Reasons for driving children to school

Carawaystick

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I think you need to reconsider your definition of "straw man argument".

The topic of this thread is "reasons for driving children to school".

One of the reasons regularly trotted out is that schoolbags are too heavy.

I suggested that wheelie bags could be used instead.

I know I didn't pay attention in every physics class, but I'm unsure how increasing the mass of a schoolbag solves the issue of the mass of a schobag is to large

monument

beauf wrote: »

I was more referring to the idea that there was two tier enforcement bias for drivers.

Many say its dangerous, without having any experience, or done any research into the subject.

On the contrary: Most think our roads and streets are dangerous because of their experience of driving on roads and looking at and/or using our Ireland's lacking walking and cycling networks.

Most people's tolerance levels are lower than current users of the cycling and walking networks -- and that's amplified when it comes to their children.

beauf

My point was people with no experience of cycling, or research into the subject. You're talking about people with experience of the cycling network. That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. Also the subject was people who won't cycle. People who have experience of cycling, obviously are not people who won't cycle.

People can drive for 50yrs and learn nothing. Nothing even about driving, never mind cycling. So I think you need to apply that context when listening to such people. There's one where I work, claims its too dangerous to cycle when his entire route is either physically segregated cycles lanes for a tiny section, then the rest of it is off road entirely. They will never cycle. They simply don't want to.

Thats really the problem with this thread. its all about sweeping generalizations, based on people own singular experience, and no appreciation that its not a simple issue, there's a lot of complexity around transport to school and work, and peoples lifestyle. If you want simple solution, make it not worth their while driving. Then people will switch. Most will take the path of least resistance. At the moment for most people that's driving.

Ask youself is it easier to get 4 kids out on bikes, of all ages, abilities, put on the rain gear, get their bags on carriers, unlocked and locked, then get to school. or all hop into the car, and be at the school in 5~10 mins. That before you factor in other situations, like the kids are out at different times, so that means you might be making multiple runs, and to different schools. Theres after school activities perhaps in a another location. What happens if one bike is not serviceable. One kid is sick.

I'm not saying that the cycling structure doesn't have problems. Its certainly does. just think its stock answer which is trotted out mindlessly a lot of the time.

beauf

monument wrote: »

...Most people's tolerance levels are lower than current users of the cycling and walking networks -- and that's amplified when it comes to their children.

That certainly true.

Any time I've seen people switch to cycling for even some of their journeys its because they discover how convenient it is for their journey. And they enjoyed.

KevR

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm always interested in the reasons people give for driving their children to school.

Are you genuinely interested (i.e. - if someone gives a reason which doesn't match up with your transport ideals, will you try to see it from their point of view)? Or will opinions that are different to yours be dismissed as "illusion"?

LuckyLloyd

_Brian wrote: »

The strange thing I can't understand is that some posters seem to see absolutely no reason acceptable that children get dropped to school.. This is a quite blinkered view on life.

Definitely there are kids who could indeed walk/cycle rather than be dropped to the school, but equally there are those for whom the only sensible option is for them to be dropped by car.

It seriously discredits a person's point if they cannot accept that it cannot be 100% applied to EVERY situation no matter what.

- child lives more than a 20 minute walk from school and cannot use a bike for some reason;
- child lives in a rural area where the path to school has no footpath and is dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists alike;
- child lives a commute away from school and public transport isn't an option;

These are good reasons to drive a kid to school.

- child's bag is heavy;
- I'm afraid something may happen on the short walk to and from school;

Bad reasons imo.

A 15 - 20 minute walk to and from school will be of great benefit to your child. It gives some them easy exercise. It ingrains accountability from an early age for planning to leave early enough to get where you're going on time in the morning. It forces them to be organised and prepare for the day ahead and only take what they need depending on their timetable.

Barring medical / physical impairments, if your kid reaches the end of secondary school unable to move a reasonably full backpack (and maybe a sports bag too) for a couple of kilometres then you've failed them as a parent imo.

jaymcg91

The school near ours is using iPads to read textbooks on now, instead of kids bringing physical textbooks. Realistically this is probably the future, so kids will be able to walk more, unburdened by large amounts of textbooks.

beauf

Hopefully that will stop them charging for trivial updates for books.

RainyDay

beauf wrote: »

I don't see what this has to do with getting drivers not to drive.

Because it's the people driving who cause the danger to those walking or cycling.

ThisRegard wrote: »

You generally don't get gangs of kids starting at the age of 4 upwards rushing for planes while distracted by the simplest of things either.

Ever been in an airport at summer time? Although, I'd accept that in other places, kid would mostly be in groups of 2s or 3s, or supervised by parents,

ThisRegard wrote: »

It would have suited us anyway to have a wheelie bag, it's bloody difficult to find a non wheelie bag that's not the size of the junior infant carrying it.

Yeah, I can see that would be a problem all right.

beauf

RainyDay wrote: »

Because it's the people driving who cause the danger to those walking or cycling.....

...that wasn't the latest post on that...

beauf wrote: »

I was ... referring to the idea that there was two tier enforcement bias for drivers....

What are you saying? That it is too dangerous or it isn't?

monument

beauf wrote: »

My point was people with no experience of cycling, or research into the subject. You're talking about people with experience of the cycling network.That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. Also the subject was people who won't cycle. People who have experience of cycling, obviously are not people who won't cycle.

Three points here:

(1) There are people who have direct experience of cycling and get fed up on the conditions for one reason or another.

(2) There are people who have direct experience of cycling and because of this they refuse to allow their children to cycle or be cycled.

(3) It does not take direct experience to figure out that Irish cycle networks are generally patchy, poorly designed, poorly maintained, and poorly respected by motorists -- some motorists are oblivious to some/all of the problems, but I know loads of motorists (who have not cycled in 30+ years) who can see enough of the issue to realise that Irish cycle networks are generally crap.

The one problem that nearly all motorists I talk to point out is that the cycle network is poorly respected by motorists (using cycle lanes/tracks to park, undertake etc).

beauf wrote: »

People can drive for 50yrs and learn nothing. Nothing even about driving, never mind cycling. So I think you need to apply that context when listening to such people. There's one where I work, claims its too dangerous to cycle when his entire route is either physically segregated cycles lanes for a tiny section, then the rest of it is off road entirely. They will never cycle. They simply don't want to.

There's a few people even in countries like the Netherlands and Denmark who will choice to never cycle (I mean choose, rather than not being able to).

Even with a culture and street/road network which has cycling at the centre, it won't be 100% of people who are able to who will cycle, so there's no point thinking that's an issue which stops cycling from becoming mainstream.

beauf wrote: »

Thats really the problem with this thread. its all about sweeping generalizations, based on people own singular experience, and no appreciation that its not a simple issue, there's a lot of complexity around transport to school and work, and peoples lifestyle.

And I'd refer any body of that mind to read Understanding Walking and Cycling -- hey, just read the summary at least.

beauf wrote: »

If you want simple solution, make it not worth their while driving. Then people will switch. Most will take the path of least resistance. At the moment for most people that's driving.

That undermines your last point -- it's a complex issue which will not be sorted by just making it hard to drive.

I deal with horses -- most react well to the carrot approach. Worry about the stick only after the carrot or as a side-affect of the carrot.

beauf wrote: »

Ask youself is it easier to get 4 kids out on bikes, of all ages, abilities, put on the rain gear, get their bags on carriers, unlocked and locked, then get to school. or all hop into the car, and be at the school in 5~10 mins. That before you factor in other situations, like the kids are out at different times, so that means you might be making multiple runs, and to different schools. Theres after school activities perhaps in a another location. What happens if one bike is not serviceable. One kid is sick.

There's a lot of questions, likely a few presumptions and likely also generalizations in that.

Quick answer: If speed is one of your main concerns, sometimes in our towns and cities getting on bicycles even with children can be faster.

Ireland, Denmark and the Netherlands all have around the same car ownership -- yet, the Netherlands and Denmark have around 20-30% cycling modal share while Ireland only has around 5%...



Do you think that in the Netherlands and Denmark that there are no families who have to deal with different starting times at different schools?

Maybe there's no after school activities perhaps in a another location in the Netherlands or Denmark?

And maybe bicycles are always in good working order in the Netherlands and Denmark?

And maybe their children don't get sick?

Maybe it really does not rain as much in Amsterdam as Dublin? Maybe that's just a cycling lobby lie which meteorologists are in on?

beauf wrote: »

I'm not saying that the cycling structure doesn't have problems. Its certainly does. just think its stock answer which is trotted out mindlessly a lot of the time.

It's not mindless at all.

Given that we have such a messed up street/road network it can't be mindless pointing to that network quality as a barrier to cycling (and walking).

In your view it's not mindless blaming it:

• on some people having to deal with different starting times at different schools
• after school activities which also happens in the Netherlands or Denmark
• bicycles not always being usable -- which happens around the world, and I'm pretty sure happens to car too?!
• children getting sick -- which not even the Dutch and Danish health systems can stop
• putting rain gear on children

But, let's get this right, you think it is often mindless to blaming it on Ireland's built environment?

beauf

My point was the car is easier for many people in this country.

Other countries have had 40 years of policies restricting motor vehicle use and promoting other forms of transport.

I would quote but I got a forum error about strawman error exceeded.

monument

beauf wrote: »

My point was the car is easier for many people in this country.

Other countries have had 40 years of policies restricting motor vehicle use and promoting other forms of transport.

Part of the problem in Ireland is looking at it from the point of view of "restricting motor vehicle use

Iwannahurl

KevR wrote: »

Are you genuinely interested (i.e. - if someone gives a reason which doesn't match up with your transport ideals, will you try to see it from their point of view)? Or will opinions that are different to yours be dismissed as "illusion"?

I'm interested enough to want to test those reasons to see whether they really stand up to scrutiny.

leftwinger

My son weighs in at just under 6 stone. His bag is just under two stones. This would be similar to training for the marines if he was to do the 15 minute walk to school.

Cookie_Monster

paddyland wrote: »

Many rural roads are entirely unsuitable to let children cycle on, young children anyway.

and many are the best roads you'll ever cycle, without any detail who's to know.

_Brian wrote: »

My. Youngest is 6, she just learned to wobble along in a straight line just this week. Are you suggesting I turn her out on the main road now with her bag on her back !! Presumably I just blow the horn if my car as I speed past, just to encourage her along.

or you could have added those detail initially...
you could of course cycle with them at first, get some exercise, teach them road craft etc

_Brian wrote: »

I think it has to be accepted that some kids will need to be dropped to school. Or taxes raised to put on more free busses.

sure there are some but I firmly believe them majority of those that get driven only do so because of laziness.

Iwannahurl

leftwinger wrote: »

My son weighs in at just under 6 stone. His bag is just under two stones. This would be similar to training for the marines if he was to do the 15 minute walk to school.

When my child first started cycling 3 km to Junior Infants it was on a bike weighing 10 kg, which was around 50% of bodyweight. That would be equivalent to a 90 kg adult on a bike weighing 45 kg, which even a Marine wouldn't do. On the school run it proved impossible to get up hills with such a clunky bike (really a badly-designed and poorly-constructed toy, as many kids bikes are in Ireland), so we copped on and switched to a properly-designed bike weighing 6 kg, equivalent to around 30% of bodyweight. Result: school run no problem at all in terms of locomotion. Parent carried the schoolbag.

How long is your trip to school in km?

beauf

What kinda of panniers' and racks do ye all have on your kids bikes. For their school bags.

jjpep

I cycle my daughter to her primary school in galway city center, distance from our house approx 1 mile. The route we take is on the quietest roads I can find (not a directroute). In another year oor so she will be too heavy to take on the back of the bike. At that point I'll probably have to drive her.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with her being on her own bike till she gets to at least 10 or 11, even with me accompanying her.

leftwinger

Iwannahurl wrote: »

When my child first started cycling 3 km to Junior Infants it was on a bike weighing 10 kg, which was around 50% of bodyweight. That would be equivalent to a 90 kg adult on a bike weighing 45 kg, which even a Marine wouldn't do. On the school run it proved impossible to get up hills with such a clunky bike (really a badly-designed and poorly-constructed toy, as many kids bikes are in Ireland), so we copped on and switched to a properly-designed bike weighing 6 kg, equivalent to around 30% of bodyweight. Result: school run no problem at all in terms of locomotion. Parent carried the schoolbag.

How long is your trip to school in km?

about 1.5km

John_Rambo

Iwannahurl wrote: »

so we copped on and switched to a properly-designed bike weighing 6 kg, equivalent to around 30% of bodyweight?

What was the make of the lighter bike Iwannahurl?

RainyDay

leftwinger wrote: »

My son weighs in at just under 6 stone. His bag is just under two stones.

This is madness - what class/year is this for? I'd be asking the schools some questions under health and safety legislation about this.

SeanW

Shouldn't this entire thread be in the Cycling forum?

monument

SeanW wrote: »

Shouldn't this entire thread be in the Cycling forum?

No. This is forum is Commuting and Transport, not just Public Transport Commuting as some people see it. And in any case walking is also being talked about. Back on topic, thanks.

-- Moderator

blackwhite

monument wrote: »

From the Rules of the Road:



The 30km/h part is illuminated when on -- which should be usually only at school hours in term.

There are 50km/h and 60km/h versions of these on N-roads.

In theory these are great.

Unfortunately we get the Irish version that flashes at 3pm every Saturday and Sunday, as well as every day during the summer as well.

blackwhite

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm sure your remark is meant to be very clever but I don't get it. The only way of dealing with Ireland's many, many problems is to acknowledge their existence rather than making a joke of them. One of the creatures featured in the attached news report http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/two-men-appear-in-court-in-connection-to-violent-death-30596989.html haunted the streets of my local town and he, and his type, is one of the reasons my children aged 10 + 12 are always driven or accompanied to school. The town is full of strangers/foreigners and there's no way I'm prepared to take any chances. Add in the fact that many motorists shouldn't be on the roads at all...yeah sure let the kids walk and wait for the phonecall.

Wow.......... foreigners are more likely to be a threat to children? No more holidays for us I guess

Iwannahurl

blackwhite wrote: »

Wow.......... foreigners are more likely to be a threat to children? No more holidays for us I guess

Scary, isn't it? Which is why I mentioned Denmark and the Netherlands -- full of foreigners.

Don't even start me on the rest of Europe...

Iwannahurl

Anyway, back on topic I hope.

Just this morning on the school run I encountered a mother with two children. She had the younger child on the back of her bike, with the older one cycling her own bike.

I enquired about her school run, with particular reference to the challenges of navigating nearby junctions with children in tow, including at one spot where Galway City Council has failed to provide a crossing despite Bord Pleanala orders dating back several years.

From her brief comments I'd say her school run is at least 4 km. Driving is not an option as she doesn't have a car. She said that in her family circumstances the bus would cost her €60 a week (at least that's what I think I heard her say -- the traffic was noisy) which she can't afford.

Is that figure of €60 plausible? Did I hear her wrong? Or if that's what she really said, is she correct?

Seaswimmer

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Anyway, back on topic I hope.

Just this morning on the school run I encountered a mother with two children. She had the younger child on the back of her bike, with the older one cycling her own bike.

I enquired about her school run, with particular reference to the challenges of navigating nearby junctions with children in tow, including at one spot where Galway City Council has failed to provide a crossing despite Bord Pleanala orders dating back several years.

From her brief comments I'd say her school run is at least 4 km. Driving is not an option as she doesn't have a car. She said that in her family circumstances the bus would cost her €60 a week (at least that's what I think I heard her say -- the traffic was noisy) which she can't afford.

Is that figure of €60 plausible? Did I hear her wrong? Or if that's what she really said, is she correct?

I would say if its a private bus then its quite realistic. Roughly €2 per child per trip..

monument

blackwhite wrote: »

In theory these are great.

Unfortunately we get the Irish version that flashes at 3pm every Saturday and Sunday, as well as every day during the summer as well.

That's not my experance of them in Dublin City or Mayo.

Iwannahurl

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I would say if its a private bus then its quite realistic. Roughly €2 per child per trip..

I just did a quick check with Bus Eireann.

If I heard her correctly the woman said she had four children. The others could be of school age, or they could be younger than the two she had with her on bikes.

If she was referring to single-ticket prices, then the figure of €60 seems plausible for herself and four kids, based on the assumption that multiple bus trips are required for kids of different ages with different pick-up times.

However, there is also a monthly ticket which gives unlimited travel for each child at a cost of €31 and for herself at €65.50. That would indicate a weekly outlay of around €47.

Obviously I don't know her specific circumstances, but I must mention it to her next time in case she's not aware of the potential cost savings. It will be interesting to know whether the bus service would meet her needs in any case.

blackwhite

monument wrote: »

That's not my experance of them in Dublin City or Mayo.

I've come across them in Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim and Mayo (north of the count) - the joys of travelling around playing football on weekends!

My favourite (although admittedly this was around 10 years ago) a school in south Roscommon, somewhere between Ballinasloe and Roscommon town. I was going out with a lass from the area at the time, and her auld lad was after collecting us from a 21st in Roscommon.
On the way home we passed their local school and the lights were flashing, at 3am. Lights had been set to go at 9, 2 and 3 - regardless of AM or PM

Godge

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It is Ireland after all. However, a key point is that there are very good reasons to promote walking and cycling to school, and none at all to promote or facilitate driving. Moreover, walking and cycling do not cause death and injury in the way driving does, so enforcement priorities are, or ought to be, very different.

The lack of enforcement (eg of parking violations, speeding, red light breaking etc) is one way in which the convenience of driving to school is maximised.

Walking and cycling may not cause death and injury but child pedestrians and child cyclists are more vulnerable to being killed than children in proper car seats.

Godge

This is the Commuting and Transport Forum not the Health and Fitness Forum so we should leave aside questions about what is best for Health and Fitness and focus on the commuting issues.

I really don't understand the commuting objections to people driving their children to school. Is it because posters would prefer to see the roads kept clear of multiple-occupant cars so that single-occupant cars would have a quicker trip to work?

School runs, which involve several people in a car are not the biggest problem. The biggest problem are people who drive alone into work and home from work. They take up a disproportionate amount of road space for the number of people commuting.

Someone who drops two younger children at one school, an older child at another and a college-going child at a train station before travelling on to work by car is exactly the type of commuter who will not be able to leave the car at home.

Iwannahurl

Godge wrote: »

Walking and cycling may not cause death and injury but child pedestrians and child cyclists are more vulnerable to being killed than children in proper car seats.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. If child pedestrians and cyclists are more vulnerable, the danger they are exposed to in the vast majority of cases comes from motor traffic, including cars which may have children safely strapped inside them. What are we to conclude? That parents should give up encouraging/enabling their children to walk and cycle to school?

Iwannahurl

Godge wrote: »

This is the Commuting and Transport Forum not the Health and Fitness Forum so we should leave aside questions about what is best for Health and Fitness and focus on the commuting issues.

I really don't understand the commuting objections to people driving their children to school. Is it because posters would prefer to see the roads kept clear of multiple-occupant cars so that single-occupant cars would have a quicker trip to work?

School runs, which involve several people in a car are not the biggest problem. The biggest problem are people who drive alone into work and home from work. They take up a disproportionate amount of road space for the number of people commuting.

Someone who drops two younger children at one school, an older child at another and a college-going child at a train station before travelling on to work by car is exactly the type of commuter who will not be able to leave the car at home.

The Boards boundaries are entirely artificial, and the health benefit of active travel to school is a major reason for promoting walking and cycling among school children. Incidentally, it's also a good reason to promote public transport, since that mode is also healthier and safer.

We've already seen that only a minority of people doing the school run by car are going on to work.

It is also well known that the school run is a major contributor to traffic congestion. In Galway, for example, it has been reported that school travel adds 25-33% to commuter traffic during term time.

You have a point here:

Is it because posters would prefer to see the roads kept clear of multiple-occupant cars so that single-occupant cars would have a quicker trip to work?

My guess is that a lot of the media coverage about school traffic problems is, er, driven by motorists' concerns. In other words, the majority of people driving to work want something to be done about the majority of people driving to school, presumably because the former group believe they are even more important than the latter. And they're all more important than pedestrians, cyclists and bus users, as we know.

Here in Galway there's a Park & Stride scheme, which invites people not to drive to the school, or even just to drive past it, in order to avail of "free" parking while they unload the kids before walking (back) a relatively short distance to the school. One of the scheme's stated objectives is to reduce traffic congestion around the participating schools.

monument

Note to all:

Godge wrote: »

This is the Commuting and Transport Forum not the Health and Fitness Forum so we should leave aside questions about what is best for Health and Fitness and focus on the commuting issues.

Next person who isn't a mod or admin to even hint at getting back on topic or saying what can or can't be talked about will be infracted or banned for a few days.

And I'm making this clear ruling: Active travel is clearly a Commuting and Transport issue. So is the environmental affects of travel.

No on-thread reply will be tolerated -- PM only.

-- Moderator

Godge

Iwannahurl wrote: »

My guess is that a lot of the media coverage about school traffic problems is, er, driven by motorists' concerns. In other words, the majority of people driving to work want something to be done about the majority of people driving to school, presumably because the former group believe they are even more important than the latter. And they're all more important than pedestrians, cyclists and bus users, as we know.

.

That is my main point. In the order of things, a car with several people in it (including children) is less of a commuting problem than a car with a single person in it yet most of the media attention is on the school run.

We should be focussing on the work run as the commuting problem. The biggest problem is the young single person with a bit of money who buys a car as a status symbol and drives to work. The family with multiple commuting issues, shopping issues, collecting issues, etc. is the problem that is most difficult to solve.

Tiger Mcilroy

Godge wrote: »

That is my main point. In the order of things, a car with several people in it (including children) is less of a commuting problem than a car with a single person in it yet most of the media attention is on the school run.

We should be focussing on the work run as the commuting problem. The biggest problem is the young single person with a bit of money who buys a car as a status symbol and drives to work. The family with multiple commuting issues, shopping issues, collecting issues, etc. is the problem that is most difficult to solve.

Most of the media attention is on the school run as there is a perception that a lot of the traffic issues are caused by parents driving relatively short distances then parking inappropriately which is having a negative wider impact on people trying to get to work.

Your particular situation with multiple drop offs would appear to not be the norm so claiming that its the commuters and single occupied vehicles being the main cause of localized traffic problems around schools is not correct.

Iwannahurl

Godge wrote: »

That is my main point. In the order of things, a car with several people in it (including children) is less of a commuting problem than a car with a single person in it yet most of the media attention is on the school run.

We should be focussing on the work run as the commuting problem. The biggest problem is the young single person with a bit of money who buys a car as a status symbol and drives to work. The family with multiple commuting issues, shopping issues, collecting issues, etc. is the problem that is most difficult to solve.

We need to focus on both, because both are part of the same overall problem, which is car dependence.

Firstly, while I think of it, the habits formed when travelling to school will most likely continue into adulthood. I remember being carried on my mother's bike, and I cycled and walked to school most of the time. I want the same for my children. If we can change school travel behaviour we stand a better chance of changing future work travel.

Secondly, the school run is a major contributor to traffic congestion, while congestion can be a deterrent to cycling, walking or taking the bus. Think of cyclists who can't access cycle lanes, or pedestrians driven off the footpaths by illegally parked cars, or bus passengers held up in traffic jams. The greatest cost of this congestion is borne not by those who are causing it, but by those who by their mode of travel are actually helping to alleviate it.

There are other opportunity costs as well. In Galway, some people would prefer to spend lots more public money (say €300 million or so) on creating more capacity for cars rather than spend, say, a tenth of that on transportation demand management which would reallocate existing road space to walking, cycling and public transport.

niallb

Iwannahurl wrote: »

...
However, there is also a monthly ticket which gives unlimited travel for each child at a cost of €31 and for herself at €65.50. That would indicate a weekly outlay of around €47...

If a family doesn't qualify for a school bus ticket for whatever reason, or if the service is not available in their area, they will usually have to use a private bus.
Private bus companies don't accept Bus Eireann travel passes, and I'm pretty sure even Bus Eireann School Transport services don't take the ordinary travel pass either.

Where we live, our son takes a bus to school which picks him up at 7:35 and gets him to school at about 8:25. It takes a pretty roundabout route, but it's a 10km trip to the secondary school even driving directly. The ticket is only valid to and from school and costs €350 per year per child. There is a similar primary school scheme which is about €100 per child per year if you qualify. As far as I know, if you have a medical card, there is no charge for the ticket at all, but you still need to prove you're eligible for the service.

There is also a private service running a similar route, and it costs €5 per day return per child.

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

The strange thing I can't understand is that some posters seem to see absolutely no reason acceptable that children get dropped to school.. This is a quite blinkered view on life.

Definitely there are kids who could indeed walk/cycle rather than be dropped to the school, but equally there are those for whom the only sensible option is for them to be dropped by car.

It seriously discredits a person's point if they cannot accept that it cannot be 100% applied to EVERY situation no matter what.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

- child lives more than a 20 minute walk from school and cannot use a bike for some reason;
- child lives in a rural area where the path to school has no footpath and is dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists alike;
- child lives a commute away from school and public transport isn't an option;

These are good reasons to drive a kid to school.

- child's bag is heavy;
- I'm afraid something may happen on the short walk to and from school;

Bad reasons imo.

A 15 - 20 minute walk to and from school will be of great benefit to your child. It gives some them easy exercise. It ingrains accountability from an early age for planning to leave early enough to get where you're going on time in the morning. It forces them to be organised and prepare for the day ahead and only take what they need depending on their timetable.

Barring medical / physical impairments, if your kid reaches the end of secondary school unable to move a reasonably full backpack (and maybe a sports bag too) for a couple of kilometres then you've failed them as a parent imo.

All very sensible points.

JayRoc

Godge wrote: »

Walking and cycling may not cause death and injury but child pedestrians and child cyclists are more vulnerable to being killed than children in proper car seats.

Beg pardon? Have you any evidence whatsoever to back that up?

Iwannahurl

_Brian wrote: »

All very sensible points.

In my opinion a bike is an ideal solution for the heavy schoolbag problem, where walking and cycling are possible.

This Dutch TV report discusses the issue of heavy schoolbags in the Netherlands: http://www.radartv.nl/uitzending/archief/detail/aflevering/18-09-2006/zware-schooltassen/

In the clip lots of kids are cycling (naturally) and they could be carrying the bag on their bike instead of their back. Now that I think of it, perhaps it's surprising that the Dutch cyclists are not more organised, or maybe they feel the weight a lot less than the walkers do.

monument

Arriving by bicycle in the Netherlands:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NUgB_xkIvU

More detail here: http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/arriving-at-school-by-bicycle/

Also of interist: Cycling back to school after 34 years: http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2011/09/29/cycling-back-to-school/

And this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrQ-d2PBUto

Note: Low percentage of students with bags on them in the second video - and in the first video at least 50-60% in the foreground were using their bikes to carry at least one bag, it was harder to tell.

beauf

Thats a heck of journey commuting from Ireland to Holland to go to school.

monument

beauf wrote: »

Thats a heck of journey commuting from Ireland to Holland to go to school.

In the words of another poster:

Beg pardon?

beauf

Rather than posting things about Holland why not contrast that with the same experience in Ireland.

Post a video of a 5k journey to school in Dublin. (form the link - 84% pupils living closer than 5km from their school cycle)

Since (my assumption) the thread is why do kids not cycle to school in Ireland.

Iwannahurl

Here are a couple of images illustrating the Irish experience. Both photos were taken in Galway on "National Cycle to School and Work Day" in 2011.

I can state with absolute certainty that a significant proportion of children in each school are driven distances of 4 km or less. In fact, I know of some parents driving less than 1 km.

monument

beauf wrote: »

Rather than posting things about Holland why not contrast that with the same experience in Ireland.

Post a video of a 5k journey to school in Dublin. (form the link - 84% pupils living closer than 5km from their school cycle)

Since (my assumption) the thread is why do kids not cycle to school in Ireland.

My post was mainly referring to the issue referred to in the posts directly proceeding it (ie school bag issue) and the other link added on because they came from the same blog. The main point of my post is that at least more than 50% put their bags on their bicycles (notably more in one of the videos) and that's a lesson we can learn from the Netherlands now.

BTW: Den Bosch, Culemborg, and Utrecht as featured in videos/link are not in Holland. They are in other parts of the Netherlands. That's an important distinction in itself as Utrecht and other cities (outside the two Holland regions) have a lot to teach Ireland as a whole (even if Amsterdam, in North Holland, may still be the best example overall for Dublin). Clearly none of this matters: I'm just trying to make up for when I called the country Holland to Dutch friends.