Guy kicked out of college for having sex with a woman!!!

Czarcasm

Plasid wrote: »

Stupid in so many ways...

He can sue and will win, the university in question add themselves to the stupid pile...

If you read the article, he can't sue as the College policy complies with State Federal laws, so that nullifies the idea that he could win.

Frank Lee Midere

Czarcasm wrote: »

If you read the article, he can't sue as the College policy complies with State Federal laws, so that nullifies the idea that he could win.

Why would he take the case? He *is* suing. I find it hard to believe those are real laws in the US and not just university rules.

Of course he may still lose. You can be expelled from a school for not obeying rules on wearing a uniform which doesn't mean not wearing a uniform is illegal outside the school.

He's probably persuing a discrimination case.


EDIT: yes he is. Btw if he were considered a rapist under federal law he would be pursuing a civil case against the university but be under investigation in a criminal case. The facts are not in dispute here. She was very drunk.

Czarcasm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Why would he take the case? He *is* suing. I find it hard to believe those are real laws in the US and not just university rules.

Of course he may still lose. You can be expelled from a school for not obeying rules on wearing a uniform which doesn't mean not wearing a uniform is illegal outside the school.

He's probably persuing a discrimination case.

Yep, he's filed a lawsuit against the college alright, but the college policy is there in black and white, and because they're a private organization, they can set their own rules -

At the core of this whole case is the arguably simple fact that John Doe was found to have broken Occidental's policy — which, as a private organization, has no obligation to set the same standards as any legal system, although it is required to maintain federal standards in processing sexual-assault allegations.

Per Occidental's policy, students are unable to consent if they are "incapacitated" — a state of being that, although often caused by alcohol, is distinct from drunk or intoxicated.

After examining all of the evidence provided by Occidental's team of outside investigators, an external adjudicator made several key determinations. First, that sexual intercourse had in fact occurred; second, that Jane Doe gave her consent; and, third, that Jane was incapacitated when she did so.

Chances are he filed the lawsuit just to get exposure for his case, but he won't win.

Frank Lee Midere

Czarcasm wrote: »

Yep, he's filed a lawsuit against the college alright, but the college policy is there in black and white, and because they're a private organization, they can set their own rules -




Chances are he filed the lawsuit just to get exposure for his case, but he won't win.

You said he can't sue. Not that he couldn't win.

He is - I assume - claiming unequal treatment and could win on that. Private club or not.

Potatoeman

Czarcasm wrote: »

Yep, he's filed a lawsuit against the college alright, but the college policy is there in black and white, and because they're a private organization, they can set their own rules -




Chances are he filed the lawsuit just to get exposure for his case, but he won't win.

So should she be kicked out too?

Czarcasm

Potatoeman wrote: »

So should she be kicked out too?

My own personal opinion is that the idea that a person can retrospectively claim they were raped on the basis that they suffered ill effects after what by all accounts was consensual sex at the time, is utterly insane.

That'll make no difference to this case though, but I sure as hell hope it doesn't catch on over this side of the pond.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

I don't know that the idea of the woman as always the victim is due to liberalism/feminism. Could be wrong though. I know some feminism certainly perpetuates it, but not sure that it created it. If anything, it's a conservative/traditional notion.

I'm of the opinion that it is the other way around. Conservative/traditional notions would never have put women as the victim, (even though they were!) such as how you could rape your wife legally, domestic violence being a 'non issue', women having 'illegitimate' children being treated like crap by society ect.
I think extreme liberalism and a certain type of feminism have put us here (not conservatism). It fits in with the whole women shouldn't go to jail narrative as female criminals are actually just victims. It's a skewed way to look at society.

dfx-

Wibbs wrote: »

The tragedy and joke is this poor bastard has been kicked out of university. Even though she went to him and fcuked him willingly(and her texts prove this), but because she has a change of heart and can blame diminished responsibility(because of her gender), he loses out and his life is potentially if not actually ruined. He can kiss goodbye to another US college looking at him for a start.

Reading the article, there was at least some time between the texts and the 'event' - enough time to change one's mind?

If you make one decision, should you be held to that if you change your mind ten minutes later?

Direct Current

I can't decide whether the name of the website on which that story is published, is very appropriate or highly inappropriate given the story!

tritium

dfx- wrote: »

Reading the article, there was at least some time between the texts and the 'event' - enough time to change one's mind?

If you make one decision, should you be held to that if you change your mind ten minutes later?

Except there no claim that she changed her mind....

Timberrrrrrrr

TheZohan wrote: »

A drunk person cannot give consent.

Bollox

Legally; a woman can not rape a man.

Even bigger bollox

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/apr/28/2

A 23-year-old Norwegian woman was sentenced to nine months in prison yesterday after she was convicted of raping a man.

http://metro.co.uk/2014/09/14/woman-rapes-man-while-hes-sleeping-after-pinning-his-hands-over-his-head-4868874/

Woman ‘rapes man while he’s sleeping after pinning his hands over his head’

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/06/cierra-ross-charged-raping-man_n_3882608.html

A Chicago woman was jailed after being accused of picking up a stranger in her car and forcing him to have sex with another woman in the back of the vehicle.

tritium

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Bollox



Even bigger bollox

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/apr/28/2



http://metro.co.uk/2014/09/14/woman-rapes-man-while-hes-sleeping-after-pinning-his-hands-over-his-head-4868874/



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/06/cierra-ross-charged-raping-man_n_3882608.html

I think the key here is which jurisdiction. Too many posters seem to jump on the the fundamentally flawed sh1t that passes for law in this country and apply it universally. I don't know what by the statute book looks like in that part of the US so I'll give them the benefit of doubt and assume they're enlightened enough to be open to the possibility.

Timberrrrrrrr

tritium wrote: »

I think the key here is which jurisdiction. Too many posters seem to jump on the the fundamentally flawed sh1t that passes for law in this country and apply it universally. I don't know what by the statute book looks like in that part of the US so I'll give them the benefit of doubt and assume they're enlightened enough to be open to the possibility.

Tru, if he is on about in this country then i wouldn't be surprised because there are days i still think it's the 1800's the laws are that backwards. The op news article is about the good ole US of A and one of the links provided is about a case in Chicago although they have different state laws i would presume rape is a federal offence over their. Anywho regardless of that it still proves that women CAN and DO get charged and jailed for raping a man

loh_oro

Absolute rubbish! Its actually the man that's the victim here as his name is now tainted and his life pretty much destroyed. How long before this kind of rubbish makes its way over here

RDM_83 again

I don't really understand how the college can be compliant with the federal directive about gender equality mentioned in the article.

But the president can say when both people involved are intoxicated and give consent its the male that is responsible?

Akrasia

Every pub I've ever been to in every country I've ever been to, has had condom machines in the toilets.

If it was impossible to consent to sex while drunk, then these condom machines should be replaced with cold shower kiosks and television screens showing fatal attraction on constant loop.

Shakespeare's Sister

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that it is the other way around. Conservative/traditional notions would never have put women as the victim, (even though they were!) such as how you could rape your wife legally, domestic violence being a 'non issue', women having 'illegitimate' children being treated like crap by society ect.
I think extreme liberalism and a certain type of feminism have put us here (not conservatism). It fits in with the whole women shouldn't go to jail narrative as female criminals are actually just victims. It's a skewed way to look at society.

True, but there's also the old-skool stuff of "women and children only" and protecting the wimmenz. As Wibbs said, the notion that a woman cannot rape is an old-fashioned one.

Timberrrrrrrr

dfx- wrote: »

Reading the article, there was at least some time between the texts and the 'event' - enough time to change one's mind?

If you make one decision, should you be held to that if you change your mind ten minutes later?

This is the bit i can't understand, She didn't change her mind and an investigator hired by the college says she consented to sex. OK she was drunk and so was he (both say drunker than they have ever been) But then surely she should be held responsible as SHE went to his room and had sex with him therefore making her the instigator.

An outside investigator hired by the college concluded that both John Doe and Jane Doe made statements indicating their consent the night they had sex.

Akrasia

The most irritating thing about this is that i reckon, about 90% of straight single male students would not be able to resist the advances of a pretty girl calling to his room at night looking for sex while they're both drunk.

This guy has had his life potentially ruined for doing something that the vast majority of his peers would also do given the same circumstances.

The J Stands for Jay

I was going to ask the question, but it was answered in the article:

"Assuming it is a male and female, it is the responsibility in the case of the male to gain consent before proceeding with sex."

The J Stands for Jay

TheZohan wrote: »

Legally; a woman can not rape a man.

Only in our crazy-ass country (I hope).

Timberrrrrrrr

Akrasia wrote: »

The most irritating thing about this is that i reckon, about 90% of straight single male students would not be able to resist the advances of a pretty girl calling to his room at night looking for sex while they're both drunk.

This guy has had his life potentially ruined for doing something that the vast majority of his peers would also do given the same circumstances.

I think most lads at some stage of their lives have or will have sex with a drunk woman, Going by these idiotic laws that means most straight men are rapists.

AudreyHepburn

TheZohan wrote: »

A drunk person cannot give consent.

Yes they most certainly can. And who here could honestly claim they haven't done it. I have.

Had I had a lot to drink? Yes Did I regret it the next day ? Absolutely yes. Does that mean I have the right to accuse him of raping me? No of course not and to suggest that because I drank a few too many glasses of wine that night means I did not actually agree to anything is rubbish.

Legally; a woman can not rape a man.

Sorry I refuse to believe this. This is nothing more than feminist rambling.

Anyone can be taken advantage of. Anyone can be raped or a rapist, gender is irrelevant.

The woman in this story was no more raped than I was. She made a stupid choice, regretted it the next day and decided to deal with it by making the unfortunate man pay.

A selfish vindictive thing to do.

Timberrrrrrrr

McGaggs wrote: »

I was going to ask the question, but it was answered in the article:

"Assuming it is a male and female, it is the responsibility in the case of the male to gain consent before proceeding with sex."

Which the male did do

An outside investigator hired by the college concluded that both John Doe and Jane Doe made statements indicating their consent the night they had sex.

Wibbs

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

This is the bit i can't understand, She didn't change her mind and an investigator hired by the college says she consented to sex. OK she was drunk and so was he (both say drunker than they have ever been) But then surely she should be held responsible as SHE went to his room and had sex with him therefore making her the instigator.

Oh it's mad alright T, but it is a US college. In the last 20 years they have become bastions of cliched "PC" and so called "liberal"(actually extremely left wing) and (rad) feminist thought. Put it another way if the Daily Mail wrote an article entitled "PC thinking is destroying thought in US colleges" it would be one of those vanishingly rare times you could actually believe what you were reading.

Some of the stuff they take seriously in areas like "women's studies" courses would have you either scratching your head or guffawing with mirth. The problem comes when some of that nonsense makes its way into the real world. Usually via the media and many of the content producers who have been schooled in such environments to believe the BS.

The J Stands for Jay

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Which the male did do

Sorry, the question I was going to ask is what's stopping him from crying rape now that he regrets what happened. And I'm pretty sure he regrets it.

Reindeer

Gezuz. Things sure were different when I was in university stateside 20 years ago. It was one drunken sexual encounter after another. Apparently, most of the student body would have been done for rape nowadays.

I miss college

Fat Christy

Tigger wrote: »

I've had women turn up knowing I've got a girlfriend turn up with a bottle of Jack and after the bottle was drank we did the bad thing

All in all I regretted it but I'm pretty sure at some point I sorta consented
Now it turns out I was raped

Has Kesha been visiting you?

Timberrrrrrrr

McGaggs wrote: »

Sorry, the question I was going to ask is what's stopping him from crying rape now that he regrets what happened. And I'm pretty sure he regrets it.

Because apparently a woman can't rape a man

Frank Lee Midere

McGaggs wrote: »

Sorry, the question I was going to ask is what's stopping him from crying rape now that he regrets what happened. And I'm pretty sure he regrets it.

Because the university rules make female consent, not male consent, dependent on levels of inebriation and puts the onus on the male, not the female, to know that regardless of his drunkeness.

Frank Lee Midere

tritium wrote: »

I think the key here is which jurisdiction. Too many posters seem to jump on the the fundamentally flawed sh1t that passes for law in this country and apply it universally. I don't know what by the statute book looks like in that part of the US so I'll give them the benefit of doubt and assume they're enlightened enough to be open to the possibility.

How do Irish laws even come into this. If this had happened at an Irish college it wouldn't be an issue.

Fat Christy

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Because apparently a woman can't rape a man

A woman can't rape a man under Irish law. You might not agree with it but that's that's the law.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

True, but there's also the old-skool stuff of "women and children only" and protecting the wimmenz. As Wibbs said, the notion that a woman cannot rape is an old-fashioned one.

I think an extreme right wing view would be what is practised in a place like Saudi Arabia today, where the woman is blamed (and beaten) when she's raped (for being too sexy?).

I think an extreme left wing view brings us to this situation in that college, where a woman literally cannot consent to sex once she's had a drink and the man is solely responsible for anything that happens (this definition can be expanded quite easily to include medication such as anti-depressants, which literally leads us to how potentially all male/female consensual sex is not in fact sex, but actual rape).

Reality is in the middle of the two where I believe the vast majority of people's opinions lay anyway.

Timberrrrrrrr

Fat Christy wrote: »

A woman can't rape a man under Irish law. You might not agree with it but that's that's the law.

A woman CAN rape a man, it's just our antiquated laws don't recognize this.

Fat Christy

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

A woman CAN rape a man, it's just our antiquated laws don't recognize this.

Yes, I would agree with that.

In fairness, it also states in the statute book, that a woman's place is in the home. It's never been amended or removed!

Potatoeman

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh it's mad alright T, but it is a US college. In the last 20 years they have become bastions of cliched "PC" and so called "liberal"(actually extremely left wing) and (rad) feminist thought. Put it another way if the Daily Mail wrote an article entitled "PC thinking is destroying thought in US colleges" it would be one of those vanishingly rare times you could actually believe what you were reading.

Some of the stuff they take seriously in areas like "women's studies" courses would have you either scratching your head or guffawing with mirth. The problem comes when some of that nonsense makes its way into the real world. Usually via the media and many of the content producers who have been schooled in such environments to believe the BS.

Cultural appropriation is another one creeping in over there.

cookie24

So does this mean, under Irish law, that every man that had sex with a drunken woman is a rapist? And each of those women is a rape victim?

Fat Christy

cookie24 wrote: »

So does this mean, under Irish law, that every man that had sex with a drunken woman is a rapist? And each of those women is a rape victim?

It's to do with consent. If the woman was of sound mind to consent, then it was not rape, whether she had a few drinks or not. How do you establish if that is after 3 drinks/4 drinks/6 drinks is the hard part. Where is the line? I don't know.

Cool Mo D

It's absolutely 100% not true that you cannot consent to sex while drunk, either here, or in the USA. It is only rape if someone is too drunk to consent - if they are not able to say no, it is rape. When exactly that line is crossed is a very, very, very grey area.

Basically if a "reasonable person" would have known that the partner was too drunk to consent, that is rape.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2014/05/drinking_and_sexual_assault_on_campus_universities_must_define_when_sex.html

foggy_lad

Had they been out in the same place drinking? Did he slip her Finn's Mickey? Did he plan to have sex with her because he knew she was incapable of giving informed consent at the time? Women have a much lower tolerance for alcohol than most men even in college and the fact she was wasted while he was only a bit drunk would say to me that he happily took advantage of her drunk state.

As usual there is a lot we don't hear about when journalists write a story to obtain the maximum shock and awe factor.

jca

TheZohan wrote: »

A drunk person cannot give consent. Legally; a woman can not rape a man.

What defines drunk?

sbsquarepants

TheZohan wrote: »

Apparently, legally you can't give consent. Totally ridiculous, but there you go.

What is the legal definition of drunk?
Are you classed as drunk if you're over the driving limit or what?

The situation is ridiculous - if the woman is legally rendered incapable of any self control after a glass or 2 of wine, why is the man still responsible for his actions?
To be honest this girl sounds like a total cúnt!

EazyD

Judging by the fact that she was able to send text messages and confirm her intentions, would suggest she fully knew what she was doing. The double standards present in society today only enables this kind of stuff.

Timberrrrrrrr

foggy_lad wrote: »

Had they been out in the same place drinking? Did he slip her Finn's Mickey? Did he plan to have sex with her because he knew she was incapable of giving informed consent at the time? Women have a much lower tolerance for alcohol than most men even in college and the fact she was wasted while he was only a bit drunk would say to me that he happily took advantage of her drunk state.

As usual there is a lot we don't hear about when journalists write a story to obtain the maximum shock and awe factor.

She went to his room and had sex with him, she consented to have sex with him and NO WHERE does it say she was "wasted" and he wasn't. They both in fact state that they were the drunkest they have ever been.

Fat Christy

jca wrote: »

What defines drunk?

sbsquarepants wrote: »

What is the legal definition of drunk?
Are you classed as drunk if you're over the driving limit or what?

Yeaaahhhh....that's the problem.

strobe

I think it's quite sad. I'd be of the opinion that it's likely the whole bat**** insane view of sex and male/female relations that's being pushed in these colleges that led to the girl feeling so screwed up afterwards. Rather than the fairly mundane and commonplace occurance of two young people getting far too drunk and having a fumble. An environment and world view is being cultivated and fostered that is screwing up young girls attitudes to sexual relations, imprinting in their minds that women are victims and men are predators. It's all very sad and everyone is losing. Madness.

dfx-

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

This is the bit i can't understand, She didn't change her mind and an investigator hired by the college says she consented to sex. OK she was drunk and so was he (both say drunker than they have ever been) But then surely she should be held responsible as SHE went to his room and had sex with him therefore making her the instigator.

I read that line differently, that you can equally indicate your consent (as the article terms it) by saying 'I didn't give it' as well as confirming that you did.

ForstalDave

foggy_lad wrote: »

Had they been out in the same place drinking? Did he slip her Finn's Mickey? Did he plan to have sex with her because he knew she was incapable of giving informed consent at the time? Women have a much lower tolerance for alcohol than most men even in college and the fact she was wasted while he was only a bit drunk would say to me that he happily took advantage of her drunk state.

As usual there is a lot we don't hear about when journalists write a story to obtain the maximum shock and awe factor.

The article pretty much covers it all, They only met up at the end of the night, No suggestion that there was any date rape drugs or anything.
it sounds more like she was convinced she was raped by other people and went with it as it made her feel beter

Dayum

Why did you highlight "with a woman"?

Who cares if he had sex with a man?

smurgen

To be honest it would put you off having casual relationships. Too many nut cases out there who'll take you and your reputation down with them