Why do you want to pay the Water Charges

Wanderer2010

@ Sully, regarding your points. Water charges were on the cards years ago, yes, but only as a scare tactic the same way with this budget next month, little bits of information drip feeding out like "we are going to cut tax" "Dole Christmas bonus may return" etc, its a well known political tactic to gauge public reaction and adjust accordingly. When they proposed these taxes years ago, it was a shallow threat and either way was opposed from day one.

You seem to think that we should pay for something which we are entitled to already- safe clean water. And may I remind you that thousands of people in this country dont even get that, they have contaminated, dirty and undrinkable water, so why on earth should thay pay a cent? IW being a private company is a very important point. You pay taxes when you work because you signed a contract and know that after your wages, you need to contribute towards our rotten HSE system, taxes and PRSI etc. If you dont sign any contract with IW, THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO INSTALL ANYTHING ON YOUR PROPERTY. such a simple point missed.

And on that, remember a few years ago when cuts to the medical card were scrapped? That was 100% due to the power of our elderly protesters, who had something sadly very lacking in this generation- a backbone and morals to protest against something which is wrong to the core. Do you think the Government would be proposing water charges if we didnt hit recession in 2008 due to the bankers and their actions?

H3llR4iser

Sully wrote: »

Sadly, the level of debate on the subject of Irish Water has been shockingly poor and very much 'face palm' moments. It's the same nonsense each time...

I see exactly where you are coming from and agree with all of your points; When I moved to Ireland years ago, as a foreigner I was actually a bit shocked that there was no "water bill". Believe it or not, I kept asking everybody about if for the first 6-7 months and was even more shocked when people simply went "why should you pay? It always rains, there's a lot of water here!".

To be honest I expected that some sort of water metering and billing would be put in place at some point...and I expected it to be unfair like many other charges here.

To begin with, the apartment I live wasn't fitted with a meter. Irish Water says I'll be paying based on an "average", and they claim the average will be based on the number of people living in the apartment. Problem is, this "average" will necessarily be skewed depending on what kind of household they calculate it on; For example, the "per person average" of a 4 bedroom house with a garden and occupied by two adults and two children will necessarily be higher than mine, living alone in an apartment and basically out 75% of the time.

I have no problem paying what I use, I can't understand why they couldn't simply install a meter. They CAN be installed in apartments, as they exist in many places in the EU.

The second, and this is the biggest one, are the allowances: 30.000 liters (in/out) per year per household. Fine. Good idea. If that was it; Why is there an additional allowance of 38.000 liters/year per children under 18 y.o. living in the houseold? Do people under 18 need to sleep in a swimming tank with water refreshed every night? And as soon as they turn 18, do their water needs immediately disappear? Why is kids allowance calculated per person, while adult one is "household" based?

It reeks of the typical "will anybody think of the children!" attitude:

Single: 30.000 L/year;
Couple with no kids: 30.000 L/year;
Family with 2 kids: 108.000 L/year;
Family with 2 18 y.o. kids: 30.000 L/year;

See anything wrong there? Why does the couple have to pay for my allowance? Why do I, the couple and the family with grown up kids need to pay for the family with 2 underage children?

barneystinson

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

IW being a private company is a very important point. You pay taxes when you work because you signed a contract and know that after your wages, you need to contribute towards our rotten HSE system, taxes and PRSI etc. If you dont sign any contract with IW, THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO INSTALL ANYTHING ON YOUR PROPERTY. such a simple point missed.

Just because you say these things doesn't make them so!

IW is a semi-state company, not a private company. That's a fact.

And if the appropriate legislation / regulations are in place, I'm sure they do have the right to install meters - where's the legal challenge if its not legal?!

This is heading towards Freeman of the land type stuff.

Wanderer2010

barneystinson wrote: »

Just because you say these things doesn't make them so!

IW is a semi-state company, not a private company. That's a fact.

And if the appropriate legislation / regulations are in place, I'm sure they do have the right to install meters - where's the legal challenge if its not legal?!

This is heading towards Freeman of the land type stuff.

Its a private company, check out the info on their about us website.

shinzon

barneystinson wrote: »

Just because you say these things doesn't make them so!

IW is a semi-state company, not a private company. That's a fact.

And if the appropriate legislation / regulations are in place, I'm sure they do have the right to install meters - where's the legal challenge if its not legal?!

This is heading towards Freeman of the land type stuff.

As much as you think there a semi state there actually not, they are indeed a private company of that there is no doubt.

Shin

CatFromHue

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

You seem to think that we should pay for something which we are entitled to already- safe clean water. And may I remind you that thousands of people in this country dont even get that, they have contaminated, dirty and undrinkable water, so why on earth should thay pay a cent? IW being a private company is a very important point. You pay taxes when you work because you signed a contract and know that after your wages, you need to contribute towards our rotten HSE system, taxes and PRSI etc. If you dont sign any contract with IW, THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO INSTALL ANYTHING ON YOUR PROPERTY. such a simple point missed.

For every right you have a duty.

You have the right to clean water but you have a duty to help pay for it's processing and delivery.

There's nothing free, someone somewhere has to pay.

It's a terrible situation for the people with un drinkable water but hopefully IW will be able to sort the problem out, what we do know is the council hasn't been able to. I don't know the numbers exactly but I'm happy to say that the people with undrinkable water are in the vast minority in the country. You say thousands but there's 4.5 million people in Ireland.

fiachr_a

Most water in Irish homes is undrinkable, full of fluoride!

S.O

barneystinson wrote: »

Just because you say these things doesn't make them so!

IW is a semi-state company, not a private company. That's a fact.

And if the appropriate legislation / regulations are in place, I'm sure they do have the right to install meters - where's the legal challenge if its not legal?!

This is heading towards Freeman of the land type stuff.

When it says on their website in the small print.

( Irish Water. Private Company Limited by Shares,)

When people read that what other conclusion are people to come to other then Irish water is a private company.

S.O

CatFromHue wrote: »

For every right you have a duty.

You have the right to clean water but you have a duty to help pay for it's processing and delivery.

There's nothing free, someone somewhere has to pay.

It's a terrible situation for the people with un drinkable water but hopefully IW will be able to sort the problem out, what we do know is the council hasn't been able to. I don't know the numbers exactly but I'm happy to say that the people with undrinkable water are in the vast minority in the country. You say thousands but there's 4.5 million people in Ireland.

Water isn,t free at the moment, we are already paying for water through general taxation.

Sully

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Its a private company, check out the info on their about us website.

shinzon wrote: »

As much as you think there a semi state there actually not, they are indeed a private company of that there is no doubt.

Shin

S.O wrote: »

When it says on their website in the small print.

( Irish Water. Private Company Limited by Shares,)

When people read that what other conclusion are people to come to other then Irish water is a private company.

It's a legal requirement to be on the website. There are NUMEROUS private companies owned by the state without a whimper from the public.

Worth pointing out that semi-state bodies are private companies owned by the state. There not lying - it's a private company owned by the state. People are being disingenuous with the truth and playing on words. It's a subsidiary of Board Gais. So SoloCheck is correct. It's a private company. But who owns it? The state. Therefore it's publicly owned private company. Examples; ESB, RTE, Board Bia, Irish Rail (a subsidiary like Irish Bus, Dublin Bus etc).

It's that kind of **** that I hate about Irish politics. Come referendums, and the loonies are out trying to convince us that it's all doom and gloom and by voting Yes the world will end.

Sully

S.O wrote: »

Water isn,t free at the moment, we are already paying for water through general taxation.

Water has NEVER been free. Any service that is provided by the state for the public is PAID for by the tax payers. That's obvious to anybody, even the economically illiterate Sinn Fein. It's stupid to see the campaigners twist the obvious into some form of a defence so that it looks like the obvious wasn't that obvious at all and it really is an outrage. It's clever, but not everyone is stupid enough to be conned by a play of the truth.

Taxation covers the cost of running the state. This is normal. You pay for the roads several times over. You pay for foothpaths several times over. You pay for other peoples social welfare several times over. You pay for public sector wages several times over. The taxation system is a big pot of money that is divided up between all costly state services like, you guessed it, WATER! The state has to PAY to deliver the water to your house.

The difference now is that you're also being asked to pay a direct tax to bump up an area that the state cannot afford to fund purely based on indirect taxation alone. Just like Gas, Electricity, Telecommunication and so on. At least now people can't turn around and say 'Where does our tax be spent?' - the state is getting a much larger pool of money to fix our water supply and we now pay directly, with a regular bill from an existing contract but a new supplier using the same infrastructure that is being replaced (lots being done in Waterford replacing old piping), so we can no hammer home that we expect to see change and improvement in our supply without excuses.

S.O

Sully wrote: »

Water has NEVER been free. Any service that is provided by the state for the public is PAID for by the tax payers. That's obvious to anybody, even the economically illiterate Sinn Fein. It's stupid to see the campaigners twist the obvious into some form of a defence so that it looks like the obvious wasn't that obvious at all and it really is an outrage. It's clever, but not everyone is stupid enough to be conned by a play of the truth.

Taxation covers the cost of running the state. This is normal. You pay for the roads several times over. You pay for foothpaths several times over. You pay for other peoples social welfare several times over. You pay for public sector wages several times over. The taxation system is a big pot of money that is divided up between all costly state services like, you guessed it, WATER! The state has to PAY to deliver the water to your house.

The difference now is that you're also being asked to pay a direct tax to bump up an area that the state cannot afford to fund purely based on indirect taxation alone. Just like Gas, Electricity, Telecommunication and so on. At least now people can't turn around and say 'Where does our tax be spent?' - the state is getting a much larger pool of money to fix our water supply and we now pay directly, with a regular bill from an existing contract but a new supplier using the same infrastructure that is being replaced (lots being done in Waterford replacing old piping), so we can no hammer home that we expect to see change and improvement in our supply without excuses.

Except it didn,t seem obvious to the poster I was replying to, when the poster implied water is free .

There's nothing free, someone somewhere has to pay.

www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92374918&postcount=37

barneystinson

S.O wrote: »

When it says on their website in the small print.

( Irish Water. Private Company Limited by Shares,)

When people read that what other conclusion are people to come to other then Irish water is a private company.

A private company owned by whom? Bord Gais, which is a semi-state company. This isn't rocket science. :rolleyes:

shinzon

Sully let me ask you this is there any scenario anywhere in your sphere of influence that would convince you that the water tax is simply a tax to far. ?

Don't just rush and answer this question, sit down for 5-10 minutes and really think about it, just really ask yourself is there anything even some nagging doubt that this is wrong, or are so so convinced its right that there is no point in even asking the question.

While im at it let me ask this question is there a monetary value where you would say no im not paying it because its to much 300-400 1000 euro, because that's what this really come down to in the end money and ability to pay.

Shin

Wanderer2010

I also have a question for you Sully. Do you think that, had we not been in recession from 2008 onwards because of the actions of the bankers, the Government would be pressing for water charges? Do you think if we were still a successful economy, Irish Water would exist? Again, think about it and please dont give me the base "the economy needs it" reply so beloved of the naive.

hmmm

Who would you prefer pays for the treated water you use?

CatFromHue

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I also have a question for you Sully. Do you think that, had we not been in recession from 2008 onwards because of the actions of the bankers, the Government would be pressing for water charges? Do you think if we were still a successful economy, Irish Water would exist? Again, think about it and please dont give me the base "the economy needs it" reply so beloved of the naive.

Just remember in 08 the govt was running at a massive loss which had nothing to do with the bankers.

S.O

CatFromHue wrote: »

Just remember in 08 the govt was running at a massive loss which had nothing to do with the bankers.

Were it not for the bailout of banks,Irish public debt levels would now be below those of Germany ( quote from Enda Kenny )

shinzon

hmmm wrote: »

Who would you prefer pays for the treated water you use?

We already do pay for the water we use to the tune of 1.2 billion euro, why is the same mantras being trotted out again and again, there seems to be no coherent thought behind paying the water charges.

Its either some political affiliation or some variation of it has to be paid for when we already do.

There actually doesn't seem to be any answer to the question Why do you want to pay the charges, all im seeing here is why we have to pay the charges, when in actual fact we don't. Water charges were defeated in the 90's and they can be again. The Government only governs by the will of the people, they work for us we don't work for them. If we en masse as a state say no then that's the end of the matter the government cannot govern or dictate to us under those circumstances.

Shame people forget that

Shin

barneystinson

shinzon wrote: »

We already do pay for the water we use to the tune of 1.2 billion euro, why is the same mantras being trotted out again and again, there seems to be no coherent thought behind paying the water charges.

Its either some political affiliation or some variation of it has to be paid for when we already do.

There actually doesn't seem to be any answer to the question Why do you want to pay the charges, all im seeing here is why we have to pay the charges, when in actual fact we don't. Water charges were defeated in the 90's and they can be again. The Government only governs by the will of the people, they work for us we don't work for them. If we en masse as a state say no then that's the end of the matter the government cannot govern or dictate to us under those circumstances.

Shame people forget that

Shin

So we all agree it has to be paid for.

If it has to be paid for, then why shouldn't the user pay, rather than general taxation?

All the other services that require an infrastructure network have to be paid for based on use... Electricity has to be paid for by the user, phone/Internet too. Why do YOU think water to residences should be different, from those other utilities, and from water supplied to business users..??

shinzon

barneystinson wrote: »

So we all agree it has to be paid for.

If it has to be paid for, then why shouldn't the user pay, rather than general taxation?

All the other services that require an infrastructure network have to be paid for based on use... Electricity has to be paid for by the user, phone/Internet too. Why do YOU think water to residences should be different, from those other utilities, and from water supplied to business users..??

I didn't say that I said its already been paid for to the tune of 1.2 billion.

Shin

barneystinson

S.O wrote: »

Were it not for the bailout of banks,Irish public debt levels would now be below those of Germany ( quote from Enda Kenny )

What's that got to do with a budget deficit?

You're talking about the mortgage, he's talking about spending more money than you're earning before the mortgage payment even arises - big difference.

barneystinson

shinzon wrote: »

I didn't say that I said its already been paid for to the tune of 1.2 billion.

Shin

Bottom line, it's not FREE.

It's not charged for at point of delivery, but it has to be paid for, and currently that money comes out of general taxation. Since I already pay tax and I'm going to be paying for it either way, I'd rather be able to know exactly how much it's costing me, and have some ability to control its cost.

CatFromHue

S.O wrote: »

Were it not for the bailout of banks,Irish public debt levels would now be below those of Germany ( quote from Enda Kenny )

That's the debt but the govt was only taking about 40bn while spending 60bn in 08. That's why the water charges are being brought in. To make us less reliant on one off stamp duty and have a yearly settled tax income.

wellboytoo

shinzon wrote: »

We already do pay for the water we use to the tune of 1.2 billion euro, why is the same mantras being trotted out again and again, there seems to be no coherent thought behind paying the water charges.

Its either some political affiliation or some variation of it has to be paid for when we already do.

There actually doesn't seem to be any answer to the question Why do you want to pay the charges, all im seeing here is why we have to pay the charges, when in actual fact we don't. Water charges were defeated in the 90's and they can be again. The Government only governs by the will of the people, they work for us we don't work for them. If we en masse as a state say no then that's the end of the matter the government cannot govern or dictate to us under those circumstances.

Shame people forget that

Shin

So according to your logic we all pay for water already but I have a well and pump so at the moment I am being double taxed so it's unfair on me until you pay for water

shinzon

Let me put this in absolute perspective for everyone take it whatever way you want but this is the truth about Irish water the absolute 100% truth, I know the person who wrote this piece his facts and integrity are 100%

MYTHS ABOUT IRISH WATER

Looks like Gandhi was right...

"First they ignore at you,
Then they laugh at you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win!"

Just some of my thoughts on the Myths/Lies out there regarding Irish Water for anybody that’s interested.

If you are up to it I would suggest that you also read the Water Services Act 2007/2013 before making up your mind as to what you want to do. Knowledge is power. When all is said and done, it is your choice, regardless of what the Government or Media would have you believe. I hope this will help to dispel a lot fear people have due to lies, myths and half-truths being put out there by vested interest groups.

Myth 1 - Irish Water now control the supply of water in Ireland.

No, they don’t. The Act states that the Government have EXTENDED some of the functions of the Water Services Authorities (Councils) to the Water Metering Authority (Irish Water). It's important to note the word "extended". Notice it does not say the word “replaced”. So, unless you consent to enter into a contract with Irish Water, the Water Services Authority will still continue to supply you with YOUR water. Irish Water are a “metering” (billing) company .

Myth 2 – They will cut off my water if I don’t pay/Turn it down to a trickle.

This is a lie that was put out there by non-other than Mr Phil Hogan. The act PROHIBITS, either permanently or temporarily, the Water Services Authority & the Water Metering Authority from turning off/down your water in respect to a dwelling. A Dwelling being a place where people live as opposed to an office where people work (But they can do it if the premises is not a dwelling.) There are various phone calls posted on youtube where Irish Water confirm this to be a fact, and quote “we don’t know why Phil Hogan said that”[regarding turning down the pressure for non-payment].

Myth 3 – It now the law, I have to sign up with Irish Water.

No, you don’t. You are under no legal obligation to enter into a Treaty with ANY private company against your will. This is the nub of the issue. There is nothing in either the 2007 or 2013 act to COMPEL a private citizen to sign up to Irish Water. Even if there was, it with would run contrary to the Constitution, other Irish Consumer Law, and European Law, and therefore would be completely unenforceable.
Regardless of what laws the Government pass, you are still a free citizen with Constitutional Rights (to Property, Privacy, and Protest). They cannot pass ANY law that will limit, or remove these rights, except where they hold a referendum. Again, your consent is required for the scam to work.
It is not like the Property Tax that was administered by the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. Irish Water are a Private Limited company and have no authority to dip into your finances without your consent.

Myth 4 – Irish Water is not a Private Company

While the shares of Irish Water are currently held by the Irish Government, Irish Water is still a private company (Registered No: 530363). Not to mention the fact that we cannot trust that Fine Gael, or any other future Government, will not sell off these shares to other Private operators, as they have done in the past with Bord Gais, ESB, Eircom, and AerLingus.
“We promise not to sell it..” Just like Labours “We promise not to introduce Water Charges”.

While it is true that it is currently illegal to sell Irish Water, or any part of it, there is nothing stopping this Government, or any future one, from changing the law to MAKE IT LEGAL. The 2013 Water Act was signed into law on Christmas Day! What does that tell you?

Myth 5 – I have to give Irish Water my PPS number

No, you don’t. Irish Water are now a listed organisation by the Department of Social Protection. This DOES NOT mean that they automatically have access to your PPS number and other details. It simply means that if you sign up to them, YOU are GIVING THEM CONSENT to access, and otherwise use as THEY see fit, your personal, financial, medical and social (PPS) information. Scary isn’t it!
If you notify Irish Water that you are not their customer, and that you have NO intention (this is important, you must clearly state your intention) of entering into a contract, they cannot access your private information

Myth 6 – Irish Water will take any money owed from my wages, bank, income, or social welfare

No, they can’t. In the Water Acts its states that monies can be recovered as a “Simple Contract Debt”. Meaning they would have to take you to court. First, they would have to prove that you are their customer, then, that a contract exists, and that you agreed to the price, and that you are now simply refusing to pay. So, they will claim, you are in breach of the contract. If they cannot establish a VALID CONTRACT exists the case will never go as far as Court! They would have no legal standing!
So, DO NOT fill out the “Application” pack.

Myth 7 – The meter is the contract

No, it is not! When they are putting in the meter, please ensure that you have a sign in your window, or orally, or in writing inform the Installer that you are not, and have no intention of becoming, an Irish Water customer. If they install the meter anyway, send Irish Water a letter (preferably by registered post) telling them that you are NOT a customer of theirs, and that the meter, or any readings taken from it “will not be construed as a contract either explicit or implied”. If you wish, you may also advise Irish Water that the meter will be considered abandoned property, whether its on public or private land, as it is connected to your house, and that they have 21/30 days to remove the device or else you will remove it and destroy it “without prejudice or liability”.

Myth 8 – My landlord can force me to sign up

No, s/he can’t. A landlord (or Letting Agency for that matter) has NO business, or legal authority, to ask you for your PPS details and they certainly CANNOT sign you into a private contract with a third party without your consent. No more than I could sign any of you up to a Credit Card company, because, well, I said so! And so what if they have clauses in the lease agreement stating that they can? They cannot enter any condition in the lease agreement that would deprive you of your legal rights, as a citizen or a consumer.

Myth 9 – Irish Water will pay to fix problems on my property (once off)

Reports are coming in from all over Ireland to say that Irish Water are already reneging on this. People are posting online that they have to pay to get their own driveways dug up to fix large leaks because the issue is on “their property" and therefore not the responsibility of Irish Water!

People, you have the law on your side. Use it wisely!

—- I have decided not to consent to become a customer of Irish Water, now what?

Well, that’s a fantastic question. At the time of writing, no organisation has responded to this question for me. On Irish Water’s website it states that if you do not return a completed application pack you are not their customer. So for you, it’s business as usual. You will still get you water via you current supplier, the Water Services Authority (Council). There is a reason why the Government, and Irish Water, as well as other groups will not answer this question, because, IT’S ALL PART OF THE SCAM.
“Sign-up, or else”
“Or else what?”
“Nothing, your were supposed to just sign up!”

Finally, I hope you can see by now that for the Great Water Scam of 2014 to work – You have to CONSENT.
Without your consent nothing can happen, so don’t give it!

---

Shin

er1983

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

@ Sully, regarding your points. Water charges were on the cards years ago, yes, but only as a scare tactic the same way with this budget next month, little bits of information drip feeding out like "we are going to cut tax" "Dole Christmas bonus may return" etc, its a well known political tactic to gauge public reaction and adjust accordingly. When they proposed these taxes years ago, it was a shallow threat and either way was opposed from day one.

You seem to think that we should pay for something which we are entitled to already- safe clean water. And may I remind you that thousands of people in this country dont even get that, they have contaminated, dirty and undrinkable water, so why on earth should thay pay a cent? IW being a private company is a very important point. You pay taxes when you work because you signed a contract and know that after your wages, you need to contribute towards our rotten HSE system, taxes and PRSI etc. If you dont sign any contract with IW, THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO INSTALL ANYTHING ON YOUR PROPERTY. such a simple point missed.

And on that, remember a few years ago when cuts to the medical card were scrapped? That was 100% due to the power of our elderly protesters, who had something sadly very lacking in this generation- a backbone and morals to protest against something which is wrong to the core. Do you think the Government would be proposing water charges if we didnt hit recession in 2008 due to the bankers and their actions?

The meters are installed out on public footpaths not on people's property, I don't understand why people seem to think public footpaths are their property when they are not

shinzon

er1983 wrote: »

The meters are installed out on public footpaths not on people's property, I don't understand why people seem to think public footpaths are their property when they are not

Again wrong there is an area outside your property that is covered by the curtilage law

Shin

robtri

Sully wrote: »

Water has NEVER been free. Any service that is provided by the state for the public is PAID for by the tax payers. That's obvious to anybody, even the economically illiterate Sinn Fein. It's stupid to see the campaigners twist the obvious into some form of a defence so that it looks like the obvious wasn't that obvious at all and it really is an outrage. It's clever, but not everyone is stupid enough to be conned by a play of the truth.

so you agree we are already paying for water in our current taxes....

Sully wrote: »

Taxation covers the cost of running the state. This is normal. You pay for the roads several times over. You pay for foothpaths several times over. You pay for other peoples social welfare several times over. You pay for public sector wages several times over. The taxation system is a big pot of money that is divided up between all costly state services like, you guessed it, WATER! The state has to PAY to deliver the water to your house.

Correct again, we PAY for water in our taxes already...

Sully wrote: »

The difference now is that you're also being asked to pay a direct tax to bump up an area that the state cannot afford to fund purely based on indirect taxation alone. Just like Gas, Electricity, Telecommunication and so on. At least now people can't turn around and say 'Where does our tax be spent?' - the state is getting a much larger pool of money to fix our water supply and we now pay directly, with a regular bill from an existing contract but a new supplier using the same infrastructure that is being replaced (lots being done in Waterford replacing old piping), so we can no hammer home that we expect to see change and improvement in our supply without excuses.

Correct again, they are now applying a direct tax to this, WITHOUT giving a reduction in our current pay system......

This is usual political crap from a corrupt government...
They have failed to honour their election promises.
They break the rules they set up in relation to pay in relation to there close advisor's.
Amazing how close contacts of FG gets the nice lucrative contract for installing a lot of the meters..
They pull strokes to vote their friends into good positions....
and they want us to believe them that these water charges are good for us all...... HA HA HA HA HA HA

wellboytoo

shinzon wrote: »

Again wrong there is an area outside your property that is covered by the curtilage law

Shin

There is no such thing as a curtilage law as you call it. The curtilage of a dwelling is a description of the house with the associated buildings etc, not a law per se but a legal term.