Christening

Hello,

I have been driven demented by my mother insisting that my son should be christening. She is in a very bad way and is bursting into tears and entering a depression over it. My husband doesnt feel strongly on the matter and thinks we should get it done to make her happy. Everypart of me feels this is a wrong decision. Im not catholic and dont want this for my son. She doesnt respect my beliefs and this is now driving a huge wedge between us.

Any advise?

Thanks

WittyName1

Sunnyspot wrote: »

Hello,

I have been driven demented by my mother insisting that my son should be christening. She is in a very bad way and is bursting into tears and entering a depression over it. My husband doesnt feel strongly on the matter and things we should get it done to make her happy. Everypart of me feels this is a wrong decision. Im not catholic and dont want this for my son. She doesnt respect my beliefs and this is now driving a huge wedge between us.

Any advise?

Thanks

I don't have any actual advise but if I was in your shoes I wouldn't give in to what is essentially a tantrum by your Mother. There's absolutely no way I will be Christening any of my future children. Far too many non believers go along with Christenings and first holy communions just because its 'the done thing'.

The Catholic Church in this country is an absolute joke and the sooner they lose their hold over people the better. It's this fear that people like your Mother have that is fueling the power they still have in this country.

Edited to add that a similar thread appeared in the personal issues forum here before....except the grandmother had actually gone behind the backs of the childs parents and had the child Christened herself!

Queen-Mise

How about a Naming Ceremony or something to that effect?

If you bow now to the Christening, you will have this same battle for First Communion and Confirmation.

Think about it seriously.

I did Christenings/Communions/Confirmations for the kids. I am anti-religious, but let the kids make up their own minds. Son is just after confirmation and is pretty apathetic about it. My daughter just had communion still enjoys Mass, prayers, the church etc. At mass the other day for a feast day for the founder of her school - she was praying for Tipp to win All-Ireland

WittyName1

Queen-Mise wrote: »

How about a Naming Ceremony or something to that effect?

If you bow now to the Christening, you will have this same battle for First Communion and Confirmation.

Think about it seriously.

I did Christenings/Communions/Confirmations for the kids. I am anti-religious, but let the kids make up their own minds. Son is just after confirmation and is pretty apathetic about it. My daughter just had communion still enjoys Mass, prayers, the church etc. At mass the other day for a feast day for the founder of her school - she was praying for Tipp to win All-Ireland

I don't mean to pick flaws in your post but by having your kids christened you didn't really 'let the kids make up their own minds'.

Neyite

I got my son baptised due to family expectations, and I really regret it. If I manage to have any more they won't be baptised.

Dont give in if you are not catholic. She can still 'baptise' the child herself with some holy water if she fears for his immortal soul, but at least he won't be on the baptismal register for life then. I know that lay people can baptise to satisfy their god - is get into heaven, say, in the event of an emergency but you have to get done again by a priest to get the certificate.

Foxmint

Sunnyspot wrote: »

Hello,

I have been driven demented by my mother insisting that my son should be christening. She is in a very bad way and is bursting into tears and entering a depression over it. My husband doesnt feel strongly on the matter and things we should get it done to make her happy. Everypart of me feels this is a wrong decision. Im not catholic and dont want this for my son. She doesnt respect my beliefs and this is now driving a huge wedge between us.

Any advise?

Thanks

Remember your mother feels this way because she truly believes it could effect her grandchild's eternity, so don't be too hard on her. Her belief that its good for the child, is a strong as yours.

It's your child though, and therefore your decision.

I wouldn't get into a direct argument with her about it, just say something along the lines of, "I'm not comfortable about it given everything that happened in the Church, maybe when he's older, and he wants to himself, and he can become a Christian/Catholic if he wants to when's he's older. The important thing is, neither of us should fall out about it."

pinkbear

I am atheist but chose to get my kids christened. This was because my parents are so religious that it would have upset them so hugely to think that their beloved grandchildren could never make it into heaven. To me, it was nothing, but to them it was everything. I couldn't bear to make them that upset, even though I didn't agree with them.

The Catholic church allow any kind of christenings in an emergency.... what about letting your mother christen the kids at the kitchen sink? That way she can believe that they'll make it into heaven some day, and you can easily forget and don't have to acknowledge it ever happened.

indigo twist

My parents would be pretty strict Catholics; my boyfriend and I are not religious.

I respect the fact that it must be very upsetting for my parents that their grandson won't be brought up as a Catholic. However, as I explained to them, it would be completely disrespectful and hypocritical of me to stand up in their church and make statements I don't believe to their god. I just couldn't do it. I'm not going to make promises I won't keep about bringing him to mass etc. I'm not going to admit that my innocent baby needs to be cleansed of original sin. And remember, as you're making these promises on behalf of your child, the church also requires the parents to affirm their own faith as part of the ceremony.

I know a lot of non-practising Catholics go along with the ceremony and make these vows through gritted teeth. However I think it's because of the fact that I know how important religion is to my parents that I won't do this. Also there's the fact that I get annoyed when I read things statistics about what percentage of the population are Catholic (often used in arguments about abortion legislation etc) - those numbers include myself and my son's father, and there is nothing we can do to remove ourselves from that register, which is very frustrating. But at least I can prevent my son from being included on it - unless of course he ever decides he wants to, and is old enough to make that decision for himself.

I probably wouldn't object to my parents throwing a bit of water over his head and saying a few prayers, as others have suggested - perhaps you could suggest this to your mother? She could even talk to her own priest about it to confirm if this would be enough to save the baby's "immortal soul". It's a possible compromise, and the baby still wouldn't officially "belong" to any specific religion.

Having said that though, as a matter of principle, I wouldn't be too happy if I felt "forced" to compromise in any way on a matter like that. What happens when she disagrees with your disciplinary methods, or your choices when it comes to weaning, or your choice of school? Is this going to start a pattern where, if she cries and moans enough, you'll give in for the sake of peace? Because if you compromise on this, she may come to expect it - and to think that she has a right to have a say on the big parenting decisions.

Bear in mind that your son can be baptised at any stage in his life. But he can never be "unbaptised" - once you've signed him up, he's on the register for life. It's not a decision to be taken lightly. There are so many people in this country (myself included) who wish they had never been baptised, but can't do anything about it. It might be difficult now to explain your decision to your mother - but think long term; isn't it going to be even more difficult in a few years to explain to your son why you lied in order to sign him up for a faith that you don't practise or believe in?

How Strange

Neither of our children are christened. My husband has no religion and never did. He was always firmly against christening them. I was a catholic but am not anymore.

My parents are the traditional practising Catholics. My father would come across as the more staunch in his catholic views yet it was my mother who kicked up the fuss from the time I was pregnant on O.

I've always said to them that we're not doing this to be confrontational. We simply believe very strongly that our children wouldn't be christened Catholics by us. We lost a sibling as a baby so I'm very sensitive that this is a matter close to my mothers heart. She worries about what would happen to then if.....

However I've always told her that she and my dad raised their family their way and this is our family who will be raised according to our values. I still get jibes about holy god or a lack of, about christenings and it not being too late etc but I think the message has finally gotten through.

All I can say is Op, if it's something you feel very strongly about then stand your ground. Your mother is simply throwing a tantrum and if unfortunately she gets depression it's not because you didn't christen your child. It's for many other reasons. If you capitulate and christen then you'll have to go through with the other sacraments too.

Mulumpy

I was brought up in a strong Catholic household. Im non practicing. My wife is C.o.I. Both our kids were babtised in her church but as Christians so they can decide what they want to be when older. our parents were more than happy about this.
OP i do believe i know you have your strong beliefs but is it worth falling out with our parents over. There is always a middle ground somewhere.

newtoboards

I'm no longer a practising Catholic but got married in a church and had my son christened. I did both for my husband and nobody else. My mother really wanted my son baptised but understood it was my decision and left it at that. My mother in law on the other hand was not at all understanding and was devastated when we told her that it was not my wish to have the religious sacraments. She prays for me and put a sneaky medal into my son's crib which I obviously took out due to choking hazard never mind the religion.

It is you and your husbands right and privilege to raise your children as you see fit and to respect other people's choice to do likewise. I would explain it in those terms to her if you can over and over. Don't let her push you into something against your morals and be careful to be dispassionate about it so you don't damage the relationship with her.

Closed_Account

Don't do something you strongly disagree with because you'll really regret it. My OH was fully aware of how strongly I felt before we decided to have kids and even agreed with me to some degree. However, when our first was born, he did a big U turn (mainly down to some family pressure and other feeble excuses). It caused MAJOR ructions I stood my ground and in the end we came to a compromise where we contacted a very nice priest that we know who agreed to give the baby a blessing. He couldn't do it in the church as the baby wasn't christened but agreed to come to our house to do it. It was nice and it went some way towards appeasing family although there are still some raised eyrbrows and remarks when the subject comes up. When anyone tries to go on about it now I just tell them to mind their own business. It's crazy how upset people get over things like this when they rarely bother going to mass etc themselves

Also, to anyone who says they baptised their children so that they can decide when they are older: this is a silly mentality. As it stands, it is extremely difficult to leave the catholic church. So what you are doing, in effect, is agreeing to indoctrinate your child, NOT agreeing to give them a choice at a later date. I didn't baptise my child but when they reach an age where they are fully able to understand religion, if they choose to become catholic, then that is fine by me. Baptising a baby doesn't give them any choice.

Mulumpy

I dont really understand when people say your not giving a child a choice when you baptise them. I was baptised, my parents are very religious but accept my decision not to practice. My parents did they're best for me at the time and ive no regrets. its only a piece of paper at the end of the day its on your own concious what you want to make of it.

newtoboards

Mulumpy wrote: »

I dont really understand when people say your not giving a child a choice when you baptise them. I was baptised, my parents are very religious but accept my decision not to practice. My parents did they're best for me at the time and ive no regrets. its only a piece of paper at the end of the day its on your own concious what you want to make of it.

That piece of paper is a symbol though of something far greater and to get that paper you state that you will raise your child Catholic. Just like the legal marriage certificate is a piece of paper it makes me my husbands next of kin and gives me inheritance rights on his death.

jill_valentine

Give in on this and you'll have to have all the same arguments in seven and then twelve years time.

amdublin

I think that it is wrong to stand up and make commitments that you are not going to go through with. And frankly I think a lot of parents need to realise this.
Why bother with a christening if you are not going to do anything you promised you would do?

How to deal with your mother is a difficulty though. Explain to her that you are perfectly okay with your child making that choice in the future if that is what they want but you are not going to do that now for them.
The few prayers and water (but not official baptism) sounds like a compromise.

indigo twist

Mulumpy wrote: »

I dont really understand when people say your not giving a child a choice when you baptise them. I was baptised, my parents are very religious but accept my decision not to practice. My parents did they're best for me at the time and ive no regrets. its only a piece of paper at the end of the day its on your own concious what you want to make of it.

It's not only a piece of paper when the Catholic church states that its members, which make up XX% of the Irish population, are fundamentally opposed to (for example) divorce and abortion, and when they are including me in those numbers. And when they are denying me the option to ever distance myself from the organisation.

I hate that I am included in that statistic, when I fundamentally oppose the Catholic church's stance on many political issues in Ireland, and disagree with most of the Catholic church's fundamental beliefs and teachings.

I am unhappy that my son will be denied a place in most local schools because he's not Catholic, and Catholics get priority over him on the lists. I am also unhappy that, if I did enrol him in a Catholic school, he will miss out on valuable time that should be spent on education, while his friends are preparing for their communions and confirmations. This is only the case because - according to records - something like 85% of Irish people are Catholics. If we were able to leave the Catholic church; if the records could be updated to reflect the true number of practising Catholics in Ireland, it would be a lot more difficult for the Catholic church to justifying denying children places in school due to their religion (or lack thereof), and it would be a lot more difficult to justify teaching religion (as fact) during school hours.

It's not only a piece of paper. The fact that so many people (like yourself) view it that way is what gives an archaic organisation a disproportionate amount of power and control in Ireland today.

Foxmint

indigo twist wrote: »

Bear in mind that your son can be baptised at any stage in his life. But he can never be "unbaptised" - once you've signed him up, he's on the register for life. It's not a decision to be taken lightly. There are so many people in this country (myself included) who wish they had never been baptised, but can't do anything about it. It might be difficult now to explain your decision to your mother - but think long term; isn't it going to be even more difficult in a few years to explain to your son why you lied in order to sign him up for a faith that you don't practise or believe in?

Just to clear this misconception up, a record of baptism is just that, a record that a baptism took place, it doesn't make you a current member of anything. It's not a "register for life", and it's not used to calculate church members.

WittyName1

Foxmint wrote: »

Just to clear this misconception up, a record of baptism is just that, a record that a baptism took place, it doesn't make you a current member of anything. It's not a "register for life", and it's not used to calculate church members.

You are completely wrong. It makes you a member of the Catholic church - an organisation which you can no longer ever leave once becoming a member.

Foxmint

WittyName1 wrote: »

You are completely wrong. It makes you a member of the Catholic church - an organisation which you can no longer ever leave once becoming a member.

You'll have to provide evidence for this common internet yarn, I've never seen anyone do so to date. The church doesn't use baptism records to calculate numbers. It's a record of an even that took place, just in the same way your school cannnot claim your leaving cert never took place. If you have left you have left. Your local golf club does not issue letters to non members saying they are not members. Either you are a paid up member or you are not.

newtoboards

Foxmint wrote: »

You'll have to provide evidence of that then, I've never seen anyone do so.

It seems from the attached that only denouncing your faith is the only way not to be Catholic and there doesn't seem to be a formal process defined for that either.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/if-im-baptized-as-a-catholic-does-that-mean-im-catholic-forever-even-if-i-marry-outsi

Foxmint

newtoboards wrote: »

It seems from the attached that only denouncing your faith is the only way not to be Catholic and there doesn't seem to be a formal process defined for that either.

There is an even easier way, you just don't be a Catholic and you're not one, its a simple as that. You can walk across the road and join another church, religion, none etc. Baptism records are not used to calculate the number of current Church members.

Mulumpy

Just getting back to OP. They have the right not to have they're child baptised but that isnt the issue. The issue is the torment it is causing her mother.
Im not saying they're mother is right putting pressure on but surely our parents deserve (not all) some respect to be allowed their view and a fair agreement put in place.
Its very hard for the previous generation just to switch off when the catholic church had (has)such a hold over its followers.

newtoboards

Foxmint wrote: »

There is an even easier way, you just don't be a Catholic and you're not one, its a simple as that. You can walk across the road and join another church, religion, none etc. Baptism records are not used to calculate the number of current Church members.

I disagree; using your golf club analogy where if I stop paying membership fees I am considered no longer a member. With Catholicism I'm considered a lapsed member of the religion even by choosing not to visit the frequent members meetings and activities. Also I made it clear to our priest that I do not go to mass as I don't believe in it and there was no problem with me either getting married or having my son christened as I am still Catholic in his eyes and he thought my husband might me able to win me back round.
It does matter that I cannot write a letter to the head of the Catholic religion and no longer be a Catholic.

bur

Ah just do it for your mammy if it's making her that upset.

We're probably the last generation where this kind of thing will be expected or forced upon us by our parents or family. Atheists will still have their day in their sun whether your child is christened or not.

Foxmint

newtoboards wrote: »

I disagree; using your golf club analogy where if I stop paying membership fees I am considered no longer a member. With Catholicism I'm considered a lapsed member of the religion even by choosing not to visit the frequent members meetings and activities. Also I made it clear to our priest that I do not go to mass as I don't believe in it and there was no problem with me either getting married or having my son christened as I am still Catholic in his eyes and he thought my husband might me able to win me back round.
It does matter that I cannot write a letter to the head of the Catholic religion and no longer be a Catholic.

Neither parent needs to be a Catholic to have a child christened.
Non Catholics can get married in a Catholic church to Catholics.
A baptism is a record of a past event that took place.
If some well meaning indivdual golf club member claims that to them, you are still a member, it doesn't mean you are. Walk into your golf club and offically ask them to issue everyone who is no longer a member with an official letter saying they are no longer a member, or were never a member, and demand them to keep offical records of everyone who says they are no longer a member, and see how you get on. You are't required to write a letter to a Golf club saying you are not a member, you simply stop paying your dues and stop going, and volia, you are no longer a member. If you were born in Dublin but living elsewhere, walk up to city hall and ask them for an official letter saying you are no longer living in Dublin, and ask them to offically record it in the birth cert register, and see how you get on. No organisation in the real world works that way.

You arn't a Catholic, so get over it. Catholics join other religions and leave all the time.

jill_valentine

How much do priests ask for a Christening these days btw? On top of what the attendees put in the basket out of politeness? It's probably not a huge amount in the grand scheme of things but I'm sorry, it would gall me badly to put a cent in that organisation's pocket in the name of a child, just to keep somebody quiet.

WittyName1

Foxmint wrote: »

Neither parent needs to be a Catholic to have a child christened.
Non Catholics can get married in a Catholic church to Catholics.
A baptism is a record of a past event that took place.
If some well meaning indivdual golf club member claims that to them, you are still a member, it doesn't mean you are. Walk into your golf club and offically ask them to issue everyone who is no longer a member with an official letter saying they are no longer a member, or were never a member, and demand them to keep offical records of everyone who says they are no longer a member, and see how you get on. You are't required to write a letter to a Golf club saying you are not a member, you simply stop paying your dues and stop going, and volia, you are no longer a member. If you were born in Dublin but living elsewhere, walk up to city hall and ask them for an official letter saying you are no longer living in Dublin, and ask them to offically record it in the birth cert register, and see how you get on. No organisation in the real world works that way.

You arn't a Catholic, so get over it. Catholics join other religions and leave all the time.

To use your pointless golf club analogy - if I want to cancel my membership I must inform them before they charge me for next year. I can email them, post a letter or call them and tell them to cancel my membership.

There is no longer a way to cancel your "membership" to the catholic church. No membership fees are paid so just stopping them isn't an option.

Religion is such a massive thing to a lot of people. It's not something you should sign your child up to if you don't believe in it yourself. It should always be the choice of the person themselves when they reach a suitable age. And you definitely shouldn't sign them up to make someone else happy I.e. the grandparents.

Sign them up the the local golf club instead.

Foxmint

WittyName1 wrote: »

Religion is such a massive thing to a lot of people. It's not something you should sign your child up to if you don't believe in it yourself. It should always be the choice of the person themselves when they reach a suitable age. And you definitely shouldn't sign them up to make someone else happy I.e. the grandparents.

Sign them up the the local golf club instead.

Actually you don't, you just stop paying and stop attending. If your not a paying the sub and you don't attend, your're not a member. Simples.

Why would you suggest signing them up to the local golf club if you don't want them to play golf ? And even if you do, they are later free to be a non member or joing another golf club any time they like.

newtoboards

Foxmint wrote: »

Actually you don't, you just stop paying and stop attending. If your not a paying the sub and you don't attend, your're not a member. Simples.

Canon law disagree's with you as do I so we will have to agree to disagree. I think that's a simpler, far clearer, more sensible approach.

Foxmint

newtoboards wrote: »

Canon law disagree's with you as do I so we will have to agree to disagree. I think that's a simpler, far clearer, more sensible approach.

What cannon law ? I've heard this internet yarn a thousand times but never seen it proven.

You're free to join any other religion or none.