New HTPC setup

corblimey

My recent thread on the foibles of my HTPC connection has whetted my appetite to maybe invest some of hard earned in a decent future-proofed set up. I've got a few questions, though.

1. I'm looking at the Synology Diskstation as the media storage, but I'm confused. I can get the enclosure plus 2 4TB Red WDs for 404 all in, why would I pay 440-odd for one that includes 2 HDs (this). Am I paying 40 quid for the convenience of not installing the drives myself? Is there something I'm missing?

2. I currently have 3TB of ripped shows and movies spread across various drives. That amount will rise in the future. If I understand the Diskstation usage correctly, one 4TB drive would be the storage and the other would be the mirror. Since this version of Diskstation only supports up to 4TB drives, am I not going to quickly outgrow it?

3. I'm leaning towards a barebones Intel system on the front end, but I'm a little concerned about how it would communicate with the media server. Can they both be wired, or is the Barebones a wireless system? It seems wireless is a bit dodgy in my house, so would prefer a wired solution.

4. If I understand the delights of the Diskstation correctly, it's pretty much a download-all solution, but I still rip my DVDs regularly as I buy them. I have DVDFab on my desktop Win 8 PC for this and I believe I'd need to continue this. So I'd need some way of getting the ripped MP4 down to the Diskstation, implying it would need to be set up as a Share on my Win 8 machine, is that doable?

5. My ideal setup would be something like this: a media server holding everything shared with the desktop PC for ripping and the barebones PC for streaming. But then, and I don't know whether this is possible. I'd like to be able to control the barebones PC fully from my armchair. Since I already have an iPad Mini, that would be my weapon of choice, and it looks like there are several remote desktop apps available for iPad to Ubuntu. So I'm confident this should work, but would be interested in hearing from people who have this sort of working.

Apologies for the length of the post.

Alfreado

Have you looked into a raspberry pi front end?

corblimey

Alfreado wrote: »

Have you looked into a raspberry pi front end?

I have indeed. In fact, I already have one somewhere around here. It was my original HTPC, but was ousted in favour of my current system. The problem is that I use my setup for one extra thing, watching NFL on Gamepass which requires a Win or Mac machine - possibly because it needs a flash-enabled browser, is that still an issue with *nix setups, I don't know.

Fallschirmjager

Okay I'm not getting creepy and stalking.

Sorry on the 2 links on the disk station, it just gave me the same link twice. I'm guessing from your email there is a difference, yep if it's cheaper to do it yourself then do that, some people may not want the hassle and if it doesn't work they return it all. Just remember you need to keep some type of hard drive backup....3tb is a lot to rebuild.

The nas boxes all work by attaching it to your home network. You need to attach it to your network router, one of the spare ports on the back, so you Hardwire it..which will solve some of the issues we were discussing on the other thread. It appears as a network drive in windows or Unix or xbmc for that matter. You just connect to them in windows as a drive letter for example.

On the barebones one, if you have the money get a bigger processor, that would be my recommendation. I know many here will disagree, but if you have the cash, I believe it's worth it. Remember barebones is barebones, it's a motherboard and cpu and fan in a plastic case. You need to buy memory and a hard drive, keyboard and mouse. the hard drive has to be the Msata drives. The picture looked really strange to me, they are normally much lower height Than that, at least the one I have is. All in that will cost you around 150 stg, for 199 you can get a newer i3 chip. The latest chip from Intel that works in these is called haswell and is extremely good with regards to power consumption and so quiet I can just barely hear the fan with my ear beside the case. These boxes work as follows, on the back of the box is a hdmi port, put in a hdmi cable that goes to your tv or if you have an amplifier, it goes to that., if your amp accepts hdmi in. Then you have another hdmi cable from the hdmi out to your tv. The amp get the sound from the hdmi cable and sends the video signal to your tv, or if you just wire it to the tv, the tv does both, just through your tv speakers. The network port in the back, plug in a cable and the other end in your router. All you need now is an operating system and a keyboard and mouse. One big recommendation I would give you is invest in a usb dvd drive. They are about 30 euro. You can install software (the operating system for example) using a usb stick, but that didn't work for me. So plug in a usb dvd drive and install windows or a burned copy of your Unix flavour. If you are ordering from amazon I am sure they have them, I got mine from Argos, so they are very common.

The OS discussion is a touchy one. Windows will set you back another 100 to 150 euro. There are loads of free Unix installations that work on this, from openelec to ubuntu to whatever. Most if not all use xbmc or plex. If you go windows you need a lot of memory and hard drive, if you go Unix you don't. It really depends on what your budget and knowledge level is. If you are a windows person, well you have your answer, if you want to try one of the others and see, they instal in about 10-15 minutes , so you can always see what it is like. Resist the temptation to run other crap on this htpc, if you can, regardless of the is choice. Keep it as bare as you can.

As for remote control, there is a free xbmc app for your pad, a really good one as it happens. You set that up to connect to xbmc and you can control xbmc from the pad. Works really well in fact. From memory if you set on in the bios WOL (wake in lan), you can get the PC (aka your new Intel box) will boot or restore from suspend. I don't bother to be honest, some times I just leave mine on all the time.

On mine, I have ubuntu and can go from suspend to active, honestly in about 1-2 seconds. I could have xbmc running all the time but I use ours for Netflix for the kids as well.

Welcome to the addiction!!!! Unfortunately there is no htpc anonymous, so prepare to exhaust every spare penny and time ...ps the Intel box does 3d also really well, the internal graphics is perfect for htpc, at least the one I have is fine. Hope that helps.

Fallschirmjager

ONe other thing might be worth looking at is the android boxes out for for about 120 euro. I have no experience of these but there is loads over on the android devices forum. Might be worth asking there...

corblimey

Tks a lot, Fallschirmjager, stalk away!

I've spent today reading up as much as I can to get a feel for what I'm trying to do, and fell into a wikipedia-related rabbit hole. I need to work out how much I'm happy to spend to get the best system that works for me. I think re storage if I'm going to put 2x4TB in the DS, I need 2 similar drives for backing up (and another 2 for offsite mirrors :eek: ). On the other hand, if I think small and just get a couple of 2TB drives for the DS cos that's all I need right now, in about a year, I'll have to replace 6 drives (which is what I've been doing for the last 5 years, upgrading every few months -- I've got a couple 320gb drives that used to be my backup)

Tazium

You'll enjoy the Synology. I've a DS214Play myself with two 3TB drives mirrored. As a media centre it's everything you'll need. Plug-in packages include DS Video which is both an indexer with movie/show information and cover-art. This has a companion app on the App store already - DS Video. using this on your mobile device you can stream straight from the NAS to the iPad or use the iPad a remote and send the stream to your telly. To do that you need a TV with media functionality, it doesn't have to be a 'smart' TV. My Samsung tv has a media player built in, and it's also wired to the same network as the NAS. Anyway my point is that this is a simple all in one solution.

I did extend and use a WD Live TV renderer which allows browsing of the NAS storage with it's WD custom interface (show information, cover art etc.) the bonus of the WD Live TV is that it's also got netflix and spotify and other apps that may be useful to you. Whatever you render with the synology as a backend is a sound choice. If I was buying again I'd get the same device, it's still that good. I'll upgrade to higher capacity disks when I need too.

Johnboy1951

3. I'm leaning towards a barebones Intel system on the front end, but I'm a little concerned about how it would communicate with the media server. Can they both be wired, or is the Barebones a wireless system? It seems wireless is a bit dodgy in my house, so would prefer a wired solution.

To address the NUC issue .....

They have an RJ45 socket as standard.

If you want wireless you need to get the wireless card.
You do not have to get it if you have no need of wireless ... which in my environment was useless for streaming Live TV in HD.

There are two types of case, one of which has space for a HDD and the other not, which makes it of smaller height.

The smaller case takes an mSATA drive and not a 2.5" HDD or SSD.

That unit also has an IR receiver built in, so all you need is a remote.

This is one review, but there are many on line
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-mac/pc-mac-desktops/intel-nuc-dn2820fykh-1261241/review

Be careful .. very careful .... of the number as that indicates the capabilities of the device, including which CPU is fitted but also whether it is a mSATA or HDD motherboard & case.

If you intend to run Windows on that I would agree with getting the best CPU you can.

On the other hand if running something like Openelec on it the lower end CPU is well capable.

Oh yes .... when getting memory for it, be sure to watch out for the voltage rating ..... Laptop memory was (maybe still is? 1.5V, but these units take 1.35 V memory.

Padraig Mor

corblimey wrote: »

2. I currently have 3TB of ripped shows and movies spread across various drives. That amount will rise in the future. If I understand the Diskstation usage correctly, one 4TB drive would be the storage and the other would be the mirror. Since this version of Diskstation only supports up to 4TB drives, am I not going to quickly outgrow it?.

Most people would set it up with a content plus mirror configuration, and that is the default settings. However, you don't have to, and could just set it up for 8TB of "normal" storage. If one of your drives goes down though, you're goosed!

I have a DS713+, also a 2 bay. While I don't have it full yet or anything, given my time again I'd probably buy a 4 bay unit to provide more room for future growth. You could still start off with two drives, and expand as necessary.

Bear in mind as well the differences between the Synology units. I'm guessing you'll have your Intel front end handling all the decoding, playing etc? However if at some stage you decided to add a Chromecast (or similar) elsewhere in the house (say bedroom) and using Plex Media Server to serve the media, you'll need a processor in the NAS that can handle transcoding which AFAIK the 213J can't - needs to be an Intel Atom chip. This may not be relevant for your however. If funds allow, I'd consider a DS415play or maybe a DS415+ depending on your needs. It's a pretty big step up in cost over the 213J, but should serve you well for a long time to come.

Fallschirmjager

Jerez dude, didn't mean to frack it up with backups. If you are trying to get setup, you will have to do what I guess most people do and I know I did and risk it. For me, family photos I use as much web based free stuff for that, so the missus is an apple head so we have 5 gb there and I tend to use android so another 5gb there. Also you can only do the best with what you have, so if you have the odd drive sitting by copy a few of the bigger movies for your backups.
You can go all colonel Kurtz in apocalypse now with backups, and before you know your building a nuclear bunker in the back of the garden to house them...

I also forgot as johnboy mentioned the nuc has a ir receiver built in, I have not used mine to be honest.

corblimey

Ok, after hovering for a week, I'm about to take the next step (well in a couple of weeks maybe anyway). Since I've got a rasp-pi around here somewhere, I'm going to see if using that or even my current HTPC will suffice as a front end for now, so I'm dropping the NUC requirement for now. Or is that a false economy?

I've got a basket in dabs which holds:

1x Synology DS415Play 4 Bay Desktop NAS
2x WD 6TB Red SATA 6Gb/s 64MB 3.5" Hard Drive

Might aswell future proof it as much as possible, and 2x 6tb drives (with one mirrored) will keep me out of trouble for a while. Like the man says, I can always add more drives later. Does the DS come with everything else I might need? Ethernet cables, power? Actually, thinking on it, that's probably all I need, right, ethernet and power?

Padraig Mor

corblimey wrote: »

Ok, after hovering for a week, I'm about to take the next step (well in a couple of weeks maybe anyway). Since I've got a rasp-pi around here somewhere, I'm going to see if using that or even my current HTPC will suffice as a front end for now, so I'm dropping the NUC requirement for now. Or is that a false economy?

I've got a basket in dabs which holds:

1x Synology DS415Play 4 Bay Desktop NAS
2x WD 6TB Red SATA 6Gb/s 64MB 3.5" Hard Drive

Might aswell future proof it as much as possible, and 2x 6tb drives (with one mirrored) will keep me out of trouble for a while. Like the man says, I can always add more drives later. Does the DS come with everything else I might need? Ethernet cables, power? Actually, thinking on it, that's probably all I need, right, ethernet and power?

Yes, mine came with power brick and an Ethernet cable - this may have been a 100Mb cable, rather than gigabit - I can't remember, but am using my own gigabit cable so that may be why (my cable is shorter too, so that could also be why I used it). 100Mb will be fine anyway though unless you're serving HD to several clients.

RPi should work fine, but I do regularly hear complaints of slow menus etc.

Synology is famed for ease of use and great customer service etc, but I'll admit my experience hasn't been quite as easy as some. The Diskstation finder programme you run on a PC to find it and get started didn't work for me and I had to work around it. Diskstation OS setup was fine. The automatic setup for router functions (port forwarding etc) didn't work for my router (Asus N66U) so had to be done manually which was a bit of a learning curve. I think they may have addressed this now though. Finally, many people, myself included, have trouble with system hibernation / sleep. Basically, mine won't sleep when not in use and spins 24/7. Some people would say that this is in some ways better than hibernating (less wear on disks) but it's something to bear in mind. Obviously this means extra power use, albeit fairly low. Lots of people on their forums with this issue, and not much help from the company.

Lest I sound over-critical BTW, I still think it's a great machine and I don't know how I managed without one! If you're not already, time to get familiar with SabNZB and SickBeard!

Johnboy1951

corblimey wrote: »

Ok, after hovering for a week, I'm about to take the next step (well in a couple of weeks maybe anyway). Since I've got a rasp-pi around here somewhere, I'm going to see if using that or even my current HTPC will suffice as a front end for now, so I'm dropping the NUC requirement for now. Or is that a false economy?

Anything but false economy to use an existing device (R-Pi) to see if you would be satisfied with it.

With everything running from SD card, the Pi can be slow (relative to faster hardware) to react to commands ..... mostly this seems to be due to the time it takes to read album art and such files from the SD card.
Using a USB stick to store such files helps a lot with the speed of response.
Also the Pi can be overclocked, giving another speed boost if required.

The Pi is great provided you recognise it for what it is ....... a severely limited hardware device that works miracles with what it has.
It does not compare well, for your application, with even the lowest end NUCs.
For other applications it would be the better choice.

I use a Pi as a client running Openelec for a TV where a choice is made to view something and no more playing with remote or hunting through channels is required.
It performs perfectly.
If I want to jump around through files and channels, with lots of artwork etc, then the Pi would not suffice.
I am long past that stage

corblimey

OK, so maybe I was shying away from the NUC because I have no idea what's good and what's not. There's just too many options, and while johnboy's review and Fallschirmjager's tips are helpful, I'm no closer to a decision.

If I went for this, is that overkill for a HTPC running OpenElec or some form of Ubuntu? I've not yet decided on my platform, so that'll be my first job, but in the meantime, hows the spec of that one?

If I get that, I need as much RAM as I can get in there (16gb seems the limit on this particular model) but since it's not really doing anything, a small mSATA hd should suffice, right? Actually, I've got a 256-gig Crucial M4 SSD sitting around - would that work? Add HDMI cables, a hub, keyboard and mouse, and I'm done?

Johnboy1951

corblimey wrote: »

OK, so maybe I was shying away from the NUC because I have no idea what's good and what's not. There's just too many options, and while johnboy's review and Fallschirmjager's tips are helpful, I'm no closer to a decision.

If I went for this, is that overkill for a HTPC running OpenElec or some form of Ubuntu? I've not yet decided on my platform, so that'll be my first job, but in the meantime, hows the spec of that one?

If I get that, I need as much RAM as I can get in there (16gb seems the limit on this particular model) but since it's not really doing anything, a small mSATA hd should suffice, right? Actually, I've got a 256-gig Crucial M4 SSD sitting around - would that work? Add HDMI cables, a hub, keyboard and mouse, and I'm done?

You really need to decide what you want to run on the device before deciding what spec is required.

For instance Openelec takes about 300MBs when running, and add plenty for other things, and 1GB is more than sufficient.

If you want to run Ubuntu and use the device to run a full OS then that is different .... you will need a more powerful CPU and more RAM.

The i3 should be sufficient for a full Ubuntu (or other Linux distro) but would be overkill for a media client at a TV.
A dual core Celeron would do that job with 1 or 2 GB RAM.

corblimey

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You really need to decide what you want to run on the device before deciding what spec is required.

You're right, and despite lots of reading, I can't decide yet. So what I'll do is just get the DS side of things for now. I've got a Windows laptop currently serving as my HTPC, so I'll hook that up to the DS first and see how it goes. Next option is the r-pi running openElec, and then if I'm still not happy, I'll take a look at the NUC option.

I'll be back, have some shoppin' to do

Johnboy1951

corblimey wrote: »

You're right, and despite lots of reading, I can't decide yet. So what I'll do is just get the DS side of things for now. I've got a Windows laptop currently serving as my HTPC, so I'll hook that up to the DS first and see how it goes. Next option is the r-pi running openElec, and then if I'm still not happy, I'll take a look at the NUC option.

I'll be back, have some shoppin' to do

That seems like a reasonable plan

corblimey

Done and done.

One more question, though. Currently, I use my desktop upstairs (wired connection) to um "keep my media collection up to date." I then copy what I want to watch to a shared folder on the desktop which I stream from on the laptop downstairs. If I understand things correctly, I should hook the DS directly into the laptop via USB (I'll need a USB cable and probably a hub), and then use the DS Manager to move things around, eventually moving towards a point where the DS basically does it own updating via sabnzbd etc.

Do I understand things correctly? Is that approach going to give me the "speediest" solution? Is the DS quiet enough to have under the telly?

Padraig Mor

corblimey wrote: »

Done and done.

One more question, though. Currently, I use my desktop upstairs (wired connection) to um "keep my media collection up to date." I then copy what I want to watch to a shared folder on the desktop which I stream from on the laptop downstairs. If I understand things correctly, I should hook the DS directly into the laptop via USB (I'll need a USB cable and probably a hub), and then use the DS Manager to move things around, eventually moving towards a point where the DS basically does it own updating via sabnzbd etc.

Do I understand things correctly? Is that approach going to give me the "speediest" solution? Is the DS quiet enough to have under the telly?

I think your laptop will become redundant. I run Sabnzbd and Sickbeard directly on the DS and control them from my mobile phone, both at home and out and about using the fantastic NZB360 app. I can also control them (and the DS) via web from anywhere in the world. I also interface with my NUC (including WOL switch on) and XBMC using the equally fantastic Yatse app (both apps Android). Obviously I use Usenet, but similar controls are available for torrents.

I'd have my doubts about the DS under the TV - mine isn't *loud*, but its noise is appreciable, although I do have it set on the "cool" setting which will run the fan faster. I don't think you'd notice it with a loud movie on, but it could annoy during general TV watching, if you're the type that that would annoy (like me!). I have my DS, Nuc, modem and router on a shelf in the hall over the front door. The Nuc is connected to the TV in the living room by a 10m (amplified) HDMI cable run through the wall and along the coving.

corblimey

Tks Padraig Mor. I did a bit more reading today, and it seems that the USB connection on the DS is only for backing up to external devices, so the connection between the DS and whatever is playing the media can be wired but only through the router. Given that, my best bet is probably to keep the DS upstairs next to the router, and the laptop downstairs streaming the media, which is more or less what I've got now (just with a weedier media hub).

I don't want to break holes in my walls just yet

eddiem74

corblimey wrote: »

Ok, after hovering for a week, I'm about to take the next step (well in a couple of weeks maybe anyway). Since I've got a rasp-pi around here somewhere, I'm going to see if using that or even my current HTPC will suffice as a front end for now, so I'm dropping the NUC requirement for now. Or is that a false economy?

I've got a basket in dabs which holds:

1x Synology DS415Play 4 Bay Desktop NAS
2x WD 6TB Red SATA 6Gb/s 64MB 3.5" Hard Drive

Might aswell future proof it as much as possible, and 2x 6tb drives (with one mirrored) will keep me out of trouble for a while. Like the man says, I can always add more drives later. Does the DS come with everything else I might need? Ethernet cables, power? Actually, thinking on it, that's probably all I need, right, ethernet and power?

Did you order yet? If yes from where and how much? Seems Komplett.ie was cheapest for the DS415Play from a quick check?

corblimey

Thanks a million for that catch, eddie. A good 65 quid cheaper, although the 6tb HDs are more expensive, so I'll still be getting those from dabs.

corblimey

Apologies for the bump, but at the weekend, I attempted to work out what I'd actually need in terms of storage. I've decided not to bother with RAID (yet) - if a HD fails, as long as I have a backup, I'll be fine til I get a replacement. I do though need backup (external HD which I'll take away with me).

Currently, I have a desktop PC which contains 1.4TB of media I'd be bummed about losing (and a lot of it is irreplaceable). I've also got 2TB of media on a 4TB external drive - this is my ripped DVDs collection and while it's not vital, it would be a PITA to lose it as ripping those hundreds of DVDs cost me a lot of time. I back up the 1.4TB of crucial media every weekend to 2 external 1TB drives, and I back up those backups and the 2TB of rips every month or so to matching drives which I take away with me. With this setup therefore, I've got 1 4TB and 2 1TB drives permanently hooked up to the PC and the same in a box in work jic.

So I get a 4 bay NAS, and plug 2 drives into it, then I copy the 1.4TB of media and the 2TB of rips onto the first drive. Now what? If the drives I choose are say 6TB as above, I've got some space to grow on the first disk and the second disk is completely empty - I'm not sure of the benefit of a mirror, won't that just perpetuate problems on the source disk (corrupted files, deleted files, etc)? With this, I can use one of the 4TB drives as a backup of the crucial data (which is only going to grow) but my 4 1TB drives are then essentially useless.

1. Is this a decent setup? Am I mad not to using a mirror?
2. Can I backup only certain files and folders from DS?
3. Anything I can do with the 4 1TB drives, along with the 2 500gig drives, 4 320gig drives and the solitary 250gig drive I've been using up til now? Just drive a nail through them and drop them down to the dump?

corblimey

Well, things have moved on for me. I finally took the plunge on a DS415play and 4x3TB drives - using the Synology Hybrid RAID solution, I get 8TB straight off, and I'll get more bang for my buck as I expand as needed. It all arrived yesterday and set up was easy, but now I have to start thinking about how to utilise it. I have several cobbled-together processes that I use to get this from here, and move that to there, so I'm going to be spending the weekend installing various packages and setting up various shares. If anyone has any good guides on how best to utilise the NAS, please pass them along.

Thanks for all the help so far. I'll be back when and if I need to change the front end (option A, use current laptop, option B, use a spare RPi, option C, spend money)

Padraig Mor

corblimey wrote: »

Well, things have moved on for me. I finally took the plunge on a DS415play and 4x3TB drives - using the Synology Hybrid RAID solution, I get 8TB straight off, and I'll get more bang for my buck as I expand as needed. It all arrived yesterday and set up was easy, but now I have to start thinking about how to utilise it. I have several cobbled-together processes that I use to get this from here, and move that to there, so I'm going to be spending the weekend installing various packages and setting up various shares. If anyone has any good guides on how best to utilise the NAS, please pass them along.

Thanks for all the help so far. I'll be back when and if I need to change the front end (option A, use current laptop, option B, use a spare RPi, option C, spend money)

I'll PM some info to you.