Ireland's "Peaceful Protestors" - Pest Control?

grundie

A few weeks ago I got a letter through my door from "The Crumlin Says No Action Committee" * advising me that if I didn't want a meter they would stand with me and provide people to protest outside my home during the meter installation.

If that's not a rent-a-mob, then what is?

Oddly, the letter provided no information on how to contact this group, no website, email or phone number.

* or similar, I can't remember the exact wording.

Fukuyama

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Hard to know what to think about you lads, One lot of you say it's the 'usual suspects' organising the protests and another lot claim it's 'random mobs'.
The title of the thread includes the words 'pest control', that in itself says a lot about the attitude of people who don't believe in the democratic right to protest.

So you've just dodged the entire discussion and decided to revert to th easy way out - claiming people who don't agree with you are anti-democratic facists?

Should we just tolerate any kind of behaviour, once we label it a protest?

Protesting and anti-social behaviour should be two separate things. When you combine them it's intimidation and thug politics - how can you, as someone who supports democracy, support this?

Mark Tapley

I would imagine the Gardai are trained in crowd control and a decision has been made on how to handle the situation. Whether we think they are being light or heavy handed they are the ones with the training.
I suspect peoples enthusiasm for tear gas , arrest etc is more to do with the growing McCarthy like paranoia with anything that the "left" is perceived to have a stake in.
Would people please stop saying " entitled " the endless repetition makes it meaningless.

Fukuyama

grundie wrote: »

A few weeks ago I got a letter through my door from "The Crumlin Says No Action Committee" * advising me that if I didn't want a meter they would stand with me and provide people to protest outside my home during the meter installation.

If that's not a rent-a-mob, then what is?

Oddly, the letter provided no information on how to contact this group, no website, email or phone number.

* or similar, I can't remember the exact wording.

I have received similar leaflets with mobile numbers. Quick searches of the mobile numbers bring up hard-left political organisations.

These "Action Committees" are not made up of apolitical, concerned residents. They're career protesters who have a finger in every political PR issue in Ireland.

Fr. Ned

Dean0088 wrote: »

So you've just dodged the entire discussion and decided to revert to th easy way out - claiming people who don't agree with you are anti-democratic facists?

Should we just tolerate any kind of behaviour, once we label it a protest?

Protesting and anti-social behaviour should be two separate things. When you combine them it's intimidation and thug politics - how can you, as someone who supports democracy, support this?

What's anti-social about protesting about a scam like Irish Water?
A company set up to line the pockets of people like Denis 'tax non dom'?
You're the one claiming that protesters are anti-democratic, not me.

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

I think it's fairly obvious that the hard left and many of the IW protest groups are pretty close to fringe republican groups. So a former BA member voicing an opinion is the antithesis of their political goals for the island of Ireland.

Of course, they live in a dreamland where their new, fledgling democracy with no taxes and free speech is somehow accompanied by the suppression of those who disagree with them or took a job in the British military. We're dealing with idiots here...

the BA used violence and slaughter as a way to try crush all who were against the racist bigoted system that was in NI. therefore its not surprising people don't wish to bother with the opinions of x BA members

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

I think most normal Irish people's relationships with AGS is one of viewing them as peacekeepers. They have their issues, mostly at the top of the chain. Most of us have very little interaction with AGS other than getting a form stamped or attending big events. However, they're there if we need them. The average garda on the street is pretty well respected and, generally, they're quite an approachable force.

So when video after video of Gardaí dealing with torrents of abuse (most of which contains little to no political motivation), and the gardaí fail to respond with arrests, it's infuriating.

The sense of entitlement is also overwhelming. Blocking the táinistes car was allowed to proceed for 5 minutes. These protesters user disabled pensioners to block the road and when gardaí try to move them (very very gingerly, barely touching the guy) they're called scumbags etc... I'm no fan of the táiniste and can't wait to see her ejected from government at the next GE. However, I respect her position as the deputy leader of the country and if I have an issue with her (personal or political), I won't take it up with her by calling her vial names from a crowd.

The person holding the video threatens to pull the garda driver out of the car, and gets thick with another guard who places a hand on him to direct him out of the way of the car.

I want to see the garda use pepperspray or batons because this traveling circus is wasting time and breaking the law. Not because I enjoy seeing violence, but because I think groups of people shouldn't be allowed to act with impunity right in a national police forces face.

This thread is primarily about the behaviour of protesters, not the actual IW issue. I've yet to see a video of an actual peaceful protest that doesn't break the law or descend into a group of "adults" acting like hyper children when the teacher leaves the classroom.

no sense of entitlement here at all. the guardai's current tactics are the best your going to get and they work well. batons and pepper spray are not going to happen as there is to much of a risk of violence.

Fr. Ned

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I would imagine the Gardai are trained in crowd control and a decision has been made on how to handle the situation. Whether we think they are being light or heavy handed they are the ones with the training.
I suspect peoples enthusiasm for tear gas , arrest etc is more to with the growing McCarthy like paranoia with anything that the "left" is perceived to have a stake in.
Would people please stop saying " entitled " the endless repetition makes it meaningless.

There's people on this website who think that anyone disagreeing with the government should be beaten off the streets and even locked up according to a few.

Fukuyama

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I would imagine the Gardai are trained in crowd control and a decision has been made on how to handle the situation. Whether we think they are being light or heavy handed they are the ones with the training.
I suspect peoples enthusiasm for tear gas , arrest etc is more to with the growing McCarthy like paranoia with anything that the "left" is perceived to have a stake in.
Would people please stop saying " entitled " the endless repetition makes it meaningless.[/QUOTE]

I think you're right. Making arrests, particularly of the most obvious offenders of the videos, only makes martyrs of them in the eyes of their supporters.

Sadly, I think this is the result of the very thing you want to stop hearing - "entitled". The tone, rhetoric and opinions of these people is exactly that - entitled.

They feel they can block a ministers car yet cry garda brutality when they're gingerly patted out of the way. They feel they can speak for the majority purely because they have whipped together a small group. And they feel they can infringe on the rights of others simply because they have a point to make.

And, whether you like it or not, the anti-social behaviour and obvious presence of opportunistic skangers at these protests is a result of a growing culture in Ireland. A huge portion of which is a sense of entitlement towards society and the State.

Fr. Ned

end of the road wrote: »

the BA used violence and slaughter as a way to try crush all who were against the racist bigoted system that was in NI. therefore its not surprising people don't wish to bother with the opinions of x BA members

Most ex-BA have some type of mental problems/issues after years in the army.
They wouldn't have been the brightest bulbs in the box even before they signed up.

Fukuyama

end of the road wrote: »

the BA used violence and slaughter as a way to try crush all who were against the racist bigoted system that was in NI. therefore its not surprising people don't wish to bother with the opinions of x BA members

Has zero relevance to Ireland today. There are thousands of Irish people in the BA - all of whom are as entitled to an opinion on Ireland's affairs as any other Irish person.

The only racism and bigotry on this issue is from your camp who aligned a poster with crimes committed by the BA 30 years ago.

There are plenty of Americans who served in the National Guard and never set foot in Iraq, does that mean that can't have an opinion on ISIS or any other issue in the ME? Get real.

Fr. Ned

Dean0088 wrote: »

Sadly, I think this is the result of the very thing you want to stop hearing - "entitled". The tone, rhetoric and opinions of these people is exactly that - entitled.


A huge portion of which is a sense of entitlement towards society and the State.

Is this the PS/semi-state crowd you're referring to?

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

You're consistently nit-picking any details from a particular post, or a posters personal life to avoid condemning scumbag behavior on the part of the protesters, which is the topic of this thread.

Not once in this thread has there been calls for the suppression of anti-government protesters. There has been calls for law and order among protesters, and the enforcement of such by gardaí. Nobody supports garda violence, they support a police force that doesn't treat those breaking the law with Extra-Special-Entitlement-Padded-Kid-Gloves (Patent Pending).

If your idea of protesting and conducting yourself in a legal, peaceful manner are mutually exclusive then I think your position is clear to any level-headed person reading this thread.

the guardai are enforcing the law. they are doing it in such a way to ensure as peaceful an outcome as possible. its a tactic that works

Fukuyama

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Most ex-BA have some type of mental problems/issues after years in the army.
They wouldn't have been the brightest bulbs in the box even before they signed up.

PTSD plagues plenty of ex-military, police, ambulance crews, fire fighters, not just British. Pretty low to bring that into a debate just to target a poster. It also has nothing to do with someones opinions or intelligence, in the same way many mental issues neither stem from nor impact upon intelligence.

From what I've seen, there aren't many 100W bulbs at these protests either.

Fukuyama

end of the road wrote: »

the guardai are enforcing the law. they are doing it in such a way to ensure as peaceful an outcome as possible. its a tactic that works

The attitudes and behaviour of protesters is appalling. This simply isn't being condemned from your camp - in fact, many posters seem to relish in a bit of drama in housing estates.

The gardaí aren't there to make sure things don't escalate - these idiots should know how to behave like adults. They're there to ensure those who break the law, and continue doing so despite their presence, are dealt with the way a peaceful, democratic country does - arrest, charge and if necessary, a trial.

Fr. Ned

Dean0088 wrote: »

PTSD plagues plenty of ex-military, police, ambulance crews, fire fighters, not just British. Pretty low to bring that into a debate just to target a poster. It also has nothing to do with someones opinions or intelligence, in the same way many mental issues neither stem from nor impact upon intelligence.

From what I've seen, there aren't many 100W bulbs at these protests either.

What poster was I targeting????
I'm stating my opinion based on some personal experience. My sister wen't out with one of these ex-BA lads and I met a few of his mates. After a few pints the issues come to the fore quite easily...

Fr. Ned

Dean0088 wrote: »

The attitudes and behaviour of protesters is appalling. This simply isn't being condemned from your camp - in fact, many posters seem to relish in a bit of drama in housing estates.

The gardaí aren't there to make sure things don't escalate - these idiots should know how to behave like adults. They're there to ensure those who break the law, and continue doing so despite their presence, are dealt with the way a peaceful, democratic country does - arrest, charge and if necessary, a trial.

Arrest, charge and send them to trial for what exactly?
Obviously there's a few headbangers at these protests and some would have issues with the Gardai either way but the most of them look like ordinary people struggling to get through life.

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

If a crowd is told to move onto a green area to protest, and doesn't do so after multiple attempts, then I think they should be arrested to discourage further "protests".

The gardaí are there to facilitate protests, not to allow any kind of carry on in residential areas just because 30 or so loud mouths realise they can ignore garda orders in big numbers.

There is no special, anti-protest law on the books here. This is simple Public Order offences.

When a protester is injured by traffic or hurts themselves around the construction areas, there'll be questions about why the gardaí didn't move the protest to a safer area.

but it wouldn't work and would be to costly, and the protests would still continue but with more violence and people armed to protect themselves from the guardai, meaning all sorts of problems. all because of your dream of guardai violence. the guardais tactics are working. get over it

Fukuyama

Fr. Ned wrote: »

What poster was I targeting????
I'm stating my opinion based on some personal experience. My sister wen't out with one of these ex-BA lads and I met a few of his mates. After a few pints the issues come to the fore quite easily...

I'm bewildered as to how some random soldier with issues has anything to do with a posters opinion on how gardaí should respond to illegal protester tactics?

The poster did not mention his BA service. It was brought into the debate by another person, out of the blue. Why was this done and why was it relevant?

My opinion, given the tone of that post, was that it was mentioned to discredit the posters opinion and was likely to garner support based on the strong, extremist republican views of many of the protesters (as evident by their affiliation to several groups).

Fukuyama

end of the road wrote: »

but it wouldn't work and would be to costly, and the protests would still continue but with more violence and people armed to protect themselves from the guardai, meaning all sorts of problems. all because of your dream of guardai violence. the guardais tactics are working. get over it

Except they're not. The only thing that will dampen down these protests is the rain we're expected to have over the next few days.

Fr. Ned

end of the road wrote: »

but it wouldn't work and would be to costly, and the protests would still continue but with more violence and people armed to protect themselves from the guardai, meaning all sorts of problems. all because of your dream of guardai violence. the guardais tactics are working. get over it

In dean's world, protesters would be arrested, charged and sent to trial/prison.
I hope he never gets his wish because that would be the start of something that would quite quickly get out of control.
The Gardai are doing their job, they're well trained on how to deal with situations and should be left to deal with them.

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

Idiots do.

Any normal person knows that repeated foul and abusive language to a garda should warrant an arrest because in order for a police force to police, they need respect. If I walked up to a garda and repeatedly called them a **** I'd expect to be arrested and charged .

This is not suppressing anyone's right to free speech, it's upholding the law.

This kind of anti-social behaviour has ruined many parts of Dublin and elsewhere and the gardaí are hamstrung by resources, the judiciary and political correctness from dealing with it. Just because it's being repackaged as a "protest" doesn't make it any less anti-social, intimidating and illegal.

no, they need to earn the respect. the days of police automatically getting respect because of who they are are long gone and frankly rightly so. a guardai arresting someone for calling them names when i can't have someone arrested for calling me names is a waste of money and any guardai who does it should have the cost deducted from their wages. the gardaí are hamstrung by resources, the judiciary but not political correctness because it doesn't exist.

Fr. Ned

Dean0088 wrote: »

I'm bewildered as to how some random soldier with issues has anything to do with a posters opinion on how gardaí should respond to illegal protester tactics?

The poster did not mention his BA service. It was brought into the debate by another person, out of the blue. Why was this done and why was it relevant?

My opinion, given the tone of that post, was that it was mentioned to discredit the posters opinion and was likely to garner support based on the strong, extremist republican views of many of the protesters (as evident by their affiliation to several groups).

Seems to be the common thing with people in favour of the water tax and the control of protesters.
It's all about the 'extremist republican views'.
There's something else going on here.

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

I don't know what fantasy land you're living in, but when the democratically elected government of a country passes a law, it's not up to individual housing estates to decide whether or not they want to accept said law.

Furthermore, you seem to think that small groups of angry idiots represent entire housing estates which could contain 5,000+ people?

Finally, the gardaí don't take sides. Nobody is advocating limitless violence to put down anti-water meter protests. People are advocating that they gardaí up their tactics to handle protests which are unruly. Their first and only port of call so far has been to handle protesters with kid gloves.

If the gardaí were the police force of Fianna Gael, you'd have thought they wouldn't have cut their wages, allowances and reduced resources. This is not the policy of a government hell bent on creating a police state.

You repeat, again and again, that people who don't like to see anti-social protester and their behaviour, mere feet from their front door, are in support of a police state. The boring reality is that most people want to the law upheld, and those that repeatedly refuse to comply with all reasonable garda requests should be arrested and charged under the Public Order act.

I have addressed your points. Now I put a direct question to you:

State your opinion on the behaviour of protesters as seen in videos uploaded by the protesters themselves.

the guardai are upholding the law. those who don't comply with requests are arrested. so its happening

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

The only videos being posted online are by the anti-water meter crowd. Surely it would be in their best interests to put up such videos. However, it seems nonexistent.

I'm not going to go and video tape 5-6 people standing around as "proof" of people's ability to be peaceful. Abiding by the law isn't something to win political points over. It's called normal behaviour.

The discussion is on how gardaí should handle situations where by your own admission in the post quoted above, protesters resort to intimidating and illegal behaviour. I for one, think those in breach of the Public Order act should be warned once and arrested if they don't cop on.

Further failure to comply shouldn't get the usual "ah now, c'mon now lads" reaction from AGS, they should stand their ground and enforce the law.

the guardai are doing that though. enforcing the law

Fr. Ned

end of the road wrote: »

the guardai are upholding the law. those who don't comply with requests are arrested. so its happening

Mind you, it begs another question.
If the Gardai are 'going easy' on protesters, as dean says, who's telling them to do that?
Is it coming from the minister for justice or from government?
If this is the case, should a government be telling the Gardai who to arrest and when?

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

Has zero relevance to Ireland today. There are thousands of Irish people in the BA - all of whom are as entitled to an opinion on Ireland's affairs as any other Irish person.

The only racism and bigotry on this issue is from your camp who aligned a poster with crimes committed by the BA 30 years ago.

There are plenty of Americans who served in the National Guard and never set foot in Iraq, does that mean that can't have an opinion on ISIS or any other issue in the ME? Get real.

anyone who joins the BA loses the right to an opinion on what goes on in ireland as they have thrown away their irishness. no racism in "my" camp at all. the crims of the BA 30 years ago are relevant

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

The attitudes and behaviour of protesters is appalling. This simply isn't being condemned from your camp - in fact, many posters seem to relish in a bit of drama in housing estates.

The gardaí aren't there to make sure things don't escalate - these idiots should know how to behave like adults. They're there to ensure those who break the law, and continue doing so despite their presence, are dealt with the way a peaceful, democratic country does - arrest, charge and if necessary, a trial.

and thats what is happening, and that is what the guardai are doing

Timberrrrrrrr

end of the road wrote: »

the BA used violence and slaughter as a way to try crush all who were against the racist bigoted system that was in NI. therefore its not surprising people don't wish to bother with the opinions of x BA members

What about the opinions of Irish citizens?

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

Except they're not. The only thing that will dampen down these protests is the rain we're expected to have over the next few days.

they are working and thats the end of it. those who need to be arrested are arrested