Half Term report

flazio

Right, so we are 6 episodes into a 12 episode series. What are we making of it so far?
I'm going to be honest here and say it's been a bit hit and miss.
I'm not really warming to Peter Capaldi as the Doctor. He doesn't come across as the hero of the day as well as the other Doctors did. Take for example the scene in Listen where Clara and Rupert/Danny weremail talking in his bedroom about nothing being under the bed and then the Doctor was suddenly sitting at the desk, normally this is the moment when you think 'hooray' the doctor will sort that monster out like when 11 did with Amelia's crack in the wall. I'm not getting that with 12. Things improved this week but I feel this episode was more written for Smith then the Doctor we've had for the past few weeks.

volchitsa

I loved that episode, certainly far more than the ones before it. I feel they moved up a gear there, and that while I agree that early epis have been patchy so far, I think they're heading in the right direction. That said, I admit I do really want that to be the case, so I hope it isn't just wishful thinking!

volchitsa

Oh another important thing - I think the long "run-in" period where Capaldi isn't always totally convincing, or convinced, yet can be explained by the mistakes made in developing a sexually ambiguous Dr-assistant relationship during the Matt Smith, and to a lesser extent, David Tennant, periods.

I think Capaldi has to find a way back from that, and it takes time to do it believably. And Jenna thingy with her specialty in casting shiny adoring glances doesn't make it easy. I think she was a bit of a casting mistake, tbf. That said, she did better in last night's epi, where she did have a love interest to distract her from needing to seduce the doctor.

Wibbs

Hit and miss for me too. A bit confused at times.

volchitsa wrote: »

yet can be explained by the mistakes made in developing a sexually ambiguous Dr-assistant relationship during the Matt Smith, and to a lesser extent, David Tennant, periods.

I dunno about lesser extent with Tennant, that was the high watermark of that sorta thing. Him and Billie Piper were a bona fide couple, with hand holding and the love bomb being dropped.

volchitsa

Yep, that's true, but she left because of it, didn't she? (I didn't follow the Tennant period at the time, only got into it regularly again when my own kids began watching it, so that was Matt Smith, and I've seen many of the Tennant ones as repeats and not in any order.)

But you're right, I was thinking more of Catherine Tate and (Martha Jones?) and also that the arrival of Clara(Jenna whatever) was a big step in the seduction plot line. I just think that seems to be her stock in trade, and I don't mean that negatively. Billy Piper was the same but possibly saved by the working class thing that gave a bit of depth.

pixelburp

flazio wrote: »

[...]Take for example the scene in Listen where Clara and Rupert/Danny weremail talking in his bedroom about nothing being under the bed and then the Doctor was suddenly sitting at the desk, normally this is the moment when you think 'hooray' the doctor will sort that monster out like when 11 did with Amelia's crack in the wall. I'm not getting that with 12. Things improved this week but I feel this episode was more written for Smith then the Doctor we've had for the past few weeks.

Funny because I thought that scene was the moment where Capaldi's incarnation took shape and showed himself that he was still The Doctor in mentality if not deed; his speech about fear as a superpower was fantastic and perfectly 'Doctoresque'. For me, the Doctor isn't just about saving the day, but empowering and encouraging others to save themselves, to find the strength within to look monsters in the eye and tell them to go home.

As for the overall question on the series, I dunno, it's hard to say and I think if I'm being fair we should wait 'til the season is over and all the themes and subplots get their chance to play out. There's nothing like Bad Wolf or the Doctor's 'death' hanging over the series this time, it feels like the pay-off will be something more focused on the characters, specifically the Doctor and Clara. This is a new regeneration cycle and seems to be factored into the Doctor's personality; the irrational hatred of soldiers being a big part of that and you'd think that'll be the big resolution here.

What's curious about series 8 though is that it feels, ever so slightly, like Moffat might have lost some of the wonder and spark that defined his earlier efforts, both as guest writer and script editor. He's 4 years in the job, equalling RTD's own length of time in the role (if we discount the year of 'specials' that were RTD's final contribution) and Moffat's predecessor often betrayed signs that he'd also run out of steam or ideas, culminating in the execrable quality drop at the end of Tennant's run that felt like RTD had gone 'fcuk it' and just written whatever nonsense came to mind. Perhaps Moffat's race has run and is best stepping down, allowing some fresh blood and ideas take control of the show.

The_Valeyard

Wobbly start, but I am liking this new doctor, good so far, 'Listen' was brilliant, caretaker was a good laugh.

Blue_Dabadee

Hit and miss with me as well. I have only enjoyed 3 episodes of current season so far which were "The Caretaker", "Listen" and "Into the Dalek".

I really do hope this season will pick up in second half.

Mr Rhode Island Red

I think Capaldi is great and (apologies Fangirls) better than Smith.

scream

I'm not as won over by Capaldi as I'd expected to be at this juncture. This manic, slightly mad doctor isn't what I was expecting. I wanted a little more seriousness from him to be honest.

The_Valeyard

Id have to disagree, I think the silliness is part of what make Doctor Who great.

Doctor DooM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Id have to disagree, I think the silliness is part of what make Doctor Who great.

Yeah, remember this is a kids programme we're watching.

Anyway, I'm always amazed by these threads- and there's always these threads with new Doctors- where people literally give out about everything. He's too silly, he's not silly enough, he's acting too old, he's not acting old enough...

How about we compare like with like? Each of the Doctors first 6 episodes since the comeback.

Series 1

Highlight : Dalek

To this day one of the best slices of Doctor Who. The new series has never been able to recapture the sense of menace this gave them.

Lowpoints: Rose, Aliens of London/ World War 3

Robot Mickey, farting aliens and evil bins. Lucky we hung around, in retrospect.

Judgement: Nothing in series 8 is as bad as the low points, and Listen is as good as the high. In my opinion, series 8 is better than series 1 so far.

Series 2

Highlights: Girl in the Fireplace, School Reunion

Girl In the Fireplace is where Moffat really hit his stride with Who. School Reunion I think begins the RTD era at its best.

Lowpoint: Tooth and Claw

Silly dancing fighting monks in Scotland for no reason. Still not a really bad episode though.

Judgement: S2 had bad episodes but the first 6 are all quite strong, GitF being exceptional

Judgement: Overall, I think series 2 has a stronger opening than series 8. I would watch all of these episodes again, and I don't think I'll care all that much about 2 or 3 of S8 so far.

Series 5

Highlights: Time of Angels/Flesh of Stone

Moffat in control, seriously creepy, full of action, work on the River mythos, yes please and thank you.

Lowpoints: Beast Below, Victory of the Daleks

Beast Below is so belaboured about its central conceit (alien is just like the Doctor! JUST LIKE HIM SEE HOW LIKE HIM IT IS) and Victory of the daleks will be laughed about for years to come.

Judgement: In retrospect Smith's start was kind of weak. S8 is much better.

Series 8

Highlights: Listen, the Caretaker

Listen is one of my favourite slices of Who ever. The Caretaker is genuinely funny and full of development.

Lowpoint: Robots of Sherwood..?

Not a bad episode really, but doesn't match the tone the rest of the series has struck, just imo.

Final judgement: Series 8 tends to match the high water marks of previous first 6 episodes but has so far never sunk as low as many of them. Looking back, Season 2 was probably stronger and hit a zeitgeist that might not be matched again. Outside of that, S8 is quite strong.

Girl in the fireplace

Doctor DooM

bluewolf wrote: »

Girl in the fireplace

Yeah I love nearly everything about that episode, the clockwork robots look soooo classy for one.

The music was unreal too

The Master

Just to throw in...

Series 2 low point - Love And Monsters (Shudder)

Banjoxed

The Master wrote: »

Just to throw in...

Series 2 low point - Love And Monsters (Shudder)

Oh I don't know, the Mighty ELO, crap monster and Paving Slab Blow Job Girlfriend.. It's the Tod Browning's Freaks of NuWho..

ForstalDave

the new Dr who series made the doctor to much of a hero with everyone expecting him to save the day and all will be ok, i think they are trying to move away from that as it got to a point where no matter the enemy the dr was always going to win easily

pixelburp

The Master wrote: »

Just to throw in...

Series 2 low point - Love And Monsters (Shudder)

I dunno, if you ignore Peter Kay's character and the terrible resolution, the personal interplay between the group of characters was nice.

Series 2 low point surely must be 'Fear Her'. Irredeemably bad in my eyes!

Mr.Saturn

pixelburp wrote: »

I dunno, if you ignore Peter Kay's character and the terrible resolution, the personal interplay between the group of characters was nice.

Series 2 low point surely must be 'Fear Her'. Irredeemably bad in my eyes!

I'd agree. All 3 Doctor-lite episodes added to the myth and aura surrounding The Doctor. Fear Her also screamed 'budget overrun' so loud that it was nigh-on impossible to focus on anything actually occurring within it.

Doctor DooM

The Master wrote: »

Just to throw in...

Series 2 low point - Love And Monsters (Shudder)

pixelburp wrote: »

I dunno, if you ignore Peter Kay's character and the terrible resolution, the personal interplay between the group of characters was nice.

Series 2 low point surely must be 'Fear Her'. Irredeemably bad in my eyes!

Both of them occur in the second half of the series though, I was being kind very specifically to the first half. The idea being that people attack every single new Doctor without comparing like to like.

I think you could argue Tennants first 6 are stronger than Capaldis, but you couldn't for Eccles cake or Smith. IMO!

pixelburp

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Both of them occur in the second half of the series though, I was being kind very specifically to the first half. The idea being that people attack every single new Doctor without comparing like to like.

I think you could argue Tennants first 6 are stronger than Capaldis, but you couldn't for Eccles cake or Smith. IMO!

Ah yeah, that is true to be fair to your post, though I might contend that moments of Series 2 demonstrated obnoxious levels of hubris in Rose and the Doctor, endlessly mugging and giggling to each other as if it was all hilarious. It made stories like Tooth and Claw or New Earth almost unbearably smug: arguably the Doctor has rarely been as domineering as he was during series 2(a) when he was shouting about being the highest authority. Even strong episodes like School Reunion were problematic, as Rose had begun to develop an unsympathetic jealous streak.

The actual stories might have been a touch stronger in series 2's first half than with series 8, but the characterization was poorer in my view, when compared with Capaldi's run so far. I don't necessarily agree with this incarnation's hatred of soldiers, but there's a richer depth behind the tomfoolery than series 2's often teenage ... canoodling IMO!

Doctor DooM

pixelburp wrote: »

Ah yeah, that is true to be fair to your post, though I might contend that moments of Series 2 demonstrated obnoxious levels of hubris in Rose and the Doctor, endlessly mugging and giggling to each other as if it was all hilarious. It made stories like Tooth and Claw or New Earth almost unbearably smug: arguably the Doctor has rarely been as domineering as he was during series 2(a) when he was shouting about being the highest authority. Even strong episodes like School Reunion were problematic, as Rose had begun to develop an unsympathetic jealous streak.

The actual stories might have been a touch stronger in series 2's first half than with series 8, but the characterization was poorer in my view, when compared with Capaldi's run so far. I don't necessarily agree with this incarnation's hatred of soldiers, but there's a richer depth behind the tomfoolery than series 2's often teenage ... canoodling IMO!

That's a fair argument, I don't disagree. I'm kind of basing the way I'm looking at it in the way I'd probably go back and watch every episode of S2a as you put it again, whereas I can't see me bothering with Deep Breath and Robots of Sherwood again.

That's not to say they're bad, they're head and shoulders above farting aliens and WWII planes in space while you diffuse a bomb with love, just didn't find them as memorable as S2 was (or, to be fair, the last 3 episodes of S8...er, a).

smacl

As the new Doctor, it feels that Capaldi should be starting to grow on me a bit more than he is at this stage, though I probably felt the same about Matt Smith after David Tennant's exit. I think one or more guest writers would really help, and would be thrilled silly if they could get Neil Gaiman back on board again. Moffat can be a fantastic writer, but to me it feels like he's struggling at the moment and could to with a dig out.

volchitsa

Yeah, I love Gaiman as a writer anyway, he's miles ahead of Moffat, IMO. The thing about Who is it does need someone with a bit of depth writing it, possibly because of the length of time it's been running.

Doctor DooM

People have short memories. Gaiman has one good episode and one bad, which for me puts him quite a way behind Moffat.

ebbsy

All good so far from what i have seen.

Doctor DooM

ebbsy wrote: »

All good so far from what i have seen.

Nightmare in silver is generally not well regarded and considered a lot of missed potential.

smacl

Doctor DooM wrote: »

People have short memories. Gaiman has one good episode and one bad, which for me puts him quite a way behind Moffat.

Gaiman is a prolific multi-award winning sci-fi author, and while he has only dabbled in Doctor Who scripts to date, I would say he has all the potential to come up with plenty more outstanding Doctor Who material given the opportunity. While he's only done two episodes, one of which was very average, The Doctor's Wife remains my favourite NuWho episode so far by a considerable margin. Moffat has also created some fantastic episodes, but given it is a series that has regularly had numerous contributing writers, I'd love to see more Gaiman on the list.

Wibbs

Of the Ecclestone Doc series I found "Fathers day" to be well freaky and just a tad uncomfortable. Much more "real" and home based than "Dalek". Pretty dark with it. He brings her back to witness her fathers death(as a "favour") and she runs with it and causes all sorts of timeline issues. He sorts it all out as you do, but in the end she sees the inevitability of her dads death and witnesses it in the new timeline. That's well creepy and a long way from "farting aliens" as you can get and that within a few weeks of the latter.

Doctor DooM

Wibbs wrote: »

Of the Ecclestone Doc series I found "Fathers day" to be well freaky and just a tad uncomfortable. Much more "real" and home based than "Dalek". Pretty dark with it. He brings her back to witness her fathers death(as a "favour") and she runs with it and causes all sorts of timeline issues. He sorts it all out as you do, but in the end she sees the inevitability of her dads death and witnesses it in the new timeline. That's well creepy and a long way from "farting aliens" as you can get and that within a few weeks of the latter.

Fathers Day is awesome (and reminds me of Buffy at its best for some reason) but it is outside of the range of the first 6 episodes that Capaldi was being judged on. If you judged Ecclestone the same way, you have to admit it looks pretty poor.