Working people "should" live in dormitories

Crusades · 27-09-2014 12:03pm #1

In the Irish Times today, they have a story on a man who works in St James's hospital cleaning operating theatres.

irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-cleaner-rent-is-soaring-bills-are-going-up-1.1941845

He pays €800 a month rent and €100 a month bus fare.

If he's full time on €9.50 an hour, his income is €1500 per month.

So he pays 60% of his wages on putting a roof over his head and getting to/from work.

The comments section is a mixture of "he should share a room and save himself a fortune" and/or "he'd be better off on the dole".

Surely there needs to be some sort of dividend for working people? The reality is that people who've never worked a day in their lives are valued higher than Mr McNamara by Joan Burton. This man is an important cog in St James's hospital - if he didn't do his job properly, the machine just would not work.

I can understand people who are students, doing internships or doing work experience sharing flats or sharing rooms, but you can only do that for so long. People have private lives to be getting on with. Having no control of who comes and goes into your home is no way to live. Unscrupulous landlords can make life very hard for people who live in shared accommodation and there is zero protection for people like Mr McNamara if he could no longer afford a private flat.

Mrs OBumble · 27-09-2014 12:41pm

He should be on on the council housing list: council housing is the only mechanism for providing housing assistance to low paid workers in this country. (At the moment anyway).

Personally I shared a house until I was 30 .. actually about 34, 'cos I had flatmates for the first few years after purchasing a house. Didn't have a problem with that. But there does come a time when that's not viable any more, 'cos most of the people that want to house-share after about 35 have some life-issues which make them hard to live with.

Also - if it's not in his first job - he should be looking to obtain a better one. Entry level jobs should be just that, done by people entering the workforce, not a lifelong occupation.

Saipanne · 27-09-2014 12:42pm

He should live in shared accommodation.

Peter File · 27-09-2014 12:44pm

He is paying cash fares for buses which is not sensible considering he takes the bus to work either get an anniual ticket or a leap card. There are probably lots of other ways he can save money.

indigo twist · 27-09-2014 12:52pm

It is absolutely ridiculous that he's paying for accommodation beyond his means.

He should get a better-paid job, or move to shared accommodation. This does not have to mean a dormitory. I know plenty of professionals in their twenties and thirties who happily live in houseshares.

Yes, his job is essential - but there are plenty others out there willing to do that same job for the same wage, and who would be willing to live within their means while doing so. While it's a vital service, it's not a skilled profession, and he would be easily replaceable - hence the relatively low wage.

I'm on a lot more money than that myself, and there is no way in hell I could afford to pay €800 a month in rent. So I don't, I pay €550. It means I've had to compromise with regards to house size and area, even to afford that, but it's just crazy to sign up to a rental contract that you can't afford on your salary, then bitch about it.

sheesh · 27-09-2014 12:56pm

Has anyone asked the person in question.

He could live in shared accommodation but maybe he does not want to. Maybe he is happy to pay the extra money for a single flat and not share with other people. Also I cannot tell if the op is making assumptions about how much this person is making. If that guy is permanent in a hospital he is on to a good job.

Crusades · 27-09-2014 1:12pm

Peter File wrote: »

He is paying cash fares for buses which is not sensible considering he takes the bus to work either get an anniual ticket or a leap card. There are probably lots of other ways he can save money.

How would you suggest he save money on the most basic human needs (shelter, warmth, security).

FYI - The article says he pays €100 per month on the bus. This is a lot lower than the cash fare of €3.05 cited in the article.

Saipanne wrote: »

He should live in shared accommodation.

I don't believe working people "should" be denied basic privacy by being forced (due to policy that they have no control over) to live alongside strangers.

If you really believe this man who contributes to society should have diminished privacy, then why do you support providing council housing to people who contribute little if anything?

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

He should be on on the council housing list: council housing is the only mechanism for providing housing assistance to low paid workers in this country. (At the moment anyway).

Personally I shared a house until I was 30 .. actually about 34, 'cos I had flatmates for the first few years after purchasing a house. Didn't have a problem with that. But there does come a time when that's not viable any more, 'cos most of the people that want to house-share after about 35 have some life-issues which make them hard to live with.

Also - if it's not in his first job - he should be looking to obtain a better one. Entry level jobs should be just that, done by people entering the workforce, not a lifelong occupation.

People used to think people still house sharing past 25 was a bit strange. Then it was 30. Now it's 35? 40 year-olds house sharing next? (I have no doubt that there are countless 40 year-olds who've ended up house sharing).

Saipanne · 27-09-2014 1:28pm

Crusades wrote: »

I don't believe working people "should" be denied basic privacy by being forced (due to policy that they have no control over) to live alongside strangers.

If you really believe this man who contributes to society should have diminished privacy, then why do you support providing council housing to people who contribute little if anything?

I make a lot more than this guy, and I pay 300 less in rent than him to share with people. I do this to save money. For the same reason, I use a leap card and don't pay cash for public transportation. This guy seems to lack common sense and deserves little sympathy. His current situation is of his own creation.

Lol to the last paragraph.

Crusades · 27-09-2014 1:36pm

Saipanne wrote: »

I make a lot more than this guy, and I pay 300 less in rent than him to share with people. I do this to save money. For the same reason, I use a leap card and don't pay cash for public transportation. This guy seems to lack common sense and deserves little sympathy. His current situation is of his own creation.

From the article it's clear that he's not paying cash fares.

Do you live in Dublin?

What stage of life are you at? Age/years' experience?

From the tone of your post, it appears that only professional people on high incomes "deserve" a basic standard of living.

shruikan2553 · 27-09-2014 1:39pm

Want to live on your own? Pay more.
Want to save money? Live with others.

Maybe look into getting a job outside of Dublin. Might not be able to get an offer elsewhere but should at least try if rent is such an issue.

Saipanne · 27-09-2014 1:51pm

Crusades wrote: »

From the article it's clear that he's not paying cash fares.

Do you live in Dublin?

What stage of life are you at? Age/years' experience?

From the tone of your article, it appears that only professional people "deserve" a decent standard of living.

Yes, I do. I'm not giving you my personal details. No, you, like others in this thread are reading posts in a state of hysteria. I'm saying this guy's standard of living would greatly improved if he moved to a house share. But no. He prefers to live an unaffordable lifestyle. It's his choice. He deserves no sympathy.

Crusades · 27-09-2014 1:52pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Want to live on your own? Pay more.
Want to save money? Live with others.

Maybe look into getting a job outside of Dublin. Might not be able to get an offer elsewhere but should at least try if rent is such an issue.

So someone else "should" do his job then?

It costs about a grand a month for one bed flats in Dublin at the lower end of the market.

Someone on €52k a year would be spending 33% of their takehome for a €1k per month flat.

So the privilege of renting a private rented flat (at the bottom end of the market) is the preserve of those on salaries of €50k+?

Saipanne · 27-09-2014 1:55pm

So the privledge of owning a Pagani Zonda is for those with an annual income of 10m a year?

Oh, what a world...

shruikan2553 · 27-09-2014 1:55pm

Crusades wrote: »

So someone else "should" do his job then?

It costs about a grand a month for one bed flats in Dublin at the lower end of the market.

Someone on €52k a year would be spending 33% of their takehome for a €1k per month flat.

So the privilege of living in a private flat is the preserve of those on salaries of €50k+?

You mean that the privilege of owning or doing something is the preserve of those on salaries which can afford it? Yeah. Its kind of how everything works.

Crusades · 27-09-2014 1:56pm

Saipanne wrote: »

He deserves no sympathy.

I don't believe he's looking for your sympathy.

All he's looking for is a decent standard of living for an honest week's work.

You sneering at him saying he should "work harder" or live with strangers isn't addressing the underlying issues facing those who want to work and contribute to society.

Saipanne · 27-09-2014 1:58pm

Crusades wrote: »

I don't believe he's looking for your sympathy.

All he's looking for is a decent standard of living for an honest week's work.

You sneering at him saying he should "work harder" or live with strangers isn't addressing the underlying issues facing those who want to work and contribute to society.

I work and contribute to society. But I would rather save 500 per month in rent and share. This guy would prefer not to save his earnings.

Shame for him. But it's his choice.

Crusades · 27-09-2014 1:59pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

You mean that the privilege of owning or doing something is the preserve of those on salaries which can afford it? Yeah. Its kind of how everything works.

So you're happy with the way "things work"?

Workers who do an honest day's work are forced to compete with RAS recipients and workers like the man in this article wait at bus stops at 7:30 on November mornings while many of his neighbours roll out of bed at 11:00 wondering what they'll do that day.

Saipanne wrote: »

I work and contribute to society. But I would rather save 500 per month in rent and share. This guy would prefer not to save his earnings.

Shame for him. But it's his choice.

Why are you so confident that you won't still be house sharing in 10 years' time?

Last year, average Dublin house prices went up by a lot more than you claim you are saving. Better work harder.

Saipanne · 27-09-2014 2:02pm

Crusades wrote: »

Why are you so confident that you won't still be house sharing in 10 years' time?

Last year, average Dublin house prices went up by a lot more than you are saving. Better work harder.

I literally have no idea what you are saying here. Especially that opening line. Bizarre.

shruikan2553 · 27-09-2014 2:02pm

Crusades wrote: »

So you're happy with the way "things work"?

Workers who do an honest day's work are forced to compete with RAS recipients and workers like the man in this article wait at bus stops at 7:30 on November mornings while many of his neighbours roll out of bed at 11:00 wondering what they'll do that day.

I would gladly put RAS recipients into cheaper parts of the country too. The thread was about him paying more to rent on his own, not he works and others don't.

Crusades · 27-09-2014 2:09pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I would gladly put RAS recipients into cheaper parts of the country too. The thread was about him paying more to rent on his own, not he works and others don't.

So RAS has no effect?

RAS is one of many factors affecting the ineffective work-reward system we have in this country.

Saipanne wrote: »

I literally have no idea what you are saying here. Especially that opening line. Bizarre.

It was very clear what I meant.

At what age do you plan on having your own place?

Saipanne · 27-09-2014 2:11pm

Crusades wrote: »

It was very clear what I meant.

At what age do you plan on having your own place?

You seem to know me better than I. What do you think?

Crusades · 27-09-2014 2:15pm

Saipanne wrote: »

You seem to know me better than I. What do you think?

I think people are living in shared accommodation for longer and longer (most would consider themselves a failure if you told them how they'd be living at 35 when they were leaving school). More and more multiple occupancy tenants are ending up stuck and will never progress. They will eventually become the state's problem.

Just trying to get a feel for your expectations really. If you don't want to be sharing for the foreseeable future, you need to be aware of market realities.

shruikan2553 · 27-09-2014 2:17pm

Crusades wrote: »

So RAS has no effect?

RAS is one of many factors affecting the ineffective work-reward system we have in this country.

It probably does have some affect but unless this man is in some position of power to change it there's not much good complaining about it will do. He has 3 options as I mentioned above. He has to choose better place to live vs saving.

Saipanne · 27-09-2014 2:17pm

Crusades wrote: »

No idea. Just trying to get a feel for your expectations. If you don't want to be sharing for the foreseeable future, you need to be aware of market realities.

I will always live within my means. Not make stupid decisions like paying way more rent than I can afford, then go crying about it in a national newspaper.

Crusades · 27-09-2014 2:19pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

It probably does have some affect but unless this man is in some position of power to change it there's not much good complaining about it will do. He has 3 options as I mentioned above. He has to choose better place to live vs saving.

So someone else "should" do his job then? Pass his problems on to someone else to deal with? A very Irish solution.

What will we (as a society) do about the ineffective work-reward system for the next guy? This is what I'm trying to get at.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I would gladly put RAS recipients into cheaper parts of the country too.

Do you think Joan Burton is going to do that?

She's been talking about a €250m Xmas bonus recently.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

He should be on on the council housing list

Never ceases to amaze me how people can say (with a straight face - nothing is wrong) that workers with full time jobs should be provided with State housing.

I doubt Mr McNamara wants public housing - he clearly wants to be his own man. Do his own thing, have his own private life. Be independent, not dependent on "the State".

gctest50 · 27-09-2014 2:53pm

Crusades wrote: »

...........This man is an important cog in St James's hospital -

a very important cog

Crusades wrote: »

if he didn't do his job properly

Crusades wrote: »

the machine just would not work.

the machine would just send an email to the cleaning contracting company :

"send us another cog - this ones not working well"

meeeeh · 27-09-2014 2:59pm

Crusades wrote: »

Never ceases to amaze me how people can say (with a straight face - nothing is wrong) that workers with full time jobs should be provided with State housing.

I doubt Mr McNamara wants public housing - he clearly wants to be his own man. Do his own thing, have his own private life. Be independent, not dependent on "the State".

Then he should find a better paying job. Minimum wage is supposed to be for those starting in employment. If you are still on minimum wage 10 years later you are doing something wrong. One of the articles in the same series also states that even adjusted for cost Irish minimum wage is one of the highest in Eu. IMO increasing minimum wage would just put up the cost of living, possibly reduce the workforce and push the price of rental accommodation up. There is no denying that there is crisis in rental market in cities but throwing more money at people indiscriminately will not solve that. Better regional development and some sort of a sane housing policy is needed.

Crusades · 27-09-2014 3:04pm

lol.

People don't seem to mind when cleaners and labourers are outsourced.

Many professionals (such as pharmacists and nurses) now find themselves increasingly working for outsourcing companies. Where I work HR and Finance administration is also being outsourced. Junior positions are gone - you're expected to do Jobbridge. If you can't afford to live in Dublin for 9 months - tough, ask your parents to support you. There's a queue of eager and fresh workers with no assets and no income desparate to get on the career ladder.

Employers love zero hour contracting companies:
- hardly any paperwork
- no obligations to the worker (permanency, pensions, professional development)
- HR headaches are outsourced too
- cheaper

meeeeh wrote: »

Then he should find a better paying job. Minimum wage is supposed to be for those starting in employment. If you are still on minimum wage 10 years later you are doing something wrong. One of the articles in the same series also states that even adjusted for cost Irish minimum wage is one of the highest in Eu. IMO increasing minimum wage would just put up the cost of living, possibly reduce the workforce and push the price of rental accommodation up. There is no denying that there is crisis in rental market in cities but throwing more money at people indiscriminately will not solve that. Better regional development and some sort of a sane housing policy is needed.

Again, this is not helpful. As I said before, Mr McNamara moving on to another job is passing the problem to someone else. It is not solving the problem

Also, Please don't try an attribute things I didn't say (increasing the minimum wage) to me. If Walmart (who have one of the largest workforces on the planet) increased the wage of their employees by $2 an hour, it would cost them over $9bn - their profits might be wiped out and they could risk going out of business - 2.2 million people would be out of a job.

Saipanne wrote: »

So the privledge of owning a Pagani Zonda is for those with an annual income of 10m a year?

Oh, what a world...

Where would that fit on Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

meeeeh · 27-09-2014 3:29pm

Crusades wrote: »

Again, this is not helpful. As I said before, Mr McNamara moving on to another job is passing the problem to someone else. It is not solving the problem

Also, Please don't try an attribute things I didn't say (increasing the minimum wage) to me.

Well what are you suggesting then?

Crusades · 27-09-2014 3:53pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Well what are you suggesting then?

Is providing workers with decent living conditions for an honest week's work too much to ask?

All you hear is politicians talking about the price of houses and kick-starting the property market once again. It's a very limited debate. My opinion is that we, as a society, need to be having a wider debate about how society is structured and where we are going as a nation.

We're supposed to be doing all this (a big national debate) for 2016, but the kind of stuff I'm seeing, reading and hearing about doesn't give much hope. A big part of Michael Higgins' presidential manifesto was having a "nationwide ethical initiative" and promoting the arts and culture in wider society; but to be honest, it's been pretty disappointing sofar.

MouseTail · 27-09-2014 4:18pm

Other than sitting round having a debate, what is your policy solution to ensure that all workers, including those on minimum wage can live alone in centres of high housing demand?

Working people "should" live in dormitories

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