Renault 1.5 DCI faulty engine issue.

obrienm4

Hopping for some advice on issue with my Renault Laguna 1.5 dci. Basically last week while wife was driving the car timing belt went, disaster. When the engine was looked at it was discovered that the timing belt had not broken but had shredded. Thankfully the guy who looked at it for me mentioned that there is a know engine fault with the 1.5 dci engines where by the water pump pulley is not aligned with the other pulleys resulting in the belt moving over time and eventually shredding against the guarding. Nissan who use the same engine issued a recall in the UK for this issue.

I contacted Renault on this and was informed that because the issue occurred after the service interval for timing belt change (96,000 miles or 6 years) that it has nothing to do with them.

My question is this, car has 60,000 miles on the clock and even though damage occurred outside the service time, the damage was as a result of a manufacturing fault with the engine which Renault are aware of. I am looking to go down the legal route on this but not sure where I stand.

D3PO

there may be a known fault but you have not proven this known fault caused the issue from reading the above ?

Ontop of this the fact is the timing belt should have been changed at 96,000 or 6 years, You didnt do this and were therefore negligent.

Your own issue as far as I can see but by all means go down the legal route and see where you stand.

slimjimmc

I wouldn't be surprised if Renault defend any case by saying if you have the belt changed within the specified interval then no damage would have occurred to the engine and despite a manufacturing/design fault in the engine your belt outlasted the manufacturer's interval.
Had the breakage occurred within the interval you would have a much stronger case than you do now imo.

obrienm4

Should have clarified that the damaged was caused by the mis-aligned pulley.
As for the service interval yes I did not get service done in specified time(something I was not aware of) but 60,000 is well below specified requirement.

Damage was not due to wear and tear but a fault with the engine. Should it not have been highlighted that there was apotential risk with these engines ( as was done with by Nissan) . Or is it acceptable to allow people to drive a vehicle at risk of engine failure.

Del2005

obrienm4 wrote: »

Should have clarified that the damaged was caused by the mis-aligned pulley.
As for the service interval yes I did not get service done in specified time(something I was not aware of) but 60,000 is well below specified requirement.

How old is the car? They say 6 years or 96k miles, rubber perishes over time so even if you only did 60k the belt will still be out of spec if it's over 6 years old.

obrienm4 wrote: »

Damage was not due to wear and tear but a fault with the engine. Should it not have been highlighted that there was apotential risk with these engines ( as was done with by Nissan) . Or is it acceptable to allow people to drive a vehicle at risk of engine failure.

You skipped a major maintenance schedule on your car and are now trying to blame someone else. BTW belts break all the time, they even break before they reach 96k, but if you don't replace the parts when the manufacture recommends then they don't really have to entertain you.

You don't know the damage was due to a fault with the engine, your mechanic said that there's an issue and you jumped to the conclusion that it was the same issue. And as said if you'd replaced the belt within the time frame then the new one could easily have lasted 6 more years.

delahuntv

Looks like renault are trying to say that their timing belts only last 6 years and after that your car will be ruined.

I wouldn't like to buy from a company that has such shoddy workmanship.


In any case, the manufacturer's warranty is in ADDITION to your rights as a consumer. - Ask them for a written refusal for meeting the cost of / carrying out the repair at no cost. Then, assuming the cost is under €2,000, take a small claims action against them.

What the court will look at is why / how the belt became shredded. If it was due to an inherent defect on the mechanics of the car and that even putting aside the maintenance interval "recommendations" of Renault, that it should not have happened, then you should win your case.

Letter from the mechanic that gave you the info and copies of any articles published would be needed for your case.

D3PO

delahuntv wrote: »

Looks like renault are trying to say that their timing belts only last 6 years and after that your car will be ruined.

I wouldn't like to buy from a company that has such shoddy workmanship.

The chemical makeup of the rubber in the belt means it will degrade over time. Its nothing to do with Renault or shoddy workmanship. I am interested however in what car brands you think would have siginificantly longer replacement cycles for their timing belts ??

The OP didnt meet the reccomended service interval, and therefore misused the product.

P.S What engine overhaul do you think could be done for under €2K ??

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

delahuntv wrote: »

Looks like renault are trying to say that their timing belts only last 6 years and after that your car will be ruined.
.

90000 or 6 years seems about right. What are the recommended I tervals on you car? Timing belts are critical as is the need to replace them before they give way. The OP failed to have this servicing carried out - hardly a manufacturing fault!

beauf

You'd have to consider the potential Legal costs vs the cost of replacing the engine.

Probably need to get advice on this from a solicitor.

If the schedule had been followed the recall information is likely to have been followed by the mechanic.

Quite common for recalls in the UK not to be done in Ireland I've seen that a few times over the years. Ridiculous really. But that's a whole different battle.

Moocifer

Definitely might have a problem going down the legal route as when I had a Renault the official documentation always said change the belt every 40,000 miles. In fact my local dealership were so anxious for business they used to write to me once a year to remind me of this :-)

Francie Barrett

How old is the car?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

delahuntv wrote: »

Looks like renault are trying to say that their timing belts only last 6 years and after that your car will be ruined.
.

90000 or 6 years seems about right. What are the recommended intervals on your car? Timing belts are critical, as is the need to replace them before they give way. The OP failed to have this servicing carried out - hardly a manufacturing fault!

emeldc

delahuntv wrote: »

Looks like renault are trying to say that their timing belts only last 6 years and after that your car will be ruined.

I wouldn't like to buy from a company that has such shoddy workmanship.


In any case, the manufacturer's warranty is in ADDITION to your rights as a consumer. - Ask them for a written refusal for meeting the cost of / carrying out the repair at no cost. Then, assuming the cost is under €2,000, take a small claims action against them.

What the court will look at is why / how the belt became shredded. If it was due to an inherent defect on the mechanics of the car and that even putting aside the maintenance interval "recommendations" of Renault, that it should not have happened, then you should win your case.

Letter from the mechanic that gave you the info and copies of any articles published would be needed for your case.

The only way to answer this post is to say you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

ThisRegard

delahuntv wrote: »

Looks like renault are trying to say that their timing belts only last 6 years and after that your car will be ruined.

I wouldn't like to buy from a company that has such shoddy workmanship.

So you'll probably never buy a car so. All manufacturers have such recommendations.

obrienm4

Thanks for the feedback on this.

Just want to clear up the discussion around the belt. Renault have confirmed that the failure was as a result of the belt riding over the edge of the pulley and shredding, they have had this issue before. In fact the belt facing the engine is in perfect condition while the other side is in bits. The engine damage was caused by one of the frayed pieces of belt getting caught between the cam shaft pulley and the engine resulting in the pulley key shearing. Although belt is over 6 years old, it was not the belt CONDITION that caused the issue but the manufacturing fault with the pulley alignment. If belt was changed within time frame and pulley not re-aligned correctly same issue would have occurred.

For my part, I made the mistake of not driving the car enough as higher mileage in a shorter time would have resulted in the failure occurring sooner.

For Renault's part I find it unacceptable that a car manufacturer would allow a known flaw go unnoticed in the hope that they could use the 6 year warranty as a get out of jail free card. Even if the damage had occurred within the 6 year window the thoughts of my wife and kids driving down the motorway in a vehicle that could fail is not a comforting feeling.

Fair play to Nissan for holding up there hands and letting there customers know that there was an issue even if it was in the UK. From talking with a Nissan owner here, Nissan are checking belt condition and pulley alignment when in service ( all my service records show belt was not inspected).

All I can do now is cry into my porridge and vow never to buy a Renault again.

D3PO

obrienm4 wrote: »

Although belt is over 6 years old, it was not the belt CONDITION that caused the issue but the manufacturing fault with the pulley alignment. If belt was changed within time frame and pulley not re-aligned correctly same issue would have occurred.
.

Actually it was the belt condition. The belt frayed and caused the issue. If you had replaed the belt after 6 years the belt would not have frayed to the point that caused this damage, and when you changed the belt the pulley alignment would have been corrected also.

You didnt maintain your car as per the guidelines, you misused the product as it were and are responsible for the failure.

Kensington

obrienm4 wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback on this.

Just want to clear up the discussion around the belt. Renault have confirmed that the failure was as a result of the belt riding over the edge of the pulley and shredding, they have had this issue before. In fact the belt facing the engine is in perfect condition while the other side is in bits. The engine damage was caused by one of the frayed pieces of belt getting caught between the cam shaft pulley and the engine resulting in the pulley key shearing. Although belt is over 6 years old, it was not the belt CONDITION that caused the issue but the manufacturing fault with the pulley alignment. If belt was changed within time frame and pulley not re-aligned correctly same issue would have occurred.

For my part, I made the mistake of not driving the car enough as higher mileage in a shorter time would have resulted in the failure occurring sooner.

For Renault's part I find it unacceptable that a car manufacturer would allow a known flaw go unnoticed in the hope that they could use the 6 year warranty as a get out of jail free card. Even if the damage had occurred within the 6 year window the thoughts of my wife and kids driving down the motorway in a vehicle that could fail is not a comforting feeling.

Fair play to Nissan for holding up there hands and letting there customers know that there was an issue even if it was in the UK. From talking with a Nissan owner here, Nissan are checking belt condition and pulley alignment when in service ( all my service records show belt was not inspected).

All I can do now is cry into my porridge and vow never to buy a Renault again.

It's not just Renault. Timing belt failure is a catastrophic event for any engine regardless of the manufacturer.

You cannot say for sure what condition the belt was in by virtue of the fact it has neither been replaced nor inspected in over six years (inspection is a pretty involved process, you have to pull half the engine apart).

The belt might appear aesthetically sound, but if it's stretched even slightly, enough to cause a tooth to slip, then that can be more than enough to cause catastrophic engine failure. It doesn't have to "snap" or be shredded apart to be deemed a failure or cause irrepairable damage.

If you had maintained the car to its service interval throughout its working life, you might have a leg to stand on even though the warranty is technically expired. However, even if you were within your warranty period, by not having maintained the car correctly you've voided your warranty regardless and so would have just as little comeback then as you do now - "known fault" or not.

Lesson learned - ALWAYS maintain the car correctly and NEVER chance the timing belt!!!

obrienm4

Car was serviced at 71,000 km and at 93,000 km all service intervals were done at specified time in manual. 93,000 was done last year.

D3PO

obrienm4 wrote: »

Car was serviced at 71,000 km and at 93,000 km all service intervals were done at specified time in manual. 93,000 was done last year.

The car was not maintained as it should end of story.

P.S I find it hard to believe the reccomended service interval would be 22,000 KM either.

obrienm4

Correct on first point, GET your facts right on second.

Renault cars have a SERVICE INDICATOR on the dash that ILLUMINATES every 12 MONTHS no matter what mileage is done. Once service is completed indicator is reset.

D3PO

obrienm4 wrote: »

Correct on first point, GET your facts right on second.

Renault cars have a SERVICE INDICATOR on the dash that ILLUMINATES every 12 MONTHS no matter what mileage is done. Once service is completed indicator is reset.

Oh sweet jesus. The indicator for 12 months is there to ensure if the car isnt being driven often its still serviced every year.

A car should be serviced every year or every X number of KM whichever is sooner.

Im sorry if you dont understand how to properly maintain your car but thats not Renaults fault. Maybe you should read the cars handbook and educate yourself.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

obrienm4 wrote: »

Car was serviced at 71,000 km and at 93,000 km all service intervals were done at specified time in manual. 93,000 was done last year.

And why did you not get the timing belt changed then as you are supposed to do? You need to talk to your mechanic and update him on timing belt replacement intervals?

obrienm4

P.S I find it hard to believe the reccomended service interval would be 22,000 KM either.

I don't disagree, you made the statement above. I just made the point that I followed the service manual and had services done at the specified TIME. You made the point about the mileage.

Kensington

Who "serviced" the car?
Because they did not do it correctly, i.e. replacing the timing belt at it's service interval. It's a pretty fundamental part to the engine and not something any reputable mechanic might "miss".

(In fact, a few mechanics I've come across will point blank refuse to touch the car if it's timing belt interval is due, no matter what the work they were due to carry out was, without replacing it as the first step)

Anyway, not here to throw it back on you, but to answer your question, you have very little to go on legally - at least with Renault - as it's now entirely up to you to prove the failure was 100% down to a manufacturing fault, and not because of a lack of maintenance, which is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible given the car was not serviced according to the required or recommended standard.

beauf

Marcel Scarce Cookie wrote: »

And why did you not get the timing belt changed then as you are supposed to do? You need to talk to your mechanic and update him on timing belt replacement intervals?

Need a new mechanic, if he missed this. I would have thought any mechanic would refuse to sign off on a car if it was due a timing belt change and the customer didn't get it done. Even get the customer to sign a disclaimer.

Who was servicing the car?

obrienm4

To be fair, warranty covers two scenarios, 96,000 miles or 6 years. At last service the car had only done 93,000 km's which is about 58,000 miles well below the mileage requirement.

As for the 6 years you cannot expect a mechanic to know the registration date of the vehicle. I did not even know what the registration date was.
Either way as the owner the responsibility is with me.

beauf

I've never know a mechanic to open a bonnet and not check the date for the belt.

slimjimmc

obrienm4 wrote: »

To be fair, warranty covers two scenarios, 96,000 miles or 6 years. At last service the car had only done 93,000 km's which is about 58,000 miles well below the mileage requirement.

As for the 6 years you cannot expect a mechanic to know the registration date of the vehicle. I did not even know what the registration date was.
Either way as the owner the responsibility is with me.

The date on the NCT disc is a good indicator since it expires on the anniversary of first registration. And if you had it serviced it any Renault dealership they would have it on record even if you never been there before.

Beano

obrienm4 wrote: »

To be fair, warranty covers two scenarios, 96,000 miles or 6 years. ...

Indeed. whichever of these comes first.

delahuntv

emeldc wrote: »

The only way to answer this post is to say you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Or maybe I read the OP's post correctly that very clearly stated that the fault was not the belt itself but on the pulley that caused the belt to do something it would not normally do.

Hence an inherent fault that should not have happened.

The question from a legal point of view is Would such a fault have occurred if the pulleys were not faulty. - If answer in no, then the OP has a good case.

Also, the car manual does not state the timing belt MUST be replaced. It is a recommendation / advisory and it certainly does not state that if not replaced the engine will automatically fail.



Small claims court costs €20 and a judge will decide. - A staff member of mine won against a fiat dealer over a steering column issue. They tried the "wasn't serviced by authorised dealer" line and that argument held no sway and she won.

D3PO

delahuntv wrote: »

Small claims court costs €20 and a judge will decide. - A staff member of mine won against a fiat dealer over a steering column issue. They tried the "wasn't serviced by authorised dealer" line and that argument held no sway and she won.

Well Im not suprsed that held no sway as its a nonse argument from Fiat.

Not being serviced by an authorized dealver v not being serviced is a very very different argument.

Like I said the OP can fill their boots and make a Small claims case. Nothign ventured and all that however

1) Belt wasnt repalced as it should have been after 6 years
2) Car hasnt been serviced in a reccomended manner (see 22,000 km between services)

so there are multiple items that point to owner neglect and I cannot see in any way shape or form how given these facts that a positive result could be yielded.

On an aside Small claims is to a max of €2,000 you wont get your engineer overhauled for that cost.