Occupy Hong Kong

Gatling

Looks like china are going to have a big problem with the current situation in Hong Kong .
2 separate groups (numbers in the thousands) are staging the largest pro democracy protests seen in China since Tiananmen Square in '89 .
Police are currently trying to disperse the crowds with pepper spray and baton .
Making threats of further consequences if the crowds don't disperse .
Be very interested to see how china deals with this over the next few days been they don't have major military presence on the island .

BoJack Horseman

Is Hong Kong not semi-autonomous?

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Is Hong Kong not semi-autonomous?

It was part of the hand back from the royal lease for a better word .
They have their own legal system and so on .
One country 2 states I think it's referred to .
The people were promised they would get to democratically elect there own leaders/ ministers to run the island .
One man one vote .
Now the communist party are saying you choose from our list and the people on the list must pledge allegence to love china and communist party.
Bar blacking out the island and blocking all Internet communications they will a major problem on their hands trying to quell any dissent

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

It was part of the hand back from the royal lease for a better word .
They have their own legal system and so on .
One country 2 states I think it's referred to .
The people were promised they would get to democratically elect there own leaders/ ministers to run the island .
One man one vote .
Now the communist party are saying you choose from our list and the people on the list must pledge allegence to love china and communist party.
Bar blacking out the island and blocking all Internet communications they will a major problem on their hands trying to quell any dissent

It was always the case, afaik, that you could elect who you wanted, but they had to be approved by HQ in Bejing. Evidently that's not enough for the control freaks within the party.

The classic way of dealing with this kind of thing when there isn't forces at hand is to start negotiations or come to an arrangement, then use 'secret police' etc to pick off the leadership, prominent members and so on.

Gatling

Where the party will have issues is the population is used to its freedom when you suddenly decide sorry get back under our boot or else especially the younger generation picking off a few leaders is going to be a lot harder to deal with ,
I'm sure a lot of Asian business's will be watching this carefully .
As well as the new china middle /upper classes

Jinonatron

Can't find a thread on this and I am kind of surprised. It seems a mass disobedience campaign that was planned for Wednesday has escalated on Sunday. The issue is that the Hong Kong citizens are annoyed that Beijing wants to vet and approve all candidates for the 2017 Chief Execuitve elections which they argue is anti democratic.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out. It is going to be a real test for Beijing. They find themselves between a rock and a hard place. A protest like this would only last minutes in mainland China but in the handover agreement of Hong Kong between Britain and China
it was agreed that protesting is allowed in Hong Kong. Beijing risks doing nothing and demonstrating to more conservative Hong Kong citizens that it is safe to protest or they can call into service one of their army garrisons stationed there which also might encourage more people to protest. Also Beijing fears as always this will spread to mainland chinese cities.

I am very interested in this one and it will also be watched very closely in Taiwan where the result could have big impacts.

I am in Beijing where the Chinese media are reporting that 60000 people have come out to celebrate China national day.


I would like to post a link but I am a new user and not allowed.

dimcoin

I have been to HK a few times, my friends there told me they were worried about an eventual chinese incursion on tueir democratic rights. I don't think something this overt a move by China was expected so soon before 2047, the year the 50 year transition period for HK ends.

InTheTrees

I hope the people in hong Kong can get what they want. They've been provoked by the mainland government for too long and now this is perhaps the final straw.

But I don't think Beijing is likely to give in either.

Jinonatron

Just reading some other forums. Images of the Chinese military confronting protestors would be a disaster for Beijing especially since the Tiananmen incident.

Ruu

Moved from After Hours. Read the new charter below. Ta.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056544373

Thread merged with existing one.

Gatling

According to china state controlled media there was a gathering of people outside a government building and the people came to enjoy the green space around the building,

Internet is been blocked to prevent people reading reports about the current situation in Hong Kong

Gatling

According to state media there was a gathering of people outside a government build ,
The people enjoyed the green space around the building

K-9

Jinonatron wrote: »

Can't find a thread on this and I am kind of surprised. It seems a mass disobedience campaign that was planned for Wednesday has escalated on Sunday. The issue is that the Hong Kong citizens are annoyed that Beijing wants to vet and approve all candidates for the 2017 Chief Execuitve elections which they argue is anti democratic.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out. It is going to be a real test for Beijing. They find themselves between a rock and a hard place. A protest like this would only last minutes in mainland China but in the handover agreement of Hong Kong between Britain and China
it was agreed that protesting is allowed in Hong Kong. Beijing risks doing nothing and demonstrating to more conservative Hong Kong citizens that it is safe to protest or they can call into service one of their army garrisons stationed there which also might encourage more people to protest. Also Beijing fears as always this will spread to mainland chinese cities.

I am very interested in this one and it will also be watched very closely in Taiwan where the result could have big impacts.

I am in Beijing where the Chinese media are reporting that 60000 people have come out to celebrate China national day.


I would like to post a link but I am a new user and not allowed.

Mod:

Thread moved from After Hours, and merged with existing thread on the topic.

Manach

Hopefully this process will occur peacefully, in spite of the historical legacy of Tieneman Square. However given events that have been occurring in the Western portion of the country where there have been numerous violent clashes with the central authorities it could be that the state would not wish to seem weak in the face of other protests which could spread to the mainland.

joe swanson

Op, putting 'occupy' before something makes me really not want to support it

Godge

joe swanson wrote: »

Op, putting 'occupy' before something makes me really not want to support it

When I saw this thread title, I immediately thought of this:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92355397&postcount=204

"What's next for the Occupy movement? It's hard to say. It's clear only that as soon as they fail to accomplish one objective, they move on to something else."

Calling the current protests Occupy Hong Kong will do nothing to help their credibility.

My name is URL

joe swanson wrote: »

Op, putting 'occupy' before something makes me really not want to support it

'Occupy Central' is the name of the movement. They'll probably get by without your support anyway

Godge wrote: »

Calling the current protests Occupy Hong Kong will do nothing to help their credibility.

Only in the eyes of idiots that decide not to support something based on name alone

20Cent

Tense situation there doubt the Chinese will be able to do a Tienanmen Square and go in shooting. They will be able to beat and clear them though and what can the west say they did the same thing!

Link to their website: http://oclp.hk/index.php?route=occupy/eng

hfallada

It doesn't make a difference what the state media reports. Most Chinese know it's total propaganda and most use software to bypass the great wall of China, to access the free internet. Chinas biggest worry is probably the issues of HK could spread to Taiwan.

Gatling

Tried updating thread title cant seem to change it to pro democracy Hong Kong

20Cent

Gatling wrote: »

Tried updating thread title cant seem to change it to pro democracy Hong Kong

The protesters and the media are calling it Occupy Central or Occupy Central with Love and Peace.

Gatling

20Cent wrote: »

The protesters and the media are calling it Occupy Central or Occupy Central with Love and Peace.

Hence the thread title ,

Hold the Cheez Whiz

There are two groups publicly protesting: Occupy Central with Love and Peace, and a student-led group which is angry about the CCP trying to politicize the curriculum on the island. The students have a fair amount of public support, especially after they were tear gassed by police. And the push by the CCP to control the candidates list is extremely unpopular.

I think a bigger question for Hong Kong's future is the extent to which mainland control over the territory threatens not just political interests but financial interests. International firms are already pulling out of the mainland because of industrial espionage, and the more the mainland controls the regulatory infrastructure of Hong Kong, the more attractive alternatives like Singapore become. Money drives Hong Kong, and when interference from Beijing hurts the ability of people in HK to make money, that's when the shíte will really hit the fan. The irony is, many mainland millionaires park their money in HK (and in particular, HK real estate) precisely because HK has a different regulatory infrastructure than the rest of China. The paranoia of the CCP officials in Beijing may end of strangling the goose that lays the golden eggs.

ressem

hfallada wrote: »

It doesn't make a difference what the state media reports. Most Chinese know it's total propaganda and most use software to bypass the great wall of China, to access the free internet. Chinas biggest worry is probably the issues of HK could spread to Taiwan.

No, Taiwan's an entirely separate state with it's own government having no ties to Beijing. The Beijing government makes claims on the island and some military posturing towards a forced take-over now and again.

Beijing might worry about Shenzhen (a city adjacent to Hong Kong which became the gateway to the Chinese mainland, where the population has gone from 300,000 to 10 million in 30 years.)

Gatling

The Chinese are lost in what to do next ,
They have very limited options with what to do they cant shut down the internet or media outlets ,
And only a limited military presence on the island too so no mass crack down

Black Swan

renegademaster wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq3BYw4xjxE

MOD CHARTER REMINDER:

Dr Galen wrote:

Posting a link to a video hosted elsewhere does not constitute discussion. Not everyone is able to watch videos, for technical or other reasons, and points raised on a video are almost impossible to refute. It's OK to link to a video, but it should be accompanied by a detailed summary of its contents and arguments, and you must be prepared to discuss it.

Godge

My name is URL wrote: »

'Occupy Central' is the name of the movement. They'll probably get by without your support anyway



Only in the eyes of idiots that decide not to support something based on name alone

Using the name "Occupy" before a protest turns many people off, especially in Ireland, given the pointlessness, futility and failure of previous "Occupy" protests.

It also adds to the impression of career protestors who are constantly looking for something to protest against regardless of its merits.

At the same time, certain people do fall for the label in the short-term like the media and gullible others.

The issues in Hong Kong are unique to Hong Kong, reflecting the history of that city state and the precarious links to China.

My name is URL

Godge wrote: »

Using the name "Occupy" before a protest turns many people off, especially in Ireland, given the pointlessness, futility and failure of previous "Occupy" protests.

It also adds to the impression of career protestors who are constantly looking for something to protest against regardless of its merits.

The issues in Hong Kong are unique to Hong Kong, reflecting the history of that city state and the precarious links to China.

'Occupation' protests have been a thing for many years. It's a specific form of protest / demonstration lasting for a prolonged period in a specific area

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_(protest)

Why should they, or people discussing it here avoid using the term just because a few people are narrow minded enough to erroneously conflate it with 'career protesters'?

At the same time, certain people do fall for the label in the short-term like the media and gullible others.

What label are you referring to with the above?

Godge

My name is URL wrote: »

'Occupation' protests have been a thing for many years. It's a specific form of protest / demonstration lasting for a prolonged period in a specific area

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_(protest)

Why should they, or people discussing it here avoid using the term just because a few people are narrow minded enough to erroneously conflate it with 'career protesters'?



What label are you referring to with the above?

Protests with the label "Occupy"! I thought it was obvious.

As I said, that label is discredited to many people, especially in Ireland. "Occupy" Dame Street did nothing except turn people off, annoy locals and tourists and achieved not one of its original aims.

I am sympathetic to protestors in Hong Kong, I am not sympathetic to another protest with the "Occupy" label.

My name is URL

Godge wrote: »

Protests with the label "Occupy"! I thought it was obvious.

It's a protest incorporating the occupation of a public area. It's not so much a label as a descriptive term for what is happening. Only those with a very narrow view of things would see it as anything other than that.

Godge wrote: »

As I said, that label is discredited to many people, especially in Ireland. "Occupy" Dame Street did nothing except turn people off, annoy locals and tourists and achieved not one of its original aims.

I am sympathetic to protestors in Hong Kong, I am not sympathetic to another protest with the "Occupy" label.

Well the thread is about the protests in Hong Kong, not the one on Dame Street. Yourself and Joe Swanson are the only two to have brought that up in an attempt to derail the discussion about what is happening in Hong Kong.

So you support the protesters in this case? Why even mention the Dame Street protests and link to the other thread? Just to get a sly dig in at that group.. who have nothing to do with the discussion here?

Godge

My name is URL wrote: »

It's a protest incorporating the occupation of a public area. It's not so much a label as a descriptive term for what is happening. Only those with a very narrow view of things would see it as anything other than that.



Well the thread is about the protests in Hong Kong, not the one on Dame Street. Yourself and Joe Swanson are the only two to have brought that up in an attempt to derail the discussion about what is happening in Hong Kong.

So you support the protesters in this case? Why even mention the Dame Street protests and link to the other thread? Just to get a sly dig in at that group.. who have nothing to do with the discussion here?

Quite simply, when I see the prefix "Occupy", my knee-jerk reaction is that this is a bandwagon protest jumping on the bandwagon of similarly failed and futile "Occupy" protests. A lot of the time it doesn't bother me as whatever is being protested against is meaningless or futile.

Hong Kong is somewhere I have been and I understand the issues clearly. I am reluctant to get involved though because of the label. Calling it "Occupy" is a help to the Chinese government as when they ignore and suppress the protest they can say they are the same as the Western governments. Playing into their hands.

As to why this is important, have a read:

http://www.scholastic.com/teachers/article/political-labels-whatx2019s-name

"By exploiting the public's ignorance, politicians can create a bad image for a bill or a policy with a single, well-chosen negative term".

This must be even worse when self-inflicted.

http://hschneider.hubpages.com/hub/How-Do-Political-Labels-Define-And-Divide-Us

"The public learns about these views and they are constantly stressed to them until they are ingrained into the public's consciousness. Labels are a major tool in accomplishing this task. Soon the public is only aware of this view or policy and the rest of the candidate's body of work and policies are forgotten. This is true no matter how positive the candidate's record is."

Like it or not, "Occupy" has a certain appeal to serial protestors, and the opposite effect on the general public.

http://sociology.about.com/od/L_Index/g/Labeling-Theory.htm

"Unfortunately, people who accept the labeling of others—be it correct or incorrect—have a difficult time changing their opinions of the labeled person, even in light of evidence to the contrary."

There is so much out there on the concept of labelling and political action. While on the one hand I can rationally try and discount the failed "Occupy" label, it is difficult to put aside the emotional reaction to it. Doesn't that alone make the labelling a failure?

BoJack Horseman

Can the thread title be changed?

It has the potential to be a massive event & doesn't need the baggage an "occopy" label carries.

"Protests in Hong Kong" perhaps?

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Can the thread title be changed?

It has the potential to be a massive event & doesn't need the baggage an "occopy" label carries.

"Protests in Hong Kong" perhaps?

Tried to edit to pro democracy Hong Kong but it doesn't change .

Any how tomorrow is potentially a big day we might or might not see how the party reacts now

P_1

Gatling wrote: »

Tried to edit to pro democracy Hong Kong but it doesn't change .

Any how tomorrow is potentially a big day we might or might not see how the party reacts now

Report your OP to see if one of the mods might be able to change it for you

As others have said I can't see what the powers that be in Beijing can do about this without running the risk of having a massive capital flight from the area.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Can the thread title be changed?

It has the potential to be a massive event & doesn't need the baggage an "occopy" label carries.

"Protests in Hong Kong" perhaps?

Even the HK newspapers are reporting on it as 'Occupy'. Are the sensibilities of posters in this forum so delicate that a completely different vocabulary is needed to describe world events? Should we start referring to republican movements in other countries by a different term so as not to conjure up images of Gerry Adams? Good grief.

My name is URL

Godge wrote: »

Quite simply, when I see the prefix "Occupy", my knee-jerk reaction is...

Well that's too bad for you, isn't it? Your asinine kneejerk reactions to a simple word don't change the situation in HK, it won't cause the main movement behind the protest to change their name, and it won't stop any right minded person from rationally looking at the story and discussing what is happening on its merits.

You're basically showing yourself as a reactionary dimwit, incapable of looking at the bigger picture.

Grow up ffs. Why bother contributing at all to a thread if you can't get over a menial detail like that? :rolleyes:

Godge

My name is URL wrote: »

Well that's too bad for you, isn't it? Your asinine kneejerk reactions to a simple word don't change the situation in HK, it won't cause the main movement behind the protest to change their name, and it won't stop any right minded person from rationally looking at the story and discussing what is happening on its merits.

You're basically showing yourself as a reactionary dimwit, incapable of looking at the bigger picture.

Grow up ffs. Why bother contributing at all to a thread if you can't get over a menial detail like that? :rolleyes:

Labels matter (see my earlier posts with links) whether you are talking about politics or anything else. The label "Occupy" has an unfortunate connotation (hey does using that word show I am not dimwitted?) for me and others, I would prefer that the people in Hong Kong wouldn't use it. I will leave it at that.

Gatling

It's looks likes numbers are swelling now apparently at the 100,000 + mark meanwhile china media says the markets are collapsing and people are been prevented getting to their places of work.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

Gatling wrote: »

It's looks likes numbers are swelling now apparently at the 100,000 + mark meanwhile china media says the markets are collapsing and people are been prevented getting to their places of work.

"Collapsing" is a bit of an exaggeration - the Hang Seng Index has closed down about 1.2 percentage points over the last several days.

I wouldn't doubt that some people are unable to get to work, but the MTR stations are open, and in Central, many of the stations and buildings are linked by tunnels and walkways.

I'm not saying that the protests aren't disruptive, but Beijing gets semi-hysterical even when confronted with relatively small affronts to its supremacy, so the mainland comments aren't surprising.

Gatling

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

"Collapsing" is a bit of an exaggeration - the Hang Seng Index has closed down about 1.2 percentage points over the last several days.

I wouldn't doubt that some people are unable to get to work, but the MTR stations are open, and in Central, many of the stations and buildings are linked by tunnels and walkways.

I'm not saying that the protests aren't disruptive, but Beijing gets semi-hysterical even when confronted with relatively small affronts to its supremacy, so the mainland comments aren't surprising.

They've been interviewing people coming and going from work on the likes or sky , BBC .retuers
And they all said there was no issues getting to work or leaving only it takes an bit of time more than usual.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

Gatling wrote: »

They've been interviewing people coming and going from work on the likes or sky , BBC .retuers
And they all said there was no issues getting to work or leaving only it takes an bit of time more than usual.

Yeah, that's what I suspected. My mother just came back, and although the crowds are bigger now, she was in Admiralty and didn't have any problems.

I have spent a lot of time there over the last few years, and it is such a pragmatic, organized, energizing, amazing place. I hope things get back to normal soon, but I have to wonder if this will be a major turning point for the city.

Iwasfrozen

This is an interesting one, there's not really any way for the Chinese government to come out good on this one. If they allow the protests and ultimately acquiesce to their demands they lose face in mainland China and people see they're not omnipotent after all. If on the other hand they crack down on the protests they risk international condemnation that will destroy the good image they've been trying to foster since the 90s.

Hong Kong should never have been put under Chinese administration, independence should have been an option from the start.

fly_agaric

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If on the other hand they crack down on the protests they risk international condemnation that will destroy the good image they've been trying to foster since the 90s.

Yes, a tricky situation but I doubt they give two hoots about any international squeaks of condemnation; what their own people think is the important thing.
Western countries anyway are well and truly bought off, witness all the sucking up that goes on whenever China send one of the top men on a visit here (or indeed to any western European country).

20Cent

Heard a guy on Sean Moncriefs show earlier talking about it says the protesters are very well organised they even held training sessions, have medics and equipment. The students who joined in have joined in much larger numbers than expected. These guys are determined don't see either side backing down. Hope it goes peacefully.

Berserker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hong Kong should never have been put under Chinese administration, independence should have been an option from the start.

Totally agree. Chinese administration was always going to led to the current situation. We all knew that. Independence was the only viable way forward for them. The words 'China' and 'democracy' don't go together. I am really interested to see how they play this, as you said. Crack down and they damage their improved image around the Western world; succumb to the democratic wishes of Hong Kong and they risk losing face in China.

renegademaster

someone needs to tell the Chinese to drop the Occupy name quickly, that's the real issue here and we need to bring it up as often as possible, imagine the horror if random people began Occupying everywhere again and demanding change for 99.9% of the population, oh the shame...

Gatling

Authorities have given an ultimatum disperse by Monday or face dire consequences .
Looks like china are getting annoyed

20Cent

Reports of hired thugs attacking protesters.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/03/hong-kong-protestesters-democracy-occupy

mikeym

Cameron is too scared of China.

Imagine if Britain wanted to take Hong Kong back

BoJack Horseman

mikeym wrote: »

Imagine if Britain wanted to take Hong Kong back

Well, they don't.

So, pointless.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.