Church Closures

Piliger

krudler wrote: »

Try me, is it the bible? bet it's the bible. It's usually the bible.

Ya have to laugh don't ya ... :cool:

Cabaal

J C wrote: »

Yes, there are about 90% cultural Christians in Ireland ... and the Saved ones are few and far between.
... but this has always been the case ... and always will ... narrow is the road that leads to Salvation ... and few there be that find it.

Who are the unsaved one's?

Are the dead baby's buried in cest pits saved or unsaved?
Must be saved surely, after all the nuns took care of them and made sure they received a fine christian burial.

Unfortunately it seems the nuns may have decided to "take care" of the baby's in a sort of mafia sort of way rather then mothering sort of way.

Cabaal

J C wrote: »

Plenty of evidence ... but none that you guys will accept.

so no actual provable evidence then?

J C, I have unicorn in my back yard. Its real and its invisible. It exists and I have plenty of evidence. But most likely it won't be good enough evidence for you.

Piliger wrote: »

Ya have to laugh don't ya ... :cool:

I would if the whole "I have plenty of evidence of god existing... but none that you guys will accept." wasn't so tragic

Hotblack Desiato

J C wrote: »

... and there is nothing that God and I can do about it.

So neither of you are omnipotent then :cool:

krudler

Cabaal wrote: »

so no actual provable evidence then?

J C, I have unicorn in my back yard. Its real and its invisible. It exists and I have plenty of evidence. But most likely it won't be good enough evidence for you.

I read a book about wizards, so obviously wizards exist, the evidence is in the text.

Hotblack Desiato

It is if you read it with an open heart Krudler.

Also, CONTEXT!!!

uck51js9zml2yt

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So neither of you are omnipotent then :cool:

That's the thing about free-will. Even God won't go against it. It makes choosing to believe all the more a miracle.
But having believed, we come to know the truth of what we have believed.

Hotblack Desiato

Yeah I should give thanks to the god who created me and gave me free will not to believe in him so he can burn me in hell.

J C

Cabaal wrote: »

so no actual provable evidence then?

J C, I have unicorn in my back yard. Its real and its invisible. It exists and I have plenty of evidence. But most likely it won't be good enough evidence for you.

I hear that the last one of them yokes died in the Flood ... it was a sub-species of the Horse Kind.:):D

Cabaal wrote: »

I would if the whole "I have plenty of evidence of god existing... but none that you guys will accept." wasn't so tragic

Very true ... but it's a self inflicted tragedy ... like breaking your big toe, by kicking a door!!!:):D

J C

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yeah I should give thanks to the god who created me and gave me free will not to believe in him so he can burn me in hell.

God isn't going to do that ... but the Devil just might.

J C

krudler wrote: »

I read a book about wizards, so obviously wizards exist, the evidence is in the text.

Warlocks and wizards do indeed exist.

Brian Shanahan

Jasmine Acidic Seal wrote: »

That's the thing about free-will. Even God won't go against it. It makes choosing to believe all the more a miracle.
But having believed, we come to know the truth of what we have believed.

On your first point, so you accept that the post you replied [Edit: Hotblack Desiato's post] to is correct, and that the god you believe in is not all powerful (as free will negates omnipotence. Also it [free will] is not contained in the bible, it was brought in as a post hoc explanation for all the people defying "his" will especially in the earlier torah passages {which themselves cause more problems, because they clearly describe a being who was part of a pantheon} when the more intelligent members of the flock started picking holes in scripture). You are thus not christian, as you do not accept the new testament cover of the god myth.

Re your second point, so your test for truthfulness is "the less I can prove the more truthful it is" (and that's not me misunderstanding what you say). That is just messed up, that.

krudler

J C wrote: »

Very true ... but it's a self inflicted tragedy ... like breaking your big toe, by kicking a door!!!:):D

Ah the "everyone's a sinner" idea, abhorrent concept that it is, if you're happy being subject to a masochist then more power to ya. I'll be in hell (if it existed, which it doesn't) with all the interesting people.

kylith

krudler wrote: »

Try me, is it the bible? bet it's the bible. It's usually the bible.

Also a 'feeling'. But, like, a really strong feeling. And puppies and kittens. Oh, and sunsets.

Jasmine Acidic Seal wrote: »

That's the thing about free-will. Even God won't go against it. It makes choosing to believe all the more a miracle.
But having believed, we come to know the truth of what we have believed.

Except that we don't. If God has a plan, which we're told he does, then we don't have free will (and me and my atheist buddies were created specifically so we can burn in hell). If we do have free will then God can't have a plan.

Mark Hamill

Jasmine Acidic Seal wrote: »

That's the thing about free-will. Even God won't go against it.

Which makes prayer entirely pointless.

Jasmine Acidic Seal wrote: »

But having believed, we come to know the truth of what we have believed.

Yes, generally people do believe to be true the things they believe to be true. Got any other logically redundant soundbites?

Mark Hamill

pwurple wrote: »

I'd wager they are the same principles you follow yourself.

I for one don't advocate the killing of children who curse their parents (NB: that's also the passage which shows Jesus didn't know what germs are).

pwurple wrote: »

Most of the western world have very similar moral values. Shared judeo-christian heritage anyone?

Pretty sure basic morals (don't kill, don't steal etc.) far pre-date christianity.

Brian Shanahan

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I for one don't advocate the killing of children who curse their parents (NB: that's also the passage which shows Jesus didn't know what germs were).


Pretty sure basic morals (don't kill, don't steal etc.) far pre-date christianity.

The secular law code of Hammurabi is far superior than anything you could possibly construct from the loophole strewn and often sadistic strictures in the abrahamic religious writings. For example it contains the first known example of the rule of habeas corpus, something not to be seen in "christian" realms until the enlightenment.

EoghanIRL

J C wrote: »

God isn't going to do that ... but the Devil just might.

God , the devil ... How many other fictional characters do you believe in ?

So I have a question for you.
" god loves all of his creation / love one another as I have loved you " but not gay people . They are not welcome to receive the Eucharist or have other rights which Christians can have . So if you believe in God and you follow his teachings as a Christian should , do you also exclude and ostracize gay people ?
This is just one example of hypocrisy which you will find in " the word of god " .
An " all loving god " .. Lol

Nick Park

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

The secular law code of Hammurabi is far superior than anything you could possibly construct from the loophole strewn and often sadistic strictures in the abrahamic religious writings. For example it contains the first known example of the rule of habeas corpus, something not to be seen in "christian" realms until the enlightenment.

Here's a link to the text of this 'secular law code': http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/hammurabi.htm

Note the preface with its numerous references to multiple Gods, offerings in temples, and the assertion that Hammurabi was commissioned by the gods to set laws in the land. The clear message is that Hammurabi was enforcing the will of the gods, and that disobedience to his laws would offend the gods.

In the epilogue, after stressing that it is by direct authority from the gods that he is a 'salvation bearing shepherd', Hammurabi goes on to enjoin those who read his Code to pray with full heart to Marduk and Zarpanit in order to obtain the help of the protecting deities and gods.

He then goes on to assert that the gods will bless subsequent rulers who adhere to his rules, but for those who fail to do so he calls down the following curse:

May the great God (Anu), the Father of the gods, who has ordered my rule, withdraw from him the glory of royalty, break his scepter, curse his destiny. May Bel, the lord, who fixeth destiny, whose command can not be altered, who has made my kingdom great, order a rebellion which his hand can not control; may he let the wind of the overthrow of his habitation blow, may he ordain the years of his rule in groaning, years of scarcity, years of famine, darkness without light, death with seeing eyes be fated to him; may he (Bel) order with his potent mouth the destruction of his city, the dispersion of his subjects, the cutting off of his rule, the removal of his name and memory from the land. May Belit, the great Mother, whose command is potent in E-Kur (the Babylonian Olympus), the Mistress, who harkens graciously to my petitions, in the seat of judgment and decision (where Bel fixes destiny), turn his affairs evil before Bel, and put the devastation of his land, the destruction of his subjects, the pouring out of his life like water into the mouth of King Bel. May Ea, the great ruler, whose fated decrees come to pass, the thinker of the gods, the omniscient, who maketh long the days of my life, withdraw understanding and wisdom from him, lead him to forgetfulness, shut up his rivers at their sources, and not allow corn or sustenance for man to grow in his land. May Shamash, the great Judge of heaven and earth, who supporteth all means of livelihood, Lord of life-courage, shatter his dominion, annul his law, destroy his way, make vain the march of his troops, send him in his visions forecasts of the uprooting of the foundations of his throne and of the destruction of his land. May the condemnation of Shamash overtake him forthwith; may he be deprived of water above among the living, and his spirit below in the earth. May Sin (the Moon-god), the Lord of Heaven, the divine father, whose crescent gives light among the gods, take away the crown and regal throne from him; may he put upon him heavy guilt, great decay, that nothing may be lower than he. May he destine him as fated, days, months and years of dominion filled with sighing and tears, increase of the burden of dominion, a life that is like unto death. May Adad, the lord of fruitfulness, ruler of heaven and earth, my helper, withhold from him rain from heaven, and the flood of water from the springs, destroying his land by famine and want; may he rage mightily over his city, and make his land into flood-hills (heaps of ruined cities). May Zamama, the great warrior, the first-born son of E-Kur, who goeth at my right hand, shatter his weapons on the field of battle, turn day into night for him, and let his foe triumph over him. May Ishtar, the goddess of fighting and war, who unfetters my weapons, my gracious protecting spirit, who loveth my dominion, curse his kingdom in her angry heart; in her great wrath, change his grace into evil, and shatter his weapons on the place of fighting and war. May she create disorder and sedition for him, strike down his warriors, that the earth may drink their blood, and throw down the piles of corpses of his warriors on the field; may she not grant him a life of mercy, deliver him into the hands of his enemies, and imprison him in the land of his enemies. May Nergal, the might among the gods, whose contest is irresistible, who grants me victory, in his great might burn up his subjects like a slender reedstalk, cut off his limbs with his mighty weapons, and shatter him like an earthen image. May Nin-tu, the sublime mistress of the lands, the fruitful mother, deny him a son, vouchsafe him no name, give him no successor among men. May Nin-karak, the daughter of Anu, who adjudges grace to me, cause to come upon his members in E-kur high fever, severe wounds, that can not be healed, whose nature the physician does not understand, which he can not treat with dressing, which, like the bite of death, can not be removed, until they have sapped away his life. May he lament the loss of his life-power, and may the great gods of heaven and earth, the Anunaki, altogether inflict a curse and evil upon the confines of the temple, the walls of this E-barra (the Sun temple of Sippara), upon his dominion, his land, his warriors, his subjects, and his troops. May Bel curse him with the potent curses of his mouth that can not be altered, and may they come upon him forthwith.

J C

EoghanIRL wrote: »

God , the devil ... How many other fictional characters do you believe in ?

So I have a question for you.
" god loves all of his creation / love one another as I have loved you " but not gay people . They are not welcome to receive the Eucharist or have other rights which Christians can have . So if you believe in God and you follow his teachings as a Christian should , do you also exclude and ostracize gay people ?
This is just one example of hypocrisy which you will find in " the word of god " .
An " all loving god " .. Lol

I ostracize nobody ... we are all sinners ... some of us have availed of God's mercy and are Saved ... others haven't and aren't (Saved).:)
Quite logical and simple, really.

J C

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

On your first point, so you accept that the post you replied [Edit: Hotblack Desiato's post] to is correct, and that the god you believe in is not all powerful (as free will negates omnipotence.

The voluntary grant of free will to Mankind doesn't negate God's omnipotence.
The granting of free-will was actually an omnipotent act by God.

J C

krudler wrote: »

Ah the "everyone's a sinner" idea, abhorrent concept that it is,

... so you're a paragon of virtue ... and never sin .. eh????

krudler wrote: »

if you're happy being subject to a masochist then more power to ya. I'll be in hell (if it existed, which it doesn't) with all the interesting people.

I assume you have heard that it is a veiled curse to wish somebody 'interesting times' ... and I'd also 'pass' on any 'interesting people' in Hell as well, thank you very much!!!

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by Brian Shanahan
The secular law code of Hammurabi is far superior than anything you could possibly construct from the loophole strewn and often sadistic strictures in the abrahamic religious writings.

Nick Park
Here's a link to the text of this 'secular law code': http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/hammurabi.htm

Note the preface with its numerous references to multiple Gods, offerings in temples, and the assertion that Hammurabi was commissioned by the gods to set laws in the land. The clear message is that Hammurabi was enforcing the will of the gods, and that disobedience to his laws would offend the gods.

In the epilogue, after stressing that it is by direct authority from the gods that he is a 'salvation bearing shepherd', Hammurabi goes on to enjoin those who read his Code to pray with full heart to Marduk and Zarpanit in order to obtain the help of the protecting deities and gods.

He then goes on to assert that the gods will bless subsequent rulers who adhere to his rules ...

Thanks for the link, Nick.

It sounds like the blueprint for some kind of Theocracy rather than the manifesto for a secular society that values diversity.
... but then I have always had my suspicions that some Atheists have a very great faith indeed ... and the so-called 'secular law code of Hammurabi' ... confirms my suspicions.:)

... so Brian, what temple do you worship in ... given your obvious love for ancient pagan deities ... and their rule books?

J C

kylith wrote: »

If God has a plan, which we're told he does, then we don't have free will (and me and my atheist buddies were created specifically so we can burn in hell). If we do have free will then God can't have a plan.

God has a plan ... but we can defy His plan ... or accept His plan.

You were Created as a much-loved child of God ... but you are free to return that love ... or not.

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by tatranska
That's the thing about free-will. Even God won't go against it.

Mark Hamill
Which makes prayer entirely pointless.

God will respond to earnest expressions of free-will such as prayer ... free will actually allows us to pray.:)

MrPudding

J C wrote: »

God will respond to earnest expressions of free-will such as prayer ... free will actually allows us to pray.:)

Does it not irritate you that these days your god seems more interested in helping footballers score goals than, say for example, helping sick and dying children?

I think the whole missionary system is broken. The missionaries seen to be incapable to teaching the sick, needy and dying people of the third world how to pray properly. Perhaps we should send all the successful sports people, those that god apparently helps to be successful, to Africa where they could hold 'Prayer Masterclasses.' That is, assuming they would be happy to see less death and misery in the world at the possible expense of their team's success.

MrP

J C

MrPudding wrote: »

Does it not irritate you that these days your god seems more interested in helping footballers score goals than, say for example, helping sick and dying children?

God will help with both - but we are all born to die because of the Fall.

MrPudding wrote: »

I think the whole missionary system is broken. The missionaries seen to be incapable to teaching the sick, needy and dying people of the third world how to pray properly. Perhaps we should send all the successful sports people, those that god apparently helps to be successful, to Africa where they could hold 'Prayer Masterclasses.' That is, assuming they would be happy to see less death and misery in the world at the possible expense of their team's success.

MrP

... now there is an idea!!!:)
Mr P ... you're brilliant!!!

MrPudding

J C wrote: »

God will help with both - but we are all born to die because of the Fall.

... now there is an idea!!!:)
Mr P ... you're brilliant!!!

It's easy to appear brilliant when one is talking about makey uppy bollocks, though it is a skill you appear not to possess.

MrP

PopePalpatine

J C's posts remind me of those creepy permanently-smiling characters in primary school Irish textbooks. I'd honestly whack him with the banhammer just for that.

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
Mr P ... you're brilliant!!

MrPudding
It's easy to appear brilliant when one is talking about make ups bollocks[/B],

You're very hard on yourself ... you need to believe in yourself more ... and accept compliments graciously!!!:)

wrote:

MrPudding

It's easy to appear brilliant when one is talking about make ups bollocks though it is a skill you appear not to possess.

I avoid 'testiculating' allright ... and I thank you for the compliment Mr P.:)

J C

PopePalpatine wrote: »

J C's posts remind me of those creepy permanently-smiling characters in primary school Irish textbooks. I'd honestly whack him with the banhammer just for that.

When all else fails ... and you run out of plausible arguments ... you call for the censorship and silencing of your opponents on some 'trumped up' charge ... like a Medieval Pope!!!

krudler

J C wrote: »

God has a plan ... but we can defy His plan ... or accept His plan.

You were Created as a much-loved child of God ... but you are free to return that love ... or not.

Ah god's plan, where people born in the right country live good lives and others live in abject poverty and contract AIDS in the womb. That plan?

J C

krudler wrote: »

Ah god's plan, where people born in the right country live good lives and others live in abject poverty and contract AIDS in the womb. That plan?

... like I have said, God has a plan ... but we can defy His plan ... or accept His plan.

... and our decisions affect ourselves and others.

Anyway Krudler, are you going to return God's love ... or not?

He speaks highly of you.

krudler

J C wrote: »

... like I have said, God has a plan ... but we can defy His plan ... or accept His plan.

... and our decisions affect ourselves and others.

So what decisions did an baby with AIDS make to affect god's plan? or children butchered in Syria or Palestine or Israel?

Feel free to dodge the question and preach a bit more, it's plain as day to see how flimsy your argument is.

J C

krudler wrote: »

So what decisions did an baby with AIDS make to affect god's plan? or children butchered in Syria or Palestine or Israel?

Like I have said, people's free decisions can affect other people (including children) as well as themselves.

The effects can be positive or negative, depending on their decisions.

krudler

J C wrote: »

Like I have said, people's free decisions can affect other people (including children) as well as themselves.

The effects can be positive or negative, depending on their decisions.

So again, what did a baby do to deserve AIDS?

rozeboosje

Churches can make pretty decent performance venues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradiso_%28Amsterdam%29

rozeboosje

Er... right.... I went a couple of pages back and nobody seems to be talking about how to reuse defunct churches anymore. My bad ROFL

EoghanIRL

J C wrote: »

Like I have said, people's free decisions can affect other people (including children) as well as themselves.

The effects can be positive or negative, depending on their decisions.

God is omnipotent . So he knew that these bad things would happen and allowed them to occur .


How do we stop Isis ? A big flood ?

kylith

J C wrote: »

God has a plan ... but we can defy His plan ... or accept His plan.

You were Created as a much-loved child of God ... but you are free to return that love ... or not.

So God is not omnipotent then? He can't be if his plan can be thwarted by humans.

J C

rozeboosje wrote: »

Churches can make pretty decent performance venues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradiso_%28Amsterdam%29

Churches are performance venues ... for religious purposes. What ye are talking about is using them as performance venues ... for other purposes.

J C

krudler wrote: »

So again, what did a baby do to deserve AIDS?

It did nothing to deserve this ... but death and disease is a result of the fall ... and AIDS is one of these consequences.

J C

EoghanIRL wrote: »

God is omnipotent . So he knew that these bad things would happen and allowed them to occur .

How do we stop Isis ? A big flood ?

Through our own efforts ... and with the help of God ... if we call on Him to help.

J C

kylith wrote: »

So God is not omnipotent then? He can't be if his plan can be thwarted by humans.

He has allowed His omnipotence to be suspended when He granted Humans free will.

recedite

Is that like the Indian rope trick?

krudler

J C wrote: »

It did nothing to deserve this ... but death and disease is a result of the fall ... and AIDS is one of these consequences.

What about AIDS babies who aren't Christians, does he make an exception for them or do they go to hell with the other unbelievers? do people who never heard of Jesus get a quick rundown at the pearly gates and then hit accept? kinda like an eternal end user agreement?

you're perfectly ok with children dying of horrific diseases because god was outsmarted by a talking snake.

ok then.

kylith

J C wrote: »

He has allowed His omnipotence to be suspended when He granted Humans free will.

So he's not bothering with his big Plan so?

krudler

J C wrote: »

He has allowed His omnipotence to be suspended when He granted Humans free will.

do you stop at traffic lights? I presume you do, therefore you don't believe in god's plan for you.

krudler

kylith wrote: »

So he's not bothering with his big Plan so?

No no see he has a specific plan, except when people do something different, which he allows, as part of his plan.

J C

krudler wrote: »

What about AIDS babies who aren't Christians, does he make an exception for them or do they go to hell with the other unbelievers? do people who never heard of Jesus get a quick rundown at the pearly gates and then hit accept? kinda like an eternal end user agreement?

That's kinda how it works allright ... everybody gets to choose between God's justice and God's mercy.

krudler wrote: »

you're perfectly ok with children dying of horrific diseases because god was outsmarted by a talking snake.

Neither myself nor God is happy with this ... but the alternative, of fallen men being immortal, would be unconscionable ... just imagine a thousand Hitlers or Stalins wielding their power hungry brutality (as a result of the fall) ... and they couldn't die (or be killed) ... it would be a recipe for hell on earth for us all.