascal Mooney and a few private citizens were campaigning as for back as 1994 to replace Atlantic 252 with RTE for the Irish diaspora, in 2001 when RTL sold Atlantic to teamtalk the same people were out in force calling for the minister to veto the deal and make RTE take over 252 for the diaspora. When Teamtalk folded after only 6 months their dream of RTE on LW finally came true but this resulted in the closure of 567 MW and then the very same people were saying that LW wasn't good enough for the diaspora and that the diaspora preferred MW

doughnut2000

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Let's face it we all know LW radio days are numbered, high power and low power ones. And if RTE are coming back on 150kw sur jesus they are only codding themselves.

The main disadvantages of LW seem to be the large operating costs, the poor audio quality, the poor quality and lack of availability of receivers, and a lack of interest from listeners.

doughnut2000

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

Happy to be corrected. My assumption would be that the interest in using valves instead of transistors were, given that they were installed during the height of the Cold War, that valves have a lot higher tolerance of EMPs compared to transistors & other solid state electronics. That's only an assumption, though.

It's for their electrical characteristics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_RF_amplifier#Circuit_advantages_of_valves

ClosedAccountFuzzy

That's quite the list of disadvantages.

Mickey Mike

doughnut2000 wrote: »

The main disadvantages of LW seem to be the large operating costs, the poor audio quality, the poor quality and lack of availability of receivers, and a lack of interest from listeners.

Its cheaper for RTE to switch it off and carry out maintenance for a couple of months that keep it on air.

I would imagine maintaining 252 Khz and operating costs would be a small fraction of RTE's overall expenses.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Is it possible it just won't come back from a long maintenance?

Mickey Mike

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Is it possible it just won't come back from a long maintenance?

It is a long time off to the extent where people will start embracing other formats, so yeah its fcuked I'm thinking.

rathfarnhamlad

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Is it possible it just won't come back from a long maintenance?

I suspect that the maintenance is just a cover story

Yep, My bet is that it's off for the "scream test" never to return.

Mickey Mike

Nothing from Algerian radio this evening, you'd hear some bit of noise. I reckon that long wave service is finished too, no need for RTE to change channel either.

DavidJC

I think 252khz Algeria had one last horaah until the weekend.. They were sounding very clear and strong.

Completely off the past few days. Unless there is a part failure or antenna fault being resolved.

Antenna

DavidJC wrote: »

I think 252khz Algeria had one last horaah until the weekend.. They were sounding very clear and strong.

Completely off the past few days. Unless there is a part failure or antenna fault being resolved.

Just after checking for them on car radio just now, and they are back on air.

A weak reception of course (daytime groundwave) but if still on air tonight it should come in strong and easily received across Ireland.

Algeria's 252 has had long spells off air in the past, only to return.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

I was reading some french forums and Chaine 3 seems to have been completely rebuilt with a pair of modern transmitters installed in 2014. The site has been in use since 1972.

Their intention in 2014 was to use DRM but I have no idea if that ever went anywhere.

It has a fairly substantial audience targeting the entire Mediterranean area and the Algerian diaspora in France.

RTÉ causes them significant issues in NW France where it can end up with a mix of both Radio 1 & Chaine 3.

Glaceon

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

I was reading some french forums and Chaine 3 seems to have been completely rebuilt with a pair of modern transmitters installed in 2014. The site has been in use since 1972.

Their intention in 2014 was to use DRM but I have no idea if that ever went anywhere.

It has a fairly substantial audience targeting the entire Mediterranean area and the Algerian diaspora in France.

RTÉ causes them significant issues in NW France where it can end up with a mix of both Radio 1 & Chaine 3.

Yes, Transradio installed a new solid state transmitter there, same manufacturer as in Clarkstown. The previous unit was prone to drift off-frequency every now and then.

https://connect-world.com/fw-algeria-renews-longwave-station-with-ampegon-and-transradio/

FuzzyThinking

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

RTÉ causes them significant issues in NW France where it can end up with a mix of both Radio 1 & Chaine 3.

Imagine RTE ran 252 Khz at full 300 Kw ? might convince them to change frequency lol

Before RTE replaced the 252 Khz transmitter for solid state the old Valve transmitter was 500 Kw from 2 x 250 Kw transmitters built in Texas USA, imagine they were on today at full blast ?

It's mad to think that Atlantic 252 could at times be heard as far away as Brazil at night.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

I’d say it would be RTE who should be the ones to change frequency. They’ve a smaller audience, no domestic reasons for needing LW.

Chaine 3 has definite reasons for LW usage, given the huge region it covers - 2.382 million km² vs 84,421 km² - a relatively much less wealthy market & large areas that would absolutely have no broadband alternatives.

RTE also only began use of LW in 1988 for Atlantic 252 and 2002 for RTE Radio 1

Chaine 3 is on air since 1972 on 252kHz.

If RTE does come back on LW, it would make a lot more sense to pick a vacated frequency that’s actually quiet rather than what they have now.

Surely retuning is just a bureaucratic matter? Wonder what costs would be involved or, if it’s just about applying to the ITU?

Glaceon

The height of the mast might need to be altered too. Hence why Lisnagarvey's top was chopped off when BBC Ulster moved to 1341.