Black waxy soot everywhere in the house

dmcgahon

Dear Mod - could I please post an URL to photobucket - as this question is really a visual thing?

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5 1/2 year rental recently vacated. Paint work was perfect when they moved in. I have complaints from him about quality of paint work after 12 months and again after 24 months. I didn't re-paint during his tenancy though allowed him to paint sitting room. Did offer once but then it didn't suit him and he got a great rent reduction so I wasn't inclined to be spending. I didn't inspect enough enough and he gave me the run-around that I shouldn't have allowed but leave that to one side for the moment.

After he vacated a painter came in and instead of painting the entire 3-bed terrace (walls and ceilings only in most rooms) white with good Dulux paint in 3-4 days for €750-800 -- it took him nearly 5 days and over 40 litres of paint and closer to €1000. The main reason was the black sooty stuff everywhere but especially noticeable along the joists which he was essentially painting over and dragging along.

I came on the scene after painting and he had left a few spots to show me how bad it had been. I then cleaned the atrocious bathrooms (en-suite particularly bad) and scrubbed the tiles with brillo pads. Normally the soap comes out pink, instead it was coming out black and while I scrubbed and scrubbed tbh I think I could do this again and get the same dirt again.

Then see the light fittings which a finger-rub took off black waxy substance and with j-cloth was able to clean. So... black waxy stuff all over the house. What could it be?

I did find candles all around the property and I suppose with limited ventilation the waxy soot from guttering candles might do it?

Was there a kitchen fire at some point and he wanted to cover it up by asking that the property be hastily re-painted?

Could it be from the gas fire in the living room?

Any ideas? I offered half deposit back and he raged and says there is no damage (have a look at rips on €800 red leather couch) and is disputing with the PRTB. I'm now wondering should I charge for part of the re-painting.

Stone Deaf 4evr

First thing i'd be doing is fitting a carbon monoxide alarm and making sure that your chimney and boiler are venting properly.

ABajaninCork

I'm a bit confused. If the painter was in any way professional, why didn't he point out the damage BEFORE starting to paint? And I think you should have cleaned and inspected BEFORE getting the painters in. That'd make sense to me.

Did he wash the walls before painting - sounds to me as though he didn't...

Why did he use a cheaper paint? Was it agreed by you, or did you assume he would use Dulux or similar?

What price was agreed between you for the job? Again - did you assume it would be E800 or was the price agreed in writing?

Finally - I don't think you can deduct from the deposit unless you can show bills, and proof of the damage.

ABajaninCork

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

First thing i'd be doing is fitting a carbon monoxide alarm and making sure that your chimney and boiler are venting properly.

Good point. When was the boiler last serviced? If it's not venting properly, then you'd be getting the soot mentioned. Candles don't produce that much soot...

dmcgahon

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

First thing i'd be doing is fitting a carbon monoxide alarm and making sure that your chimney and boiler are venting properly.

Carbon monoxide alarm in the house and all clear. Boiler serviced every year and each time emissions are almost non-existent.

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I'm a bit confused. If the painter was in any way professional, why didn't he point out the damage BEFORE starting to paint? And I think you should have cleaned and inspected BEFORE getting the painters in. That'd make sense to me.

Did he wash the walls before painting - sounds to me as though he didn't...

Why did he use a cheaper paint? Was it agreed by you, or did you assume he would use Dulux or similar?

What price was agreed between you for the job? Again - did you assume it would be E800 or was the price agreed in writing?

Finally - I don't think you can deduct from the deposit unless you can show bills, and proof of the damage.

Painter is a friend who is a landlord himself with extensive painting experience and he did this as a favour to me when I couldn't get there for a week. He also dealt with re-letting the property and supervising a plumber during that week.

Washing the walls/ceilings would have been a good idea but the main thing I'm trying to track down here is what was the black waxy substance.

A cheaper paint wasn't used and we agreed that the end price would depend on how long it took him. We have a long history and I trust him. He's gone over and above in other ways.

I'm here trying to figure out what the damage is and take it from there. I have plenty of photos. Short of calling out the fire brigade I don't know who's going to tell me if there was a fire in the house or not.

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Good point. When was the boiler last serviced? If it's not venting properly, then you'd be getting the soot mentioned. Candles don't produce that much soot...

Boiler very regularly serviced and always low emissions when tested. Carbon monoxide alarm in the house along with extinguishers and fire blanket. I agree candles don't produce quite that much soot.

Would love to show you guys the pictures? They're really worth 1000 words.

Effects

Are you sure it isn't black mould?

sweetie

yes, its due to burning candles with poor or no ventilation. Happened to a tenant of mine who blocked up the vent in their room and burned candles and incense (and probably other combustibles ) all night.

dmcgahon

Effects wrote: »

Are you sure it isn't black mould?

It's waxy. The pics that I can't post show the blackness on a standard white light fitting. Get on a chair and run your finger through it and it comes off waxy and wihout a smell. If it smelled lavender or cookies I'd have my answer

The house is new and nicely appointed. There is no dampness or mould issue anywhere.

sweetie wrote: »

yes, its due to burning candles with poor or no ventilation. Happened to a tenant of mine who blocked up the vent in their room and burned candles and incense (and probably other combustibles ) all night.

Amazing that this is affecting pretty much the whole house... except the box room where presumably the door was permanently closed. It was worse immediately above the bath where you would burn candles, on the limestone fireplace where presumably they continued this penchant for candles and while the house was left reasonably empty I found three burnt candles lying around.

Effects

I just thought it might have been black mould as I had that problem. Tenants blocked up vents as well. I told them not to but they always removed them for inspections. It was easy to see the marks of where the vents were covered though.

dmcgahon

Effects wrote: »

I just thought it might have been black mould as I had that problem. Tenants blocked up vents as well. I told them not to but they always removed them for inspections. It was easy to see the marks of where the vents were covered though.

I have an older slightly older 2-bed house (built 2001) elsewhere that has a bit of a mould issue. I don't think they are blocking vents but I will double-check. What I do suspect is that they aren't adequately ventilating and heating. I've given them all this feedback and even provided a loan of a de-humidifier, which helped.

Michael D Not Higgins

dmcgahon wrote: »

Any ideas? I offered half deposit back and he raged and says there is no damage (have a look at rips on €800 red leather couch) and is disputing with the PRTB. I'm now wondering should I charge for part of the re-painting.

Can't help with the origin of the soot but remember to keep all receipts from rectifying damages. You'd need to document the damages well too. Painting could be deductable from the deposit if the damages were caused by the tenant but you'd need to prove this. Your own time cleaning can't be deducted. The cost of the couch is not relevant, the cost of repair is what would be, if again the damage was caused by the tenant rather than normal wear and tear.

dmcgahon

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Can't help with the origin of the soot but remember to keep all receipts from rectifying damages. You'd need to document the damages well too. Painting could be deductable from the deposit if the damages were caused by the tenant but you'd need to prove this. Your own time cleaning can't be deducted. The cost of the couch is not relevant, the cost of repair is what would be, if again the damage was caused by the tenant rather than normal wear and tear.

I have plenty of photos. What I'm trying to gather now is other supporting documentation.

Yes agreed, I'm just checking now if the extra painting is what I could potentially add to the list of charges before the PRTB dispute that he is lodging.

Why can't my own time for cleaning be deducted if this letting agreement clause wasn't followed. I'd love you all to be able to see the photos. The en-suite was a manky mess. They made a half-decent effort everwhere else:

"Before vacating the premises, the tenant agrees to thoroughly clean cookers, fridges, other appliances, carpet, bathrooms, floor coverings and furnishings."

Agreed, the cost of the couch isn't relevant. One quote for re-upholstery was €300-350 and a second said to dump as matching leather will be hard to find. Can't I charge for partial replacement cost if not wear and tear? The 2-seater is immaculate, only the 3-seater is badly damaged. Again, photos would tell the story better here. Any mods reading?

Michael D Not Higgins

dmcgahon wrote: »

I have plenty of photos. What I'm trying to gather now is other supporting documentation.

Yes agreed, I'm just checking now if the extra painting is what I could potentially add to the list of charges before the PRTB dispute that he is lodging.

Why can't my own time for cleaning be deducted if this letting agreement clause wasn't followed. I'd love you all to be able to see the photos. The en-suite was a manky mess. They made a half-decent effort everwhere else:

"Before vacating the premises, the tenant agrees to thoroughly clean cookers, fridges, other appliances, carpet, bathrooms, floor coverings and furnishings."

Agreed, the cost of the couch isn't relevant. One quote for re-upholstery was €300-350 and a second said to dump as matching leather will be hard to find. Can't I charge for partial replacement cost if not wear and tear? The 2-seater is immaculate, only the 3-seater is badly damaged. Again, photos would tell the story better here. Any mods reading?

You aren't allowed charge for your own time. That's just how it is. Had you got professional cleaners in and kept receipts you could deduct that.

Mods aren't around at all times, they are unpaid volunteers.

Thanks for send me the pictures. Here's a few I picked:

Michael D Not Higgins

Another. These are pretty bad and support your case for getting the painting costs back, especially if you repainted during the tenancy. It might hurt your case a little if you've already stated that you're taking half, should you go back and say you're taking it all. The PRTB may rule that you get what you asked for initially. I can't comment on the couch as I don't have a before photo to compare with, so I can't judge if it's normal wear and tear.

dmcgahon

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You aren't allowed charge for your own time. That's just how it is. Had you got professional cleaners in and kept receipts you could deduct that.

Mods aren't around at all times, they are unpaid volunteers.

Thanks for send me the pictures. Here's a few I picked:

image1

image2

image3

"Just how it is" - is it explicitly mentioned in the Residential Tenancies Act I wonder? I had a birth registrar deny me naming my daughter a double barrelled name (her mums culture) without a hyphen. When I asked her to point out the line of the Birth and Deaths legislation that specified that hyphens were mandatory that all changed pretty quickly.

Not finished cleaning yet. Still have the option to get professional cleaners in to complete it. Understand that mods aren't always around. Thanks for posting the pics.

See in the first pic where the blackness is on the light fitting. The same stuff was on the paint-work... see where he left a square patch to show how black the originally white paint was. Then surrounding that is the re-painted white. It's more striking up close but I think the light fitting shows the issue. The second photo shows the light fitting wiped with a bit of elbow grease. The third shows the tear but tbh... I need better photos to compare and contrast the extensive wear on the 3-seater with the almost perfect 2-seater.

The same blackness was what I scrubbed off the tiling in the en-suite. Brillo pads on moderately clean surfaces scrub up pink, not black. Mind posting that photo and showing the tide mark where the high tiles I couldn't immediately reach?

dmcgahon

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Another. These are pretty bad and support your case for getting the painting costs back, especially if you repainted during the tenancy. It might hurt your case a little if you've already stated that you're taking half, should you go back and say you're taking it all. The PRTB may rule that you get what you asked for initially. I can't comment on the couch as I don't have a before photo to compare with, so I can't judge if it's normal wear and tear.

The half deposit offer went more like this, after first presenting a list of items such as torn couch, dirty bathrooms and kitchen presses, dirty fireplace, unauthorised cheap curtain poles attached, light fitting broken when changing bulb and not informed about leaking tap and leaking immersion tank:

"
Torn leather 3-seater coach. €300 to re-upholster, €700 to replace. € 300
En-suite bathroom not cleaned. Kitchen presses not cleaned. € 150
Cleaning supplies for above and beyond € 80
Limestone Fireplace damaged. May need specialist cleaning. € 50
Cheap curtain red deal rails to be removed, filled, painted € 50

COSTS INCURRED RESTORING PROPERTY € 630

Giving consideration to the fact that you felt you should have been reimbursed €83 for paint and that you did occasionally make a small repair or two out your own pocket during the tenancy, I'm going to offer to forward half of your €900 deposit back to you.

In earlier correspondence, even before vacating the property, you indicated that you intended to dispute any end-of-tenancy inspection outcome with the PRTB as a matter of couse, which is of course your prerogative. However, I believe that I'm being more than fair in offering to return half of the deposit. I'm perfectly happy though to present all the facts to the PRTB and have then decide what is a reasonable and fair division of the deposit. Let me know how you would like to proceed.
"

I have another week to continue working on the property (it is already re-let) and I'll be doing more cleaning and taking more photos this weekend. I believe this is candle wax or a much older kitchen fire that wasn't disclosed. What annoyed me most was the lack of disclosure on stuff. The torn couch was mentioned after first leaving and then coming back to take a quick photo of it.

I sent you link via p.m to before pictures of the couch and fireplace. There were in good shape.

MouseTail

I would get cleaners in, its a tax deductable.
i really don't think that's from candles.

Michael D Not Higgins

I'm not sure where it's specified but even the irishlandlords.ie has it in their FAQ for return of deposits, that you can't charge your own time.

http://www.irishlandlord.com/index.aspx?page=faq&answer=58#answer
Note: It is not possible to claim for your own time e.g. if you re-paint a room yourself. You cannot put a value on this time and deduct it from the tenants deposit.

Your before and after pictures you PM'd me are thumbnails and I can't see anything in them, for example:



You have been pretty fair to them so far, as you outlined, but 'may need cleaning' can't be deducted. You need to back up your deductions with receipts and expenses, which is why I'd focus on the painting.

Cuddlesworth

You're going to have issues with the PRTB.

You don't have valid receipts and invoices for the issues you have described and most of what you are talking about is close enough to normal wear and tear. If you had employed actual cleaners with those pictures then it would have been fine to withhold the deposit for that amount but you didn't. The couch could even be classed as wear and tear, it got 5 and half years of use(or more).

You also need to show where you pointed this out to the previous tenant and allowed them to rectify the issues first within a reasonable timeframe. You did do this right?

foggy_lad

Firstly after over 5 years you will get nowhere looking for payment for painting the place as this will be seen as required under normal wear and tear.

You can get the place cleaned professionally and charge for that but first you must give the tenant the opportunity to do the cleaning themselves.

next point about the sofa, it is several years old and is torn which is just one of those wear and tear things that is going to happen from time to time. you should not have had such an expensive sofa in the place!

You can charge for the damage but will most likely not get it! again the tenant must be given the opportunity to replace so they just need to get an old leather sofa without any tears in it and they are in the clear!

The tenant must be given the opportunity to sort out all the issues and only then would you have any hope of charging for cleaning with receipts from a professional company, or for the tear in the sofa(if the tear can be repaired that would probably do for the PRTB), the PRTB might not like that another Landlord has done the painting if you were to try to claim for that.

chopper6

That looks like smoke damage from a fire of some sort...my guess would be something plastic or polysterene.

Wabbit Ears

Ive seen that in student accommodation where they burned absolutely anything flammable in the fireplace in winter and nasty smoke everywhere.

mylittlepony

Maybe soot coming from uncleaned chimney?
That got blocked that smoke soot got into room but how get into other rooms strange.
Did you ask your tenant where it coming from?
What was he using for heat, burning in the fireplace?

Stepping Stone

I had a similar issue with a house that I lived in during my college years. The cause was a very dirty chimney. We had a gas fire in another room which was never serviced so this contributed to it. Landlord was amazed when we pointed it out to him because he had never considered servicing the gas fire, gas cooker or cleaning the chimney.

dmcgahon

MouseTail wrote: »

I would get cleaners in, its a tax deductable.
i really don't think that's from candles.

I also don't believe it's (all) from candles. Think there was a fire of some sort. Can the fire brigade check for me? Most of the evidence has now been painted over or cleaned away mind you.

I will be getting cleaners in next time and might even this weekend to do a final clean. There are still odd-jobs at a little more painting being done this week.

dmcgahon

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You're going to have issues with the PRTB.

You don't have valid receipts and invoices for the issues you have described and most of what you are talking about is close enough to normal wear and tear. If you had employed actual cleaners with those pictures then it would have been fine to withhold the deposit for that amount but you didn't. The couch could even be classed as wear and tear, it got 5 and half years of use(or more).

You also need to show where you pointed this out to the previous tenant and allowed them to rectify the issues first within a reasonable timeframe. You did do this right?

I don't have receipts and invoices for the general cleaning or fireplace restoration.... yet. The work isn't yet complete. Or in the case of the fireplace, started. I have written evidence of state of house and invoice for painting and if I choose to re-upholster the coach (quoted €300 by one repairer).

Have to disagree with you that a torn couch is fair wear or tear. Even without the tear, the wearing seems excessive. The 2-seater is in almost pristine condition. He blocked a number of attempts at inspections over the past 3 years and in the run up to vacating said: "I don’t want and I don’t have to leave tradesmen or potential tenants into my home. So please let it go until we are gone." I told him this was incorrect and insisted on an agent inspecting for me.

"To be clear, I have no intention of showing the property until it has been vacated and is in a fit state to be shown. You are not at all correct about being able to deny me access. This page presents this all from the tenants point of view (link to threshold page). It is quite clear that you must provide access at agreed times. The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 is the legal basis for all of this. I'm not at all clear on why would you not allow a routine inspection at any point in time? You have to allow one."

Which then happened, during which his wife sat on that torn coach (there was also a throw covering the damage). They didn't disclose it even during the final inspection one week later and returning the keys. In advance of that I had advised that:

"Some advice on the deposit. As well as damage above normal wear and tear it covers unnecessary cleaning costs. The most important areas to be cleaned are the kitchen and bathrooms. Please have the fridge and freezer emptied, defrosted and unplugged. The oven and hob should be clean. The bathrooms should be clean. Other areas must also be clean but these are the most important areas."

To which he said: "There is no damage beyond "wear and tear". If you feel there is anything beyond "wear and tear" make sure you photograph it and keep receipts. Any deductions from the deposit will be issued to PRTB for judgement."

dmcgahon

mylittlepony wrote: »

Maybe soot coming from uncleaned chimney?
That got blocked that smoke soot got into room but how get into other rooms strange.
Did you ask your tenant where it coming from?
What was he using for heat, burning in the fireplace?

There is a gas fire in the only chimney and I'm getting it checked out. The gas boiler was regularly serviced and not emitted anything untoward.

I've asked him was there a fire or other event but the question got lost in the noise of the half-your-deposit back which he is thinking is unreasonable. I have a request for him for re-painting sitting room after only 12 months in the house and for the whole house to be painted after 28 months - "At this stage the paint work is so bad that it is embarrassing to invite anyone to visit." Before photos show that the paintwork was good when he took the property. What happened in 12 and then 28 months for such deterioration to have occurred?

Gas for water, radiators and for the fire in the front room, assuming they were using this. This is a new house, built 2007 and very well decorated. We're not talking about student accommodation here. That's what makes it even more puzzling.

m0nsterie

dmcgahon wrote: »

I did find candles all around the property and I suppose with limited ventilation the waxy soot from guttering candles might do it?

It is definitely the candles. I have seen this happen before, not to your extent, but confined to one room. They produce an incredible amount of that waxy soot/dirt. Also it's possible that lower quality candles produce more than higher quality ones.
I know others in the thread do not think it could be the candles but you have to see it to believe it.

MouseTail

Really, what does it matter what caused it? They left the place in a disgusting state, and in my view it is reasonable to deduct the cost of cleaning (if you had hired professional cleaners) and painting. The couch also looks beyond reasonable wear and tear.

Sun in Capri

I think this could be caused by condensation. I have seen similar in a house where there was insufficient damp proofing of walls.

ZENER

Any chance they used a paraffin or kerosene heater ? We have tenants using these and getting a similar black waxy residue on surfaces.

KEn