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Working people "should" live in dormitories
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His monthly take home after transport + rent is €600.
People on the basic dole rate have more income (€814.67 for 0 hours work). People on the dole get most/all of their rent paid for. Many live in council houses.
Also, please stop pretending the man in question is "living in the capital city of a country". He isn't. He commutes in and out every day. You will get nowhere in Dublin city on the open market for €800 per month.
This whole "capital city therefore expensive" nonsense is tired. Berlin is cheap. Dublin is smaller than Manchester. Meaningless.Right and to prove your point you picked somebody from a country with nice big deficit, I think they are still in recession and have about 20% unemployment and a lot lower wages. And you wonder how that accommodation there is so much cheaper? Ask people who live there how many can afford their own place.
Oh For ****'s sake. This country has one year of growth and we are swining around again. We have the greatest economic collapse in history. A debt to GDP of 150%. The next time the inevitable bust comes I hope that there is no bailout, no low interest rates, and the costs are borne by the bankers and rentiers. Like my Croatian friend I am off.0 -
Frank Lee Midere wrote: »This whole "capital city therefore expensive" nonsense is tired. Berlin is cheap.
Berlin is broke. Check rents in Munich. Dublin is booming, so is Munich. Berlin is not.
I think there are some valid arguments to be made about the cost of housing in Dublin, lack of social housing and also unemployment benefits that can make it unattractive to work but not with nonsense as above.0 -
Minimum wage in Croatia is about 400 of Euro per month. Stop digging.Frank Lee Midere wrote: »Oh For ****'s sake. This country has one year of growth and we are swining around again. We have the greatest economic collapse in history. A debt to GDP of 150%. The next time the inevitable bust comes I hope that there is no bailout, no low interest rates, and the costs are borne by the bankers and rentiers. Like my Croatian friend I am off.0 -
I live in a very nice area of Dublin in a large modern apartment. All while building up a nice nest egg. Yeah. A real fool.
Try and work out if your nest egg would be bigger if rents were cheaper.
And if the housing market were cheaper would the nest egg be more useful.
The point here isn't this one guy but general house prices. Irish housing should have stayed low for generations. It was manipulated to hit the present absurd levels. You are paying more than you should. Rather than get annoyed by that you want to whine about some other guy who has the audacity to want to live well on an average income. Not only is this not possible for him he is paying taxes to make sure it isn't. All Irish taxpayers are paying about 30% of their tax or 10% of their income - more for high earners - to pay for the mistakes of developers, bankers, non mortgage paying landlords and the shyster classes who are engineering a new collapse.
And when interest rates go up as they inevitably will we will be expected to fork out more.Minimum wage in Croatia is about 400 of Euro per month. Stop digging.
I don't think you even understand the argument. The guy is leaving a "rich" country to live better in a poor one. On high end Croatian wages he can live better than on high Irish wages in Dublin. This is exactly one year after the biggest housing collapse in works history. And it is specifically housing.0 -
Berlin is broke. Check rents in Munich. Dublin is booming, so is Munich. Berlin is not.
I think there are some valid arguments to be made about the cost of housing in Dublin, lack of social housing and also unemployment benefits that can make it unattractive to work but not with nonsense as above.
Comparing Dublin to Munich is ridiculous. Economically, culturally, technologically, they are miles ahead of us. The Irish really know how to make themselves look like idiots comparing grey Dublin to shiny Munich. Dublin is dwarfed by Munich on so many levels.0 -
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Berlin is broke. Check rents in Munich. Dublin is booming, so is Munich. Berlin is not.
I think there are some valid arguments to be made about the cost of housing in Dublin, lack of social housing and also unemployment benefits that can make it unattractive to work but not with nonsense as above.
Dublin is booming. Jesus. One year of growth after the biggest economic collapse in its history and the country thinks that 30% rent increases and 30% house price increases are justified. Unlike the capital of the biggest economic power house in Europe which didn't have that bust and had to bail us out.
Could it be that Germany is actually run better? That it doesn't have boom and bust cycles?0 -
Frank Lee Midere wrote: »Dublin is booming. Jesus. One year of growth after the biggest economic collapse in its history and the country thinks that 30% rent increases and 30% house price increases are justified. Unlike the capital of the biggest economic power house in Europe which didn't have that bust and had to bail us out.
Could it be that Germany is actually run better? That it doesn't have boom and bust cycles?
"Dublin is booming" because the property market has got going again.
Ireland is an aircraft carrier for US mulitnationals.
About 40 companies could take off to anywhere in the world if factors (that Ireland has zero control over) were favourable. About 2.5% of the workforce work for these 40 companies and that 2.5% account for about 60% to 70% of all Irish exports.
Without these 40 companies, Ireland would look like any other regional city of the UK - e.g. Leeds.
You can see why there's such a huge drive to try to synthesize a home-grown entrepreneurial culture among young people. We need indigenous exporting companies and we need them fast.0 -
I assume from your posts that you are also still traveling around on public transport.
Was it Margaret Thatcher that described 30 somethings using public transport as failures?
One of the most liberating things I've ever done was sell my car and start commuting by public transport. It relieved a whole pile of stress that I had not even been conscious of. You may think that it was escape from traffic jams that relieved the stress but my commute was pretty much free flowing at the time, two sets of traffic lights and a half dozen roundabouts on a ~10 mile journey, no real delays, my commute went from 15 minutes by car to about 50 minutes by public transport.
We've all trained ourselves to ignore how stressful driving really is, but more than that, bounding your days with train and bus timetables is a great way of being more effective during the day, have to get this done and get home, and excusing yourself from pointless late evenings, sorry can't do that till tomorrow, got a train to catch. That relieved a lot of stress for me, more than this however, with nearly as much time wasted between bus and train as spent on bus and train combined, it was the time wasted between modes that that became a bit of daily retreat, a time truly to myself, no expectations from anybody else that I had to meet.
I've had to succumb to commuting by car again to balance school/childcare and work schedule. Doing the school run has its own rewards but I do miss the time out.0 -
Multiple occupancy dwelling.
Sorry, it's a UK term.
Popular with divorced men, washed up singletons and people sent there by housing officers.
You're some tulip.
There is a world of difference between a boarding house (ie place where there are strangers wandering around, and where you don't have any say over who is in the next room), and the average house-share in Ireland.
In fact the only places I know of in Ireland like the ones you describe are the direct-provision centres where entire asylum seeker families get to live in one hotel room or mobile home unit.
In most house shares, the occupants choose each other before they move in, or get to interview and have input into choosing new people if someone moves out.
In most normal house shares, you absolutely can invite your family (granny right thru to children) over. If you communicate this to your housemates beforehand, they either keep out of the way - or help you to serve the tea and scones!
Christmas dinner - maybe takes some negotiation re who needs the kitchen / living room when. But usually it's the singletons ("washed up" or otherwise!) who get invited to the home of a relative with kids, 'cos it's easier for them to stay at home than take the kids out for the day. In 14 years of house-sharing, I think I probably did all the possible options at least once, and never had a problem with the housemates.
You talked about "family relations" - I'm guessing you mean sex. Well yes, living in a houseshare does mean that this is confined to your bedroom - having it off on the kitchen table in a shared house would be regarded as pretty uncivlised. But most people I know use the bedroom most of the time anyways, house-sharing or not.0 -
"Dublin is booming" because the property market has got going again.
Dublin is booming in the sense that unemployment is lower and wages are higher than for the rest of the region. It doesn't matter how sustainable or stable it is or whatever. What it matters is that is the most attractive place in the region to move into. The same as Munich in comparison to Berlin . Hence is Berlin completely useless comparison in thermal of house prices and rents.
But then again l am arguing with someone who is claiming it is easier to survive on 400 euros per month than on 400 per week and is ignoring all statistical data because he knows someone who went back to Croatia. I'm finished posting but I might check in every so often to see what else new can I learn about countries in the region I come from.0 -
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Dublin is booming in the sense that unemployment is lower and wages are higher than for the rest of the region. It doesn't matter how sustainable or stable it is or whatever. What it matters is that is the most attractive place in the region to move into. The same as Munich in comparison to Berlin .
But then again l am arguing with someone who is claiming it is easier to survive on 400 euros per month than on 400 per week and is ignoring all statistical data because he knows someone who went back to Croatia. I'm finished posting but I might check in every so often to see what else new can I learn about countries in the region I come from.
Croatia? You are confusing me with another poster.
You can disagree with me without having to be abusive.Mrs OBumble wrote: »You're some tulip.
Your meals are cooked for you in direct provision centres.Mrs OBumble wrote: »There is a world of difference between a boarding house (ie place where there are strangers wandering around, and where you don't have any say over who is in the next room), and the average house-share in Ireland.Mrs OBumble wrote: »In fact the only places I know of in Ireland like the ones you describe are the direct-provision centres where entire asylum seeker families get to live in one hotel room or mobile home unit.
In most house shares, the occupants choose each other before they move in, or get to interview and have input into choosing new people if someone moves out.
In most normal house shares, you absolutely can invite your family (granny right thru to children) over. If you communicate this to your housemates beforehand, they either keep out of the way - or help you to serve the tea and scones!
Christmas dinner - maybe takes some negotiation re who needs the kitchen / living room when. But usually it's the singletons ("washed up" or otherwise!) who get invited to the home of a relative with kids, 'cos it's easier for them to stay at home than take the kids out for the day. In 14 years of house-sharing, I think I probably did all the possible options at least once, and never had a problem with the housemates.
You talked about "family relations" - I'm guessing you mean sex. Well yes, living in a houseshare does mean that this is confined to your bedroom - having it off on the kitchen table in a shared house would be regarded as pretty uncivlised. But most people I know use the bedroom most of the time anyways, house-sharing or not.
I never mentioned sex. I'm talking about intimate moments within the family - playing with your nieces/nephews. Family visiting for the afternoon. That kind of thing. It's unnatural to have to explain who the stranger walking around the kitchen with the beard who stinks of smoke is. Your visitors probably don't want to be introduced to your loser house mates.
Anyway, all this sounds like a great way for a grown up adult to live.
How do I sign up?0 -
Croatia? You are confusing me with another poster.
No the first part of the post was responding to your intentional misrepresentation of my use of therm booming. The second part was giving hint to the other genius to stop the nonsense about how much better is the situation in Croatia.0 -
No the first part of the post was responding to your intentional misrepresentation of my use of therm booming. The second part was giving hint to the other genius to stop the nonsense about how much better is the situation in Croatia.
Stop trying to say I brought Croatia into this discussion.
If you want to talk about the economy of Croata, follow the mod's instructions a couple of posts up.
I ask that you withdraw your claim that you are "arguing with someone who is claiming it is easier to survive on 400 euros per month than on 400 per week and is ignoring all statistical data because he knows someone who went back to Croatia.". I made no such argument. Nor do I don't know any Croatians for that matter.0 -
So Dublin as a city should only accommodate family's who's main income earner is a software engineer with 10 years experience ? Hmmm. I'm hope to God people from boards.ie never obtain a position of authority or responsibility in this country.
mid 30s with master's degree + 10 years' experience = 1 bed rented flat in Swords + 3 hours on the bus each day. Win!
Dormitories for unskilled workers.
Houses in the city centre for those who don't work.0 -
shruikan2553 wrote: »It is a low paid job that requires little to no qualifications as far as I know. You can hardly expect someone who is just after their leaving cert working in aldi to be able to afford to live beside the software engineer with 10 years experience and a masters.
His "problems" are that he wants a lifestyle he cant afford. It is something everyone faces. He has choices but he decided to take the most expensive. Living in the capital city of a country is always expensive. I would like to avoid living in Dublin for the exact same reason. Affording it is one thing but I want to be able to save, hence living in Galway, Limerick or Cork.
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So Dublin as a city should only accommodate familys who's main income earner is a software engineer with 10 years experience ? And everyone else should stay single and live in a student/young adult house share set up for the rest of their lives. Hmmm. I'm hope to God people from boards.ie never obtain a position of authority or responsibility in this country.0 -
The more your population pays for rent, the less money they have to consume and drive the economy.0
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The more your population pays for rent, the less money they have to consume and drive the economy.
More rich property owners means a much greater "trickle down" economy.
, where "trickle down"=
- Mercedes Benz imported from Germany
- iPhones imported from America
- Italian hand bags
- holidays to the Bahamas0 -
In the Irish Times today, they have a story on a man who works in St James's hospital cleaning operating theatres.
irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-cleaner-rent-is-soaring-bills-are-going-up-1.1941845
He pays €800 a month rent and €100 a month bus fare.
If he's full time on €9.50 an hour, his income is €1500 per month.
So he pays 60% of his wages on putting a roof over his head and getting to/from work.
The comments section is a mixture of "he should share a room and save himself a fortune" and/or "he'd be better off on the dole".
Surely there needs to be some sort of dividend for working people? The reality is that people who've never worked a day in their lives are valued higher than Mr McNamara by Joan Burton. This man is an important cog in St James's hospital - if he didn't do his job properly, the machine just would not work.
I can understand people who are students, doing internships or doing work experience sharing flats or sharing rooms, but you can only do that for so long. People have private lives to be getting on with. Having no control of who comes and goes into your home is no way to live. Unscrupulous landlords can make life very hard for people who live in shared accommodation and there is zero protection for people like Mr McNamara if he could no longer afford a private flat.
tbh I thought that the pay rates for even the non-skilled/lesser-skilled jobs in hospitals ie. porter or auxiliary-type jobs paid better than that. €9.50 isn't even €1 above the minimum hourly rate.
But that was probably the case during the boom years, I forgot that pay rates have massively contracted since then.0 -
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ZeroThreat wrote: »tbh I thought that the pay rates for even the non-skilled/lesser-skilled jobs in hospitals ie. porter or auxiliary-type jobs paid better than that. €9.50 isn't even €1 above the minimum hourly rate.
But that was probably the case during the boom years, I forgot that pay rates have massively contracted since then.
CO in the civil service has a gross pay of 21k (very interesting thread on it over in the Work and Jobs forum)- Net of 18k and a weekly net pay (before any deductions) of 349. After 15 years service this will have increased to the max of their salary scale to 455 net a week.
COs account for just under 70% of the civil service.
These are the salaries that the vast majority of civil servants are on- despite the wonderful stories you read in the media.
Teachers start out on similar scales- the Garda scale isn't massively different either.
For every manager- you may have 8-10 people on the lowest salaries- and overall- you'll have almost 3/4 of all on the lowest salary scales.
These are the salaries that people are trying to live on.
Even the aforementioned software engineer will want to have a teacher for his children, his property protected by the Gardai, a fireman on call- if he has an emergency, an assumption that an operating theater is clean if he needs surgery etc etc etc0 -
So someone else "should" do his job then?
It costs about a grand a month for one bed flats in Dublin at the lower end of the market.
Someone on €52k a year would be spending 33% of their takehome for a €1k per month flat.
So the privilege of renting a private rented flat (at the bottom end of the market) is the preserve of those on salaries of €50k+?
given the current market and demand right or wrong the answer is yes.0 -
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given the current market and demand right or wrong the answer is yes.
The answer is actually no.
The government have repeatedly stated that they do not see any necessary issue with allowing Dublin prices to rise in the manner in which they are doing.
However.......
IBEC, the DCC and other bodies- have approached the government- to advise that the living standards of employees are dropping significantly- as a much higher proportion of their income has to go towards funding accommodation- and even call-centre type jobs (of which we still have tens of thousands)- are increasingly finding it difficult to get staff to come to Ireland- as between accommodation costs and taxation- there is no incentive to work here.
So- the government's policy is in tatters- and the multinationals are getting increasingly restless- as they can't pay staff sufficient to work here. We were sold to the multinationals as a low cost, well educated workforce- this is patently untrue anymore.
Something has to give.
Suggesting the vast majority of the workforce- both public and private sector- live in dormitories- is laughable......... Perhaps someone starting out might not mind short-term (as evidenced by a few HP staff members over in the work and jobs forum)- but even they expect it to only be for a few weeks- until they find an apartment they like to rent..........
People have expectations- realistic or otherwise- and high up on that list of expectations- is that they will be able to live in their accommodation, whatever and where-ever that may be- its seen as part of the fruits of their labour.0 -
Sounds like the OP has the solution to people being able to afford to rent an apartment by themselves instead of house sharing in the highest demand area in the country.
From what I can gather it goes like this.
- anyone on social welfare is to be moved to Leitrim and housed there.
- Their houses and apartments in Dublin are to be taken from them and given to people on low wages.
- Anyone on a higher wage that would like to rent or buy one of those properties for a higher amount than those others can afford can piss off. They are not getting them.
- People with higher incomes must rent the same type of place elsewhere but pay much more money for them.
Yep, i can see it happening all-right.0 -
The_Conductor wrote: »The answer is actually no.
The government have repeatedly stated that they do not see any necessary issue with allowing Dublin prices to rise in the manner in which they are doing.
Absolutely untrue. In fact tackling the crisis in named as a priority for the latter term of the Govt.0 -
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Absolutely untrue. In fact tackling the crisis in named as a priority for the latter term of the Govt.
Priority?
Don't make me laugh........
Jan O'Sullivan has set up 'a task force' to report to her on the matter........
The reason I'm so cynical- is because I've been there, done that- and know how the system works.
Its getting booted down the road.
It will be 'someone else's problem' (an SEP)
After the election- even if the incumbents get back in, they 'inherited the problem' and can't be expected to solve it overnight......
IBEC- the Chambers of Commerce and the Multinationals- have all approached the government after Michael Noonan's and Simon Harris' statements on the matter (its been in the media- its not been done behind closed doors).
There is a perception in industry- particularly the multinational sector- that Ireland has become too expensive a country in which to conduct business- and it is impossible to remunerate employees in an appropriate manner.
Fine Gael have responded with platitudes about tackling our marginal rate of tax- and then commenced an all-mighty scrap with Labour over budgetary policy.
That is where we are at.0 -
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Have a read of some of Michael Noonan's speeches- your jaw will drop.........0 -
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A man expects to be able to rent a very basic flat for a honest week's work.
Who does he think he is? He's a jumped up snob who should work harder.
Seriously, get real. This thread is a joke. He's doing an unskilled job, he chooses to rent a private flat. I wouldn't dream of renting a place privately if my income was on his level, and I'm not in Dublin.
People in McDonalds work an 'honest weeks work', should they be able to afford a private one bedroom apartment in Dublin as well?
Ridiculous.0 -
The_Conductor wrote: »Priority?
Don't make me laugh........
Jan O'Sullivan has set up 'a task force' to report to her on the matter........
The reason I'm so cynical- is because I've been there, done that- and know how the system works.
Its getting booted down the road.
It will be 'someone else's problem' (an SEP)
After the election- even if the incumbents get back in, they 'inherited the problem' and can't be expected to solve it overnight......
IBEC- the Chambers of Commerce and the Multinationals- have all approached the government after Michael Noonan's and Simon Harris' statements on the matter (its been in the media- its not been done behind closed doors).
There is a perception in industry- particularly the multinational sector- that Ireland has become too expensive a country in which to conduct business- and it is impossible to remunerate employees in an appropriate manner.
Fine Gael have responded with platitudes about tackling our marginal rate of tax- and then commenced an all-mighty scrap with Labour over budgetary policy.
That is where we are at.
At last a bit of reality on boards.
The aim is to drive ordinary peoples wages to just above the poverty line, while making the golden circle as wealthy as possible, and it's working a treat.
The so called gold standard software engineer can be replaced at any time with an intern willing and able to do his work for € 150 per week, in the hope they will eventually get paid 450 per week net after 10 years. That's where we are at. A race to the bottom, with ordinary working people slitting each others throat and boasting about it. They have us all right where they want us.0 -
The man in question is commuting. Stop wishing he's living a stone's throw from Grafton Street.Sounds like the OP has the solution to people being able to afford to rent an apartment by themselves instead of house sharing in the highest demand area in the country.From what I can gather it goes like this. Joan Burton isn't even aware that there's a problem, let alone having a plan to do something about it.
- anyone on social welfare is to be moved to Leitrim and housed there.
- Their houses and apartments in Dublin are to be taken from them and given to people on low wages.
- Anyone on a higher wage that would like to rent or buy one of those properties for a higher amount than those others can afford can piss off. They are not getting them.
- People with higher incomes must rent the same type of place elsewhere but pay much more money for them.
Yep, i can see it happening all-right.
The fact is that the unwaged are valued higher than those who work.
Putting workers in Lietrim is useless if they can't work where they're needed. I don't know where you got the Lietrim idea from.
I'm not proposing Communism. People like Joan Burton are the communists IMO. I believe in freedom. I do have suggestions.
- a legacy welfare system that makes staying at home a no-brainer needs change
- there is a dole culture in Ireland
- the RAS tide rises all boats and makes work even less attractive. Workers should not have to compete with RAS tenants.
- Noonan had no response to 15% average price increases. Instead, he lauds this as the great recovery that Enda and Noonan are responsible for
- not even considering the possibility of heavily taxing second homes, so that non-speculators get priority. Communities would be stronger too if most of the people living in the houses own them.
- We need to get beyond the idea that Billy-20-houses is a great "entrepreneur" - sure he's thinking of going up for a seat on the council. Billy's value (economic and social) is dwarfed by people like James Whelton (CoderDojo) and the Collison brothers (stripe.com).
- an impotent Sheriff who will not evict overholding tenants makes rents much higher
- an impotent legal system whereby people who haven't paid their mortgages for years are still living in "their" homes
- PRTB is a farce. It's not fit for purpose. Justice delayed is justice denied.
- I would be in favour of introducing a "front line worker" housing subsidy
- local authority development levies are ridiculous. I don't know what the figures are, but I've heard that to build even the smallest of apartment blocks or housing estates requires handing over €100,000s to the local authorities in "social housing levies", "application fees", etc.
- bring back FTB stamp duty exemption so those at the tip of the demographic diamond have a chance against the silver multi-home investors.
- We need a discussion on what to do with people who don't own their homes and are now facing in to retirement
- We need to promote home ownership. Without an estate, you have a diminished stake in society.
All these things can be done at policy level and would very little (though Noonan's books might not look so healthy if the income from property went down). The economy has "recovered" because the income from property is rolling in again.
If the food supply was manipulated for the benefit of the few and the detriment of a large percentage of the population, something would be done about it overnight. The housing supply should be no different.0 -
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The_Conductor wrote: »Priority?
Don't make me laugh........
Jan O'Sullivan has set up 'a task force' to report to her on the matter........
The reason I'm so cynical- is because I've been there, done that- and know how the system works.
My post was not intended to amuse you. Jan O'Sullivan is Minister for Education, she only had short tenure in housing. This is now under Paudie Coffey's remit.0
This discussion has been closed.
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