Ireland's "Peaceful Protestors" - Pest Control?

Fukuyama

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't mind paying for water. I don't want to pay the salaries (via levies, taxes, charges or anything else) of a board of directors including bonuses or 'performance related pay increases' for a company that is run for profit.



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-water-will-be-allowed-raise-prices-every-year-29798831.html

Well then you must have issue with Eirgrid, the ESB and Board Gáis.

Performance related pay with transparent public oversight (which there is) is no issue in my book. The fact is, some employees and directors are worth 100k per year. This might not make for a palatable headline in a tabloid, but it takes an experienced person to run a state-wide utility. There are much higher salaries to be had in totally private companies.

I've no doubt that there is "jobs for the boys" going on here. And I'd like to see it routed out ruthlessly. I just don't want to chuck the baby out with the bathwater. Ireland needs a modern water service and I don't want a pack of average employees on 24k a year running the thing.

Fukuyama

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Where's beaner gone?

He's doing his detective work and waterboarding anti-IW protesters.

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

Go ahead, dig up all the quotes where myself and several posters discussed increased garda tactics. It'd add no more weight to your argument.

It's pretty obvious to anyone that reads the thread that calls were made for arrests etc... in cases where the law was broken (Public Order Act). There was video evidence of violence and intimidation.

There were no calls to the effect of an organized garda crack down on protesting. And everyone pretty much agreed that there's no apatite for such actions.

Feel free to fall back on your old faithful argument though.

our boys arrest those who need to be arrested. thats the tactic that has been used to great effect

Fukuyama

end of the road wrote: »

our boys are using the tactics that are known to work without causing any extra problems. they can arrest those who need arresting with no violence. fair play to them. your dreams of smashed crushed bones brains and blood splattered all over the streets will not be realized

Aww....

:pac:

Fr. Ned

Dean0088 wrote: »

Well then you must have issue with Eirgrid, the ESB and Board Gáis.

Performance related pay with transparent public oversight (which there is) is no issue in my book. The fact is, some employees and directors are worth 100k per year. There are much higher salaries to be had in totally private companies.

I've no doubt that there is "jobs for the boys" going on here. And I'd like to see it routed out ruthlessly. I just don't want to chuck the baby out with the bathwater. Ireland needs a modern water service and I don't want a pack of average employees on 24k a year running the thing.

The head of 'Irish Water' is a guy called John Tierney.
Google him and follow the waste of taxpayers money he's overseen from Galway City Council to Fingal County Council (check out the superdump) to Dublin City Council. (Poolbeg anyone)....
This is the calibre of people in Irish Water, career civil servants used to playing fast and loose with taxpayer's money.

Fr. Ned

Dean0088 wrote: »

He's doing his detective work and waterboarding anti-IW protesters.

I doubt it!
More like he's hiding in a corner somewhere with a big red face on him:pac:

KomradeBishop

Dean0088 wrote: »

They can and normally do carry interest. If they don't, then you're digging you own grave as the amount paid back will be less than the amount borrowed due to inflation (I'm aware it's nor actually borrowing money, but effectively, that's what they're used for and as). This is ignoring the basics of modern economics and would be madness for the Irish government to pursue as their main method of finance.

I'm aware they're not open market borrowing. That's what's so dangerous about them in a modern economy.

I understand TANs and the thinking behind them. They're dangerous and the easy way out. They've no place in modern economics.

They aren't paid back, and even though you are aware they aren't borrowing, they aren't analogous to borrowing money either - they are unique, neither directly comparable to bonds, nor directly comparable to money.

You're stating they are dangerous without stating why? The fact that they are not borrowing, and especially not borrowing on the open market, means that there is no interest paid and makes them perfectly sustainable; bond markets would no longer be able to hold government to (almost literal) ransom.

Fukuyama

Fr. Ned wrote: »

The head of 'Irish Water' is a guy called John Tierney.
Google him and follow the waste of taxpayers money he's overseen from Galway City Council to Fingal County Council (check out the superdump) to Dublin City Council. (Poolbeg anyone)....
This is the calibre of people in Irish Water, career civil servants used to playing fast and loose with taxpayer's money.

I'm aware of Tierney and his managing of IW. I've no issue with it. The fact is you need to spend money to set up a huge infrastructure project and utility company.

The issues cited above (poolbeg in particular) are not things that can be said to be the fault of Tierney. I can't find anything he did which led to them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

catallus wrote: »

What!?!

Course you can! :pac:

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

That's what the internet is made for.

Then why should I take him - or anyone else who does it - seriously?

Karl Stein

100,000 at today's protest? Watch the politicians begin to squirm.

KomradeBishop

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Where's beaner gone?

Doxxing and compiling a hit-list of posters who disagree with him, presumably.

end of the road

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Similarly there were people who hoped for a chance to break up any security guards IW may hire.

which one is entitled to do if they lay a finger on someone. private security have the same rights as me and you but thats it, they will never be police, just a bunch of torchies who should be put back patroling factories and shops which is their job

Fr. Ned

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Doxxing and compiling a hit-list of posters who disagree with him, presumably.

Ah Jesus, not another one.....

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

There's not much involved in it. It's entirely un-skilled. As far as I can see, it's pretty repetitive, low-intensity manual labour. They don't even lift the bins like years ago. It's a basic job. I have a pretty basic job too and I'm not asking for a doubling of my pay just because my job isn't all that desirable.

There are graduates in this country who are walking into graduate jobs paying 20,000 (if they're lucky).

Greyhound didn't seem to have much trouble finding people to do it when the strikes were on.

they would have been foreign nationals. those boys are fantastic workers and can turn their hands to anything, hence why they are more employable and have a better chance of getting the jobs. sad reality

Fukuyama

KomradeBishop wrote: »

They aren't paid back, and even though you are aware they aren't borrowing, they aren't analogous to borrowing money either - they are unique, neither directly comparable to bonds, nor directly comparable to money.

You're stating they are dangerous without stating why? The fact that they are not borrowing, and especially not borrowing on the open market, means that there is no interest paid and makes them perfectly sustainable; bond markets would no longer be able to hold government to (almost literal) ransom.

My heads in my hands here.

You're suggesting that Ireland gets interest free expenditure ability, which is actually cheaper than real money because of national inflation, and we base our entire national expenditure policy on this! :eek:

Ireland has a modern economy and uses a normal fiat currency which depends on normal money theory. What you're suggesting might work on paper but ultimately is valueless as it isn't money and has no inherent confidence put within it, as a normal Fiat currency does.

The whole premise of your article is that Ireland remain within the Euro - but then goes on to say that Ireland should abandon traditional "money" when it comes to running the country.

You keep repeating that I don't understand this dark art - enlighten me then.

How in the name of god is something like this sustainable or even workable in the short term?

end of the road

Fr. Ned wrote: »

According to FG, even without water tax, we're going to be below the 3% deficit this year.
There's talk of a giveaway budget, a very FFail way to try and buy votes.
In my opinion there should be a water authority in control of water supply, however, I believe it should be funded from general taxation.
That's the difference between you and me.

The reason for this quango is to get the water provision off the government books so we can look good to our betters in the EU.
It has nothing to do with conservation of water and there won't be any improvement in the infrastructure that wouldn't have happened if it was left in the control of the LA's.
This is Ireland we're talking with, the home of strokes and cute hoorism, not a proper functioning country like you see elsewhere in the developed world.

exactly. lets hope the rest of our public services don't end up being sold off for nothing and us screwed as part of a great privatization scam like britain

Fukuyama

end of the road wrote: »

they would have been foreign nationals. those boys are fantastic workers and can turn their hands to anything, hence why they are more employable and have a better chance of getting the jobs. sad reality

There's a video on the Dublin Says No page. They single out an Irish worjer and intimidate him based on the fact that he's Irish.

Irish people replaced the greyhound workers. And even if there were foreigners working for them I couldn't care less. I've worked with many Irish and foreign in my time. All I've ever looked for in a fellow employee is someone willing to do the job and not bitch and moan the whole day. If some people demand a huge packet while others are willing to work for less (above legal minimum wage), they shouldn't be too surprised to see their jobs go to the other candidates.

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

I think people should pay for what they use.



You seem infatuated by the structure of Irish Water. It's a semi-state, run by Board Gáis who won the contract fair and suqare, based on their experience of running a successful semi-state utility.

Is Board Gáis or the former ESB another super scary quango?



You know this how?



Um, Ireland is the 11th most developed nation on Earth. We're ahead of many of our "betters" in the EU, including the UK.

According to UN Development Index anyways.

a flat rate for all is the only way. means we all pay the same

Lucy and Harry

Sometimes I like to drink a glass of water just to surprise my liver.Now I will be adding up the cash when I drink water and it will ruin the feeling.Like wearing a rubber during sex.

It is ironic we were all throwing buckets of water over ourselves during the summer.Those days are gone lost in the purple haze of summer.

Fukuyama

end of the road wrote: »

a flat rate for all is the only way. means we all pay the same

And how is that fair?

If one person lives in a house, they should pay the same as the house up the road with 8 occupants?

The only fair way is to have people pay the same rate per liter of water. If you want to pay the same water bill as your neighbor, use the same amount of water as him. Same with gas, ESB etc...

catallus

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

Like wearing a rubber during sex.

It's not real sex.

Lucy and Harry

Dean0088 wrote: »

There's a video on the Dublin Says No page. They single out an Irish worjer and intimidate him based on the fact that he's Irish.

Irish people replaced the greyhound workers. And even if there were foreigners working for them I couldn't care less. I've worked with many Irish and foreign in my time. All I've ever looked for in a fellow employee is someone willing to do the job and not bitch and moan the whole day. If some people demand a huge packet while others are willing to work for less (above legal minimum wage), they shouldn't be too surprised to see their jobs go to the other candidates.

and soon your wage ill go down as you are competing with people who will work for less.It is the race to the bottom as unions would say.Soon you will be making a FIFA football for a bag of uncle Bens rice.

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

Economy grew by 5% over the past 12 months.We're the only country in the EU without water charges and implementing them was recommended by the EU, troika and IMF. Asking the EU to fix our problems (again) isn't a way out of this.

There's no need for Ireland to go bowl in hand again to the EU. We're the fastest recovering 'bailout' nation with positive FDI and an improving live register. By 2017 we'll be back on track.

I've never seen a plan presented as an alternative to current government policy. I'd love to read one (genuinely). I'd vote for whoever came out with a workable alternative.

other countries having a water charge isn't a reason for us to have one

Fukuyama

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

and soon your wage ill go down as you are competing with people who will work for less.It is the race to the bottom as unions would say.Soon you will be making a FIFA football for a bag of uncle Bens rice.

Nope. My minimum wage job (which I hope to be out of soon) cannot legally lower my wage any further.

Skilled-jobs have much less salary intensive competition and are also much easier to negotiate industry wide wages as it's difficult to replace workers.

If you're unhappy about wage competition for an unskilled role, then get a skill, trade or qualification,

My name is URL

Dean0088 wrote: »

Well then you must have issue with Eirgrid, the ESB and Board Gáis.

I can choose not to avail of the services of, or engage with ESB and Bord Gáis, and Eirgrid don't expect me to hand over details like my PPS number or other details of people living with me. They also don't send me a bill every year.

Performance related pay with transparent public oversight (which there is) is no issue in my book. The fact is, some employees and directors are worth 100k per year. This might not make for a palatable headline in a tabloid, but it takes an experienced person to run a state-wide utility. There are much higher salaries to be had in totally private companies.

There's also the added element of competition, both for positions and market share, which directly benefits consumers and ensures that the best people get jobs.

KomradeBishop

Dean0088 wrote: »

My heads in my hands here.

You're suggesting that Ireland gets interest free expenditure ability, which is actually cheaper than real money because of national inflation, and we base our entire national expenditure policy on this! :eek:

Ireland has a modern economy and uses a normal fiat currency which depends on normal money theory. What you're suggesting might work on paper but ultimately is valueless as it isn't money and has no inherent confidence put within it, as a normal Fiat currency does.

The whole premise of your article is that Ireland remain within the Euro - but then goes on to say that Ireland should abandon traditional "money" when it comes to running the country.

You keep repeating that I don't understand this dark art - enlighten me then.

How in the name of god is something like this sustainable or even workable in the short term?

How can you admit to not understanding something, and then claim to have enough knowledge of it to say your criticism applies, even after I've had to correct your understanding of it 3-4 times already?

I'm happy to try and explain it more, but only if you are actually interested in hearing it - slipping into panning/"My heads in my hands" type stuff, when I'm taking the time to try and explain it, makes it seem like you aren't actually interested like you claim to be.

Are you interested in learning about it, to understand if it really is possible - or have you just made up your mind that it isn't possible, without wanting to learn about it first?


In any case: Government accepting these notes as payment for taxes, will secure demand for them, and give them value - that's also how it works for fiat money.
I don't advocate abandoning the Euro either.

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

So why follow them?

Water meters are going in and charges are following. There's no need to break the law or use online intimidation. So far, the anti-water meter crowd have done a fine job of ruining their own reputation with the silent majority by uploading their videos.

what silent majority? oh the silent majority who supposibly support gambling debt taxes and charges? don't think thats a majority to be honest. people may be silent because they feel they won't change anything so see no point

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

Thanks for posting those links. I'll have a read through the Parenteau proposal when I get a chance. I'm already a little miffed by it and it certainly seems to reject some economic principles. It's also very anti-Germany. It says that Germany didn't have a deficit within 3% a decade ago, and so is in no position to support the new 3% deficit clause in the stability treaty?! ?

I just think people should pay for usage. Payment through taxes suggests only working people will be paying, and simple maths says they'll have to pay for the water of those not working. This is unfair in my books.

so be it. life is unfair. some will get something we can't.

Fr. Ned

end of the road wrote: »

exactly. lets hope the rest of our public services don't end up being sold off for nothing and us screwed as part of a great privatization scam like britain

LOL, there'd be a change of tone if there was talk of privatising the PS.
I'd love nothing better than to see someone like Michael O'Leary take that over.
Can you imagine the squealing????

Fr. Ned

Dean0088 wrote: »

There's a video on the Dublin Says No page. They single out an Irish worjer and intimidate him based on the fact that he's Irish.

Irish people replaced the greyhound workers. And even if there were foreigners working for them I couldn't care less. I've worked with many Irish and foreign in my time. All I've ever looked for in a fellow employee is someone willing to do the job and not bitch and moan the whole day. If some people demand a huge packet while others are willing to work for less (above legal minimum wage), they shouldn't be too surprised to see their jobs go to the other candidates.

Are you seriously classing €16 an hour as a 'huge pay packet'?
That's €640 a week before tax.
The average in the PS is almost €1,000.