Comprehensive driving insurance

mgbgt1978

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

Still here?? Still nothing new to contribute.

Yep. And yourself ? Still asking Merc owners who need a new clutch if their car is Manual or Auto ?
I'm just surprised you actually read a post written by somebody else.;)

fmcg_scribe

RustyNut wrote: »

Its a legal term, the question was a legal one.

You are correct that "beneficial owner" is a legal term but it does not denote legal ownership. At the point of sale of a car, the person to whom the seller has sold the car and received payment in return is the legal owner of the car - the invoice/receipt should name that person. That legal owner may ultimately become the "beneficial owner" (or keeper, if you like) but it depends on what happens after the sale - for example, if you buy the car and give it to a relative for their use, are you still the beneficial owner even though you bought the car and remain the registered owner?

You might find these links useful:
http://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-to-sign-over-a-car-title-to-someone/
http://thelawdictionary.org/beneficial-owner/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beneficial_owner

fmcg_scribe

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Yep. And yourself ? Still asking Merc owners who need a new clutch if their car is Manual or Auto ?
I'm just surprised you actually read a post written by somebody else.;)

Still nothing new...you know the rest...:D

RustyNut

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Don't bother Rusty. I've tried (on a few threads here) but "Brick Wall" springs to mind.


edit; BTW ownership changes when you, the buyer, signs the VLC.

I feel your pain.

Gosub

RustyNut wrote: »

This is exactly when you become the owner of and take responsibility for ownership.Paperwork can happen later.
For example if the OP in this case was to buy the car and get his partner to drive it home taking a chance on driving with no insurance and get pulled then the driver would be guilty of driving without insurance, the owner would also be liable to a charge of permitting a car to be used without insurance, who do you think would have to face that charge the seller or the buyer.

Right, based on this. If I go to see a car and decide to buy it, agree with the seller that the deal won't be complete until tomorrow, ostensibly to allow him to be satisfied that funds are free and clear in his account. I can then, theoretically, drive the car home as I don't own it yet, with my wife following me in our old car, on which she is a named driver.

I know it's a grey area and I wonder what the view of the Gardai would be.

mgbgt1978

If the drive home was considered a Test Drive and the Seller was happy with no money changing hands.
And the VLC signed by both Parties the following day, then yes it could very well be considered that you are not the RO until the formalities were completed.
If it was just a matter of waiting for funds to 'clear' then the situation would differ.


As for the Guards, if the seller still had the VLC (not filled in of course) then there is no reason for them to do anything. As long as you had the seller's full name and address (2nd question they would ask you....1st would be "Is this your Car ?") and permission to drive his car then you are insured.
Grey I accept, but no laws broken.

RustyNut

Gosub wrote: »

Right, based on this. If I go to see a car and decide to buy it, agree with the seller that the deal won't be complete until tomorrow, ostensibly to allow him to be satisfied that funds are free and clear in his account. I can then, theoretically, drive the car home as I don't own it yet, with my wife following me in our old car, on which she is a named driver.

I know it's a grey area and I wonder what the view of the Gardai would be.

These are the questions that make lawyers rich.

fmcg_scribe

Gosub wrote: »

Right, based on this. If I go to see a car and decide to buy it, agree with the seller that the deal won't be complete until tomorrow, ostensibly to allow him to be satisfied that funds are free and clear in his account. I can then, theoretically, drive the car home as I don't own it yet, with my wife following me in our old car, on which she is a named driver.

I know it's a grey area and I wonder what the view of the Gardai would be.

That's not how cars are bought and sold either privately or dealing with traders.

Why are you even raising this stuff?

These days, credit cards, debit cards, cash, and electronic funds transfer are all used to pay deposits on cars and to buy card outright. The days of using bank drafts and cheques to pay for cars are gone. Therefore, nobody should be waiting for any funds to clear.

If dealing with the gardai while waiting for the updated log book, the most appropriate piece of paperwork is the invoice/receipt.

fmcg_scribe

RustyNut wrote: »

These are the questions that make lawyers rich.

On this occasion, all of you are introducing shades of grey where none need exist. You buy a car. You get a receipt/invoice from the seller. You arrange insurance before you collect the car. You wait for the updated log book. If your legal title to car is questioned while you are awaiting log book, you produce the receipt/invoice. End of.

DanWall

Just to throw a spanner in the works. I was always confused by this as I thought you could only drive another car not owned by you with your own insurance, if the car being driven was also insured by someone else?

fmcg_scribe

DanWall wrote: »

Just to throw a spanner in the works. I was always confused by this as I thought you could only drive another car not owned by you with your own insurance, if the car being driven was also insured by someone else?

Your question is badly worded. What matters is whether you are insured to drive the car not whether the car is insured at all (by somebody else).

If your insurance policy says that you can drive other cars that are not owned by you and you buy another car (with invoice/receipt as proof of legal title), you can't argue to your insurer that you didn't own the car (at the time of the accident).

It's possible that some insurers do not add that rider about not owning another car but I suspect that that would be unusual. Obviously, open insurance is a different beast but that's not (?) usually available to private motorists.

Gosub

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

That's not how cars are bought and sold either privately or dealing with traders.

Why are you even raising this stuff?

These days, credit cards, debit cards, cash, and electronic funds transfer are all used to pay deposits on cars and to buy card outright. The days of using bank drafts and cheques to pay for cars are gone. Therefore, nobody should be waiting for any funds to clear.

If dealing with the gardai while waiting for the updated log book, the most appropriate piece of paperwork is the invoice/receipt.

You understand the meaning of the word ostensibly, right?

RustyNut

The question.

Gosub wrote: »

OK, so, when does ownership transfer, in law? Honest question.

The answer.

RustyNut wrote: »

When you become the beneficial owner.

The greyness...

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

You could become the "beneficial" owner as soon as you pay for the car and drive it away insured (of course). However, it's the car's log book that will confirm you as the owner.

Obviously, if the car was sold to you illegally, your legal title to the car would then be in question but that would not concern your insurer until you informed them.

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

True, you paid for the car but should be you be driving it on public roads if it's not insured? So, yes, you are the owner of the car after you've pad it but unless you are using/driving the car are you really the "beneficial" owner (if that phrase means anything in this particular discussion)?

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

Interesting scenario but is it relevant?

In my view, there are three stages to taking ownership of a car:

• Buy the car and possibly pay for it in full and get an invoice or receipt of sale from seller. This about establishing your legal title to the car. At around the same time, you'll probably organise with the seller the details required to update the car's log book. If you don't have open insurance or you can't transport car home, you'll have to arrange insurance.
• Arrange insurance and collect car from seller. If you paid only a deposit initially, you'll also settle final balance with seller and get a final invoice. This all about establishing your right to drive the car legally on public roads.
• Receive updated log book in post. This will confirm that you are now the registered owner.

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

True. "Beneficial" owner seems like a woolly, nebulous phrase. UK DVLA log books distinguish between "owners" and "keepers" of cars. Still, for this discussion here, I'm not sure that splitting hairs around the phrase "owner" is helpful or relevant.

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

You are correct that "beneficial owner" is a legal term but it does not denote legal ownership. At the point of sale of a car, the person to whom the seller has sold the car and received payment in return is the legal owner of the car - the invoice/receipt should name that person. That legal owner may ultimately become the "beneficial owner" (or keeper, if you like) but it depends on what happens after the sale - for example, if you buy the car and give it to a relative for their use, are you still the beneficial owner even though you bought the car and remain the registered owner?

You might find these links useful:
http://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-to-sign-over-a-car-title-to-someone/
http://thelawdictionary.org/beneficial-owner/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beneficial_owner

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

On this occasion, all of you are introducing shades of grey where none need exist. You buy a car. You get a receipt/invoice from the seller. You arrange insurance before you collect the car. You wait for the updated log book. If your legal title to car is questioned while you are awaiting log book, you produce the receipt/invoice. End of.

CiniO

Well case is fairly simple.
Buyer becomes beneficial owner at the moment when money and keys change hands.
He becomes registered owner at the moment logbook is signed.

There's no rocket science behind it.

I have always taken it that you are not the registered owner until the log book changes to your name (how can you be?) and that you are the registered owner until it changes out of your name.

So on buying a car I have driven it home using my 3rd party extension from a different car as I am not the registered owner and on a different occasion I have driven someone else's car around for a few days using the 3rd party extension on a car I had sold as it's still in my name and I didn't cancel the insurance. Both situations are above board imo and technically meet the terms and conditions of insurance.

RustyNut

Angelica Helpful Busboy wrote: »

I have always taken it that you are not the registered owner until the log book changes to your name (how can you be?) and that you are the registered owner until it changes out of your name.

So on buying a car I have driven it home using my 3rd party extension from a different car as I am not the registered owner and on a different occasion I have driven someone else's car around for a few days using the 3rd party extension on a car I had sold as it's still in my name and I didn't cancel the insurance. Both situations are above board imo and technically meet the terms and conditions of insurance.

You might want to rethink that. Below is a quote from an axa policy booklet that states that you are covered IF you dont own the car. Once you bought it you become the legal owner and take on responsibility for ownership. The registered owner is not the same thing and is not mentioned in the policy.In the event of a claim its the owner not the registered owner that matters.

1b Driving other cars
This cover will also apply if you are driving any other car which your certificate
of insurance covers you to drive. If you are covered to drive other cars, it will
be shown in section 5(b) of your certificate of insurance.
This cover only applies if:
¡ you do not own the car or you have not hired the car under a
hire-purchase agreement;
¡ it is shown that this cover applies under section 5(b) of your certificate
of insurance;
¡ you have the owner’s permission to drive the car; and
¡ the vehicle is being used within the ‘limits for use’ shown in your current
certificate of motor insurance.
This cover applies to damage or injury happening in Ireland and the UK only.
This extension applies only to private passenger vehicles. It does not include
vans, car-vans, jeeps with no seats in the back or vans adapted to carry
passengers.

mgbgt1978

Angelica Helpful Busboy wrote: »

I have always taken it that you are not the registered owner until the log book changes to your name (how can you be?) and that you are the registered owner until it changes out of your name.

Remember that the new VLC will be dated from the day you signed the old one....not from when it arrives in the post at Shannon.

mgbgt1978

DanWall wrote: »

Just to throw a spanner in the works. I was always confused by this as I thought you could only drive another car not owned by you with your own insurance, if the car being driven was also insured by someone else?

Some Insurers will insist on this, some won't.
Some will not allow you drive a car owned by your spouse (or your Employer), others have no such stipulations.
As an example Liberty do not require the 'other car' to be insured by anybody else, they do not require a current NCT (just that the car is 'roadworthy', which is decided by their assessor in the event of an accident), and they do not have the 'spouse/employer' restriction.

Gosub

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Remember that the new VLC will be dated from the day you signed the old one....not from when it arrives in the post at Shannon.

That's correct. When I bought my current car on the 27th of February, the old owner agreed, in fact suggested, that we make the date on the cert the 2nd of March. As the car wasn't taxed, this saved me 1 month tax. (Unethical, I know, but so is having to pay tax for the whole month of February!)

I know this left the old owner open to all sorts of dire consequences for the few days the car was in my care, but we both hit it off well and trusted each other, at least a bit.