Name links in Statute Revision

pinkypinky

I've just read through a list of very old laws that the State proposes to keep on the Statute books.

http://www.per.gov.ie/slrp/ (see the retention list).

Almost all relate to granting the use of a particular name to other people who don't have that name. Might be of interest. Also references the Ulster King of Arms, who no longer has any jurisdiction in the Republic of Ireland.

I admit I don't really understand why these name grants are granted at this level, and why they need to be retained. Surely anybody can use any name they want these days?

L1011

Can adopt any surname you want; however I suspect that those are being kept in lieu of the current people with those titles having to actually do a legal name change under modern law - Conyngham is Slane Castle's residents for one.

What I find more interesting is that they had to go through every Dublin Gazette to get all the secondary orders - I really hope they digitised or at the very worst, scanned the damn things while they were doing it!

pedroeibar1

pinkypinky wrote: »

I admit I don't really understand why these name grants are granted at this level, and why they need to be retained. Surely anybody can use any name they want these days?

Great link, thanks Pinky.
Anyone can change their name by deed poll. In the past, the name changes mainly were as a result of bequests - father dies without a male heir and leaves his stash to the daughter's husband who as a mark of respect changes the family name that of his late f-in-law. Sometimes the bequest was conditional on a name change to that of the donor. As many if not most of these (wealthy) people were armigerous, it had to be recorded properly and quite possibly has a link to the present right to bear arms.

I recently came across a Cork/Kerry family where in the 1780-1820 period grandfather, father and son all had different surnames as a result of inheritances.

robbok

So why is the Government suggesting we need to keep these outdated name changes ?
Why not scrap all laws related to outdated peerages and arms etc ?
It is absolutely ludicrous in this day and age
There is an e-mail address on the link provided by pinky where the public can make their feelings known

Peregrinus

The right to a coat of arms is an incorporeal heraditament which descends according to prescribed rules. These instruments vary the rules of descent which would otherwise apply. So, in the case of each of these particular instruments, there is or may be some person alive today whose right to use a particular coat of arms depends on the validity and currency of the instrument. Hence, they are not being repealed.

You might reasonably ask why we should give a stuff about coats of arms nowadays, and I wouldn't be out of sympathy. But:

1. The people who are entitled to use the arms concerned may give a stuff about them. Why should their views be discounted?

2. The Constitution protects private property - including incorporeal heraditaments - and capriciously abolishing certain property rights might be open to challenge.

3. Abolishing the entire law of heraldry in Ireland, even if this were policy, would be a much bigger project that is embraced by the Statute Law Revision project.

4. Abolishing heraldry in Ireland isn't government policy. There is an active (though not hugely active) government department devoted to heraldic matters - the Office of the Chief Herald. It is seen has having some cultural value, and as helping to generate and maintain links with the Irish diaspora, and it's a modest source of revenue.

pinkypinky

Though I agree that a Republic has no real business in giving out arms, I don't have a problem with it. It's harmless.

It does mildly irritate me that tourists are duped into buying things with their "coat of arms" on them, when arms are granted to a specific family and not everyone who bears that surname.

robbok

Peregrinus wrote: »

The right to a coat of arms is an incorporeal heraditament which descends according to prescribed rules. These instruments vary the rules of descent which would otherwise apply. So, in the case of each of these particular instruments, there is or may be some person alive today whose right to use a particular coat of arms depends on the validity and currency of the instrument. Hence, they are not being repealed.

You might reasonably ask why we should give a stuff about coats of arms nowadays, and I wouldn't be out of sympathy. But:

1. The people who are entitled to use the arms concerned may give a stuff about them. Why should their views be discounted?

The very opposite is happening , a tiny,tiny group of people are having their views re- enshrined in law without consultation , the government has declared these instruments are being retained , the majority of people in this country as you say would not give a stuff about coats of arms and would view this as a waste of taxpayers money

2. The Constitution protects private property - including incorporeal heraditaments - and capriciously abolishing certain property rights might be open to challenge.

That would be a good thing. If the state/constitution does not recognize titles then why keep the rights on the statute books ? It would be up to the court to decide

3. Abolishing the entire law of heraldry in Ireland, even if this were policy, would be a much bigger project that is embraced by the Statute Law Revision project.

They've started so they may as well finish

4. Abolishing heraldry in Ireland isn't government policy. There is an active (though not hugely active) government department devoted to heraldic matters - the Office of the Chief Herald. It is seen has having some cultural value, and as helping to generate and maintain links with the Irish diaspora, and it's a modest source of revenue.

Genealogy is obviously a great business and there are always lots of clowns willing to by a barony in the west of Ireland and good luck to them but really it is no different to buying a star and naming it after yourself ( you get a certificate with that too)

pedroeibar1

pinkypinky wrote: »

Though I agree that a Republic has no real business in giving out arms, I don't have a problem with it. It's harmless.
It does mildly irritate me that tourists are duped into buying things with their "coat of arms" on them, when arms are granted to a specific family and not everyone who bears that surname.

It doesn’t annoy me or seem incongruous, as it is not a sign of ‘nobility’ to have one’s own Arms, it is meaningless in the overall ‘hierarchical’ scheme of things and confers / implies nothing (other than you have paid a few grand to obtain them.) That said, I fully agree that “Arms” for Irish clans (whatever ‘clans’ are) is a daft notion, a modern one created to give people who know no better something to hang on their walls! When McLysaght was Ulster King (or Chief Herald depending on his tenure) he turned a blind eye to that nonsense to aid tourism and as a result he has a lot to answer for. Same as the paddywhackery of 'Certificates of Irish Origin.'

robbok wrote: »

Genealogy is obviously a great business and there are always lots of clowns willing to by a barony in the west of Ireland and good luck to them but really it is no different to buying a star and naming it after yourself ( you get a certificate with that too)

Not a very informed remark. The Revocations and this topic have no relationship with buying /selling manorships. As Peregrinus correctly pointed out, arms are granted to an individual and are “real property,” i.e. they belong to that individual and cannot be appropriated by another, and are governed by the same laws as taking somebody’s car and using it. Furthermore, the granting of Arms (like lordships of a manor) have nothing to do with nobility. In Ireland Article 40.2.1 of our Constitution prohibits the conferral of a title of nobility by the State, and Article 40.2.2 prohibits acceptance by any citizen of any title of nobility or honour "without the prior approval of the Government” which is why citizens (if they remain citizens) such as Sir Tony O’Reilly or Sir Bob Geldoff had to ask permission to accept (the Govt here is sounded out through diplomatic channels before the actual honour is conferred.) Ireland acknowledged (and continues to acknowledge) those titles conferred in the past by English monarchs.

The French, also a republic, do give honours, e.g. the Légion d'Honneur, with different ranks such as Officier (blue ribbon) and Chevalier (red ribbon). They are a little like the CBE or OBE in the UK and several Irish people have been conferred – Mary Lawlor the Frontline Defender person was conferred during the summer, Bill Cullen has been a ‘Chevalier’ for years for services to French industry, to name just a couple.

Peregrinus

Lordships of the manor are a separate matter from grants of arms. When I was in practice in Ireland quite a few years ago we did have the client with more money than sense who had bought (from a UK-based broker) the lordship of some manor in (I think) Co. Galway, and now wanted his (Irish) passport amended to show him as Lord So-and-so. It turned out that he had a lot more money than sense, and he did have a lively curiosity about these matters, and when we pointed out the legal difficulties in the way of what he wanted, plus the legal uncertainties surroundign lordships of the manor, he was happy to pay for counsel's opinion on the status of his lordship.

Council's opinion was (a) that the lordship of a manor was an office, not a title of nobility, (b) that an office is defined and constituted by its functions, (c) that the functions generally associated with a lordship of the manor were largely or entirely defunct, (d) that to the extent they were not defunct they would mostly be repugant to the Constitution, (e) that most Irish lordships of the manor now no longer exist and (f) that in relation to any particular lordship, its existence could not be established except by exhaustive historical research to determine what functions the lordship had ever had, plus a legal opinion on whether in the present state of Irish law it could still have any of those functions.

So, the default position for Irish lordships of the manor is that they no longer exist. But grants of arms certainly do.

pinkypinky

Peregrinus: that's very interesting.

From knowing some people with hereditary titles, I know that passports do not have any titles in Ireland. Not even Dr.
Marital status and title are on UK passports still.

pedroeibar1

Interesting article here on the UK position.

L1011

pinkypinky wrote: »

Peregrinus: that's very interesting.

From knowing some people with hereditary titles, I know that passports do not have any titles in Ireland. Not even Dr.
Marital status and title are on UK passports still.

And occupation - mine would have been inaccurate for seven of the nine years I've had it if they'd put the occupation when issued on it. I've now moved back to roughly the same thing though!