Contact will never happen due to the vastness of space

ps200306

Nerro wrote: »

As someone said: always bet on a dreamer, and not on expert.
There might not be a way to use entanglement as a means of communication, and yes there are more theoretical answers explaining why you cannot use entanglement as means of sending a signal. Although I don't know how they are derived. But you cant argue that the model we have doesn't have loopholes that could be exploited.
I am no means an expert in this, and all the knowledge I get is thru papers but there is an experiment in trying to achieve this.

" there might be a way to use complementarity to send a signal by altering the behavior of entangled quanta depending on how they're measured. There have been experiments showing that an interference pattern in photons is created if and only if the entangled twins are detected with absolutely ambiguous position information. So far, these experiments all require correlations because only a subset of photons is able to be detected at a given time. However, if ALL of the photons can be detected ambiguosly, then, in theory, the entangled twins should create a visible interference pattern and, perhaps, allow for signaling."

I would never say never.

Links would be nice. The reference is to an experiment by J G Cramer. He hasn't produced any results in seven years, and he's 80 this year. Nobody seems to think it has much chance of success, but as you say, we should keep an open mind. If you're interested, there's a link at the bottom of that page to an article by Alan Boyle, a decent science journalist I've come across before, and that one contains a link to a paper which suggests that quantum mechanics may violate causality in principle, but any real world communication trying to exploit that will be defeated by noise.

Just to note -- even if such signalling turned out to be possible (and I'm fairly convinced it won't), it would still take 100,000 years to open a communications channel to the other side of the galaxy, since you have to start beaming a stream of entangled photons before you can then manipulate them for communication.

Nerro

ps200306 wrote: »

Links would be nice. The reference is to an experiment by J G Cramer. He hasn't produced any results in seven years, and he's 80 this year. Nobody seems to think it has much chance of success, but as you say, we should keep an open mind. If you're interested, there's a link at the bottom of that page to an article by Alan Boyle, a decent science journalist I've come across before, and that one contains a link to a paper which suggests that quantum mechanics may violate causality in principle, but any real world communication trying to exploit that will be defeated by noise.

Just to note -- even if such signalling turned out to be possible (and I'm fairly convinced it won't), it would still take 100,000 years to open a communications channel to the other side of the galaxy, since you have to start beaming a stream of entangled photons before you can then manipulate them for communication.

Yes i am reffering to him. Sorry but using phone is not the best way to paste links...
http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw171.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/09/john-cramers-retrocausal-experiments.html
We probably went a bit off topic with this debate as well....

Capt'n Midnight

Red Nissan wrote: »

Our planet has been identifying itself as a potential class M for billions of years. Our magnetic fields are generating strong radio signals that have been visible across the vastness of space.

Just like Jupiter


http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2004/20feb_radiostorms/

Waves crashing on a beach. Woodpeckers peck-peck pecking. Whales calling plaintively across the sea. These are the sounds of Jupiter. There are no whales or woodpeckers on Jupiter. There are no beaches. But Jupiter beams these sounds to Earth anyway. They emerge from the loudspeakers of short-wave radios during Jupiter's occasional, intense radio storms, caused by natural radio lasers near the planet's magnetic poles.

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's not just radio broadcasts, it's the entire spectrum. We're broadcasting more electromagnetic waves than we ever have. Mobile phones, WiFi, digital fta tv, satellites communications, deep space probe communication and many many more besides are all broadcast on the electromagnetic spectrum.

And thanks to white space it will soon be the entire spectrum , no peaks or troughs just a steady hash of noise.

RTE transmit on Saorsat. You can use a handheld 40cm satellite dish to pick up TV in parts of west Wales, from a satellite 42,000Km away. Five miles up the road you won't pick it up no matter what size dish you use because the frequencies are reused. The digital cliff is now that sharp.

Commercial radio links are now sized by software. You are allowed to use the power which is calculated by terrain maps and an allowance for fade. The days of blasting through are gone.

Symbol rates are now so high that dispersion will also wipe out signals over distance.

As others have pointed out ET may not be looking for radio in a universe with quasars, and moons in magnetic fields. It would be like us diverting huge resources looking for smoke signals or semaphore or jungle drums or trying to intercept pigeons.

ps200306

Paul Davies -- the chairman of SETI -- wrote a book in 2010 called "The Eerie Silence". He thinks intelligent life in the universe is quite unlikely. He also thinks that intelligent aliens, if they exist, mightn't be interested in the physical universe at all, being quantum computers.

mickmackey1

ps200306 wrote: »

intelligent aliens, if they exist, mightn't be interested in the physical universe at all, being quantum computers.

Maybe they think they are quantum computers, but are actually under the control of the quantum computers that got there before them.... like the big bang, infinity etc, there's just no answer to this.

ThunderCat

I came across this article last week. It proposes many different scenarios as to why we havent heard from other civilizations yet. Its well worth a read...

http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html

MeteoritesEire

great article-nice find

Curly Judge

ThunderCat wrote: »

I came across this article last week. It proposes many different scenarios as to why we havent heard from other civilizations yet. Its well worth a read...

http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html

Thanks for posting the link.
It's brilliant!

ThunderCat

MeteoritesEire wrote: »

great article-nice find

Glad you enjoyed it. It really makes you think. I was thinking about that article for days after reading it!!! I also found two short stories from the same site that I think everyone with an interest in space should read (if they havent done so already). They are both from a 1950s author called isaac assimov and are an essential read in my opinion. Fiction of course but perhaps as close to non fiction as any of us could predict.

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/fwalter/AST389/TEXTS/Nightfall.htm

Once again, well worth the read.

Edit. The second story may need a bit of background before reading. Its written from the perspective of a civilization otbiting a multi star system that due to the multiple suns in the sky only experience darkness every few thousand years when the suns in question line up a certain way

Capt'n Midnight

Another easy to detect signal will be gone forever.

http://www.rte.ie/about/en/press-office/press-releases/2014/0923/645685-rte-radio-1-moves-from-longwave-transmission/

24 September: RTÉ Radio 1 Moves from Longwave Transmission in new focus on FM, DAB and Digital Access.

RTÉ Radio 1 is announcing the cessation of its Longwave 252 service. The service will cease transmission on Monday 27th October 2014 as RTÉ Radio 1 focuses on FM and DAB transmission, and digital access points.

The vast majority (98%) of RTÉ Radio 1 listeners will be unaffected by the move. However, RTÉ Radio 1 will be embarking upon an awareness campaign to inform remaining Longwave listeners of the superior alternatives to LW transmission.

A single strong signal , easily detectable hundreds of miles away is being replaced by multiple interfering weaker signals.
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/static/2014/0821/638554-stay-tuned/

Capt'n Midnight

Just to hammer the point about ET only having a finite window to listen to us.


On Janurary 31st 1997 the French Navy sent this message in Morse code on 500KHz.
"Calling all. This is our last cry before our eternal silence."

Cork boy 55

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-32598767
Oz scientists make contact with microwave

_Tombstone_

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-32598767
Oz scientists make contact with microwave

"It turns out that you can generate these particular local signals by opening the door of the microwave to stop the microwave, and that produces these weird bursts that we're seeing at Parkes."

Opening it when it's running, who does that?

I'd be giving them a Bones chop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NyFC2DKWJM

grumpynerd

The universe barely exists as we learn more about it. We dont even know what life or sentience is or whether they are anything other than quirky matter.

The universe is hostile to life, our planet is mostly hostile to life, life itself isnt conducive to life if you consider how most humans have lived on this planet.

We also now have to increasingly look at cultural suicide as a natural stage of evolution. Its entirely possible advanced races upload to the cloud and live as ghosts until entropy gobbles them or they make the ethical decision that sentience is untenable and kill their biosystem out of kindness.

All this before dark matter and spacetime.

Huntergonzo

That's a very interesting article ThunderCat thanks for that. Now of course it's filled with probability and theory but we have nothing else to work off and there are no known ETs to compare ourselves to. I don't think it's all that unusual that we haven't received signals from advanced aliens (presuming they exist of course but statistically speaking it's highly likely) because there are a number of things to consider.

For example maybe we're looking in the wrong places or we haven't yet developed technology advanced enough to receive them or maybe even we have received them but we have no idea how to interpret them so we're simply unaware of the signals. Also while there is a high chance of alien life within the universe, or certainly there's no reason to believe there isn't, there's also no reason to believe there's intelligent life within close range of Earth so our signals haven't traveled near far enough yet to get a response, which in itself could take years to reach us.

Either way I'd love to the human race endeavor to find alien life, I think it's far more intriguing than any superstitious beliefs which sadly still hold so much power over humanity. If aliens ever did visit Earth and saw some of the stuff we still believe in they'd surely piss themselves laughing before turning around and never coming back.

grumpynerd

Huntergonzo wrote: »

That's a very interesting article ThunderCat thanks for that. Now of course it's filled with probability and theory but we have nothing else to work off and there are no known ETs to compare ourselves to. I don't think it's all that unusual that we haven't received signals from advanced aliens (presuming they exist of course but statistically speaking it's highly likely) because there are a number of things to consider.

For example maybe we're looking in the wrong places or we haven't yet developed technology advanced enough to receive them or maybe even we have received them but we have no idea how to interpret them so we're simply unaware of the signals. Also while there is a high chance of alien life within the universe, or certainly there's no reason to believe there isn't, there's also no reason to believe there's intelligent life within close range of Earth so our signals haven't traveled near far enough yet to get a response, which in itself could take years to reach us.

Either way I'd love to the human race endeavor to find alien life, I think it's far more intriguing than any superstitious beliefs which sadly still hold so much power over humanity. If aliens ever did visit Earth and saw some of the stuff we still believe in they'd surely piss themselves laughing before turning around and never coming back.

Have a look at my post for things that are undrweighted in the drake eqyation. Size and distance are not the main factors. Those terms skew the statistics too.

The probability of high level sentience elewhere is 1 as in we exist....though actually thats not clear either.

However the universe isnt infinite which is usually a factor in suggesting that life 'must' exist elsewhere.

Its a mistake to dismiss metaphtsical lifeforms too. Multiverses and hidden dumensions offer a much higher vhance of life than other planets in our universe.

Most high level freemasons and satanists are operating on a macgickal solution to contact.

Maybe christians too with prayer: multidimensional communication of a sort.

Huntergonzo

grumpynerd wrote: »

Have a look at my post for things that are undrweighted in the drake eqyation. Size and distance are not the main factors. Those terms skew the statistics too.

The probability of high level sentience elewhere is 1 as in we exist....though actually thats not clear either.

However the universe isnt infinite which is usually a factor in suggesting that life 'must' exist elsewhere.

Its a mistake to dismiss metaphtsical lifeforms too. Multiverses and hidden dumensions offer a much higher vhance of life than other planets in our universe.

Most high level freemasons and satanists are operating on a macgickal solution to contact.

Maybe christians too with prayer: multidimensional communication of a sort.

To be honest I think size and distance are very important, especially for us at the minute because we can't access other forms of travel. What I mean by that is we humans can't physically travel anywhere near the speed of light nor can we form worm holes which would enable us to travel vest distances in a short space of time, although both are theoretically possible.

The rest I'm not sure I'm following to be honest I'm not so great on philosophical debate. Personally I would look to other planets and moons for ET life forms because other dimensions and multiverses are even further out of our comprehension.

grumpynerd

Huntergonzo wrote: »

To be honest I think size and distance are very important, especially for us at the minute because we can't access other forms of travel. What I mean by that is we humans can't physically travel anywhere near the speed of light nor can we form worm holes which would enable us to travel vest distances in a short space of time, although both are theoretically possible.

The rest I'm not sure I'm following to be honest I'm not so great on philosophical debate. Personally I would look to other planets and moons for ET life forms because other dimensions and multiverses are even further out of our comprehension.

No worries Ill do a bullet list:

We dont know if we exist ourselves. We dont know what life is. The chances are that we are just more matter and that whatever sentience is is just what the universe does sometimes.

If self organisation is inside every speck of matter snd matter is a form of energy then there is no quest for life as the universe is itself at every point a lifeform.

Also unnecessary to physicslly senf anyone snywhere. More likely to send vomputer program at lightspeed to other stars. Cern can accellerate partivles so eventuslly sending virtual brains into space.

Dark matter doesnt obey lihhtdpeed laws so maybe possible to timetravel over distance.

Most likely other races self destruct or become computer consciousnesses.

Also possible sngels and demons are around in other dimensions. Not relugious but other planes etc.... actually highly likely.

Huntergonzo

grumpynerd wrote: »

No worries Ill do a bullet list:

We dont know if we exist ourselves. We dont know what life is. The chances are that we are just more matter and that whatever sentience is is just what the universe does sometimes.

If self organisation is inside every speck of matter snd matter is a form of energy then there is no quest for life as the universe is itself at every point a lifeform.

Also unnecessary to physicslly senf anyone snywhere. More likely to send vomputer program at lightspeed to other stars. Cern can accellerate partivles so eventuslly sending virtual brains into space.

Dark matter doesnt obey lihhtdpeed laws so maybe possible to timetravel over distance.

Most likely other races self destruct or become computer consciousnesses.

Also possible sngels and demons are around in other dimensions. Not relugious but other planes etc.... actually highly likely.

Haha, again I'm really not your man, I do get the general gist of what you're saying and I mean no offense but deep philosophical debate was never something I had any real interest in but maybe someone else here will engage you on this.

grumpynerd

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Haha, again I'm really not your man, I do get the general gist of what you're saying and I mean no offense but deep philosophical debate was never something I had any real interest in but maybe someone else here will engage you on this.

At a high level you cant get away from philosophy after all. More often philosophy and science are imtertwined. An answer cant ever be just vomputed or built out of maths due to godels theorem.

Maybe somone else will explain it better.

hefferboi

Where can I read more stuff like that article thundercat posted?

ThunderCat

hefferboi wrote: »

Where can I read more stuff like that article thundercat posted?

I think I saw it in the gonewild space subreddit of the website Reddit. Hope that makes sense. Can't fully recall, but that's a good place to visit anyway.