Ireland's "Peaceful Protestors" - Pest Control?

KomradeBishop · 12-10-2014 9:09pm

Dean0088 wrote: »

But effectively it IS debt - it just wouldn't be accounted for as such. More of a general liability. Still balances the same.

It isn't though - it can be put back in circulation forever, if government wants. That's why looking at it like debt, is setting a trap for yourself.

Dean0088 wrote: »

The reason I think about it as debt is because it essentially - expect it has no real benefit for the holders. You're issuing people with a cert that's good for an agreed value at a future date. The only reason it's not called a tax bond is that there's no interest to be paid. As such, there's no benefit to holding them (unless forced, at which point you have no option).

If I want to pay taxes, why not just pay them in money? Sure, if I can secure an effective discount by charging the government interest then I might consider it, but otherwise no.

You mention that TANs would go through the economy. They wouldn't. There's nothing to be gained by buying a TAN from one person. They wouldn't follow the circular flow of money through the economy as a traditional fiat currency does. Nobody would accept TANs as payment either because they accrue no interest so, assuming the economy has inflation which Ireland does, they would be worth less by the time I could cash them in. So the only way I'd accept them is if I could collect more TANs than the current monetary value of the transaction to offset inflation, which would be bad for the person paying in TANs because they'd be paying €120 in 'tax bonds' for €100 worth of product/service.

Dress it up how you want. TANs are a short-term financing option for a government. Not something useful for financing the running of a country for 20 years over billions of euro (the deficit and current repayment schedule).

I did some searching around. Their only use seems to be in the US with local authorities issuing them to fund small, immediate projects which capital will be available for before the TANs come due. Totally different scenario in terms of scale and usage than any EU austerity solution.

The scheme used in US local authorities, is similar but actually not the same - they are issued like bonds, and these TAN's are not.

These TAN's will circulate through the economy, because: Lets say that at the beginning, people in the private sector have difficulty trading TAN's - they will have to offer them at a discount, e.g. a person holding a TAN that is able to extinguish 100 of tax liabilities, may trade it for €95, to get spendable money.

That's a 5% tax break/discount, for anybody who gives €95 for a 100 Euro TAN - companies (especially multinationals here primarily for tax) will suddenly want to get their hands on these for the tax break, increasing demand enormously - and they will be accepted as money, throughout the economy, as businesses will want to get their hands on them, for the tax break.
Over time, supply and demand will reduce this discount to a fairly small amount (probably <1%).

That's the beauty of it - if TAN's fail to trade, they become a massive tax break for anyone who trades money for them, and this (through supply and demand) ensures their success; Rob Parenteau's idea is particularly clever in this regard.

Fr. Ned · 12-10-2014 9:10pm

How come nobody in favour of water tax is liking or commenting on beaner's page? Not even beaner himself.....

end of the road · 12-10-2014 9:10pm

Dean0088 wrote: »

I have never heard of anybody reusing water like that. You're laughable now if " sure use your bath water to flush the jacks" is your national policy on water conservation.

its not laughable at all. it makes complete sense and is a fantastic way of reusing water.

Fr. Ned · 12-10-2014 9:14pm

end of the road wrote: »

its not laughable at all. it makes complete sense and is a fantastic way of reusing water.

'Irish Water' don't want you to conserve or reuse water.
It's a product they're 'selling'.
The more they sell the more they make, the more they make the more valuable the gouging arm of our water infrastructure is when it's privatised.
'Ching ching' for tax non dom and the other FG cronies..

end of the road · 12-10-2014 9:14pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

what's the problem with them being sold off?

because it means greedy private companies proffiting by screwing us taking their proffits home and giving nothing back, all the while stripping and taking what they can while nothing changes service wise.

Pinch Flat wrote: »

No different than how utility companies are traded here and the world over

doesn't matter.

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Why are we so different?

because we see it for what it is, and ideally we'd learn from our mistakes.

Pinch Flat wrote: »

how is the water system to be funded properly?

it certainly won't be via greedy private companies screwing us for everything they can proffiting and taking it all home and giving nothing back.

Fukuyama · 12-10-2014 9:15pm

Fr. Ned wrote: »

How come nobody in favour of water tax is liking or commenting on beaner's page? Not even beaner himself.....

It's not a tax. It's a utility. And nobody in Ireland is saying "Woo hoo! Moar bills!". Most just realise Ireland has to get on track and charge for water as every other nation does.

Pinch Flat · 12-10-2014 9:19pm

Still no coherent model as how our decrepit water system can be improved.

Fr. Ned · 12-10-2014 9:21pm

Dean0088 wrote: »

It's not a tax. It's a utility. And nobody in Ireland is saying "Woo hoo! Moar bills!". Most just realise Ireland has to get on track and charge for water as every other nation does.

Well Dean, there was maybe 100,000 in Dublin yesterday who will not be paying.
There's probably a multiple of that number who didn't go to the march, myself included, who won't be paying.
Let's see how it pans out...it seems this one is the straw that broke the camel's back.
Anyone with half a brain will see that even if FG throw a few goodies on Tuesday that it will be wiped out by the water tax.

Fr. Ned · 12-10-2014 9:23pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Still no coherent model as how our decrepit water system can be improved.

By all means have a centralised water service, I'll pay for it through my taxes, as I have done since I started working, no problem.

Fukuyama · 12-10-2014 9:24pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It isn't though - it can be put back in circulation forever, if government wants. That's why looking at it like debt, is setting a trap for yourself.

The scheme used in US local authorities, is similar but actually not the same - they are issued like bonds, and these TAN's are not.

These TAN's will circulate through the economy, because: Lets say that at the beginning, people in the private sector have difficulty trading TAN's - they will have to offer them at a discount, e.g. a person holding a TAN that is able to extinguish 100 of tax liabilities, may trade it for €95, to get spendable money.

That's a 5% tax break/discount, for anybody who gives €95 for a 100 Euro TAN - companies (especially multinationals here primarily for tax) will suddenly want to get their hands on these for the tax break, increasing demand enormously - and they will be accepted as money, throughout the economy, as businesses will want to get their hands on them, for the tax break.
Over time, supply and demand will reduce this discount to a fairly small amount (probably <1%).

That's the beauty of it - if TAN's fail to trade, they become a massive tax break for anyone who trades money for them, and this (through supply and demand) ensures their success; Rob Parenteau's idea is particularly clever in this regard.

You're ignoring inflation. Lets assume it 5%.

Let's say I want to buy a TAN from a HSE worker. I give her €95 euro for her €100 TAN which is dated for 12 months in advance. Inflation cancels out any savings I make in a year as my €100 tax break in a year is worth less or the same as my €95 euro today. So I don't do it.

It also penalizes workers issued TANS - they're earning less if they want to get paid right away.

Now, Ireland's inflation is WAY below 5%. So, technically, TANS could be used. But that's assuming demand to both buy and sell them for a big enough profit is there. But you're asking people to accept payment in credit a year down the line for a tiny discount. Most companies use their current cash piles to generate income way in excess of a few percent. So, for my company to buy TANS off people, I'd want to be getting a 30-40% discount. Otherwise, my cash is better in the bank or an index fund, thank you very much.

So if people are THAT strapped for cash and are willing to sell their tans for such a huge discount, you're benefiting huge corporation and targeting workers who need cash desperately.

I'm not denying that TANS could work on paper. I'm saying that in the real world they go against a normal persons motivation and nature, which is what modern money theory is based on. Thats why they wouldn't work.

They only way a government could successfully implement them (ignoring the fact that they're only good for short term credit anyways) is if it was a communist state.

foggy_lad · 12-10-2014 9:25pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We all know what the "professional" protesters are like - it;s been expressed many times before - but again you need to be careful to clarify this from genuine peaceful protester.

There are usually more of the professional scumbag protesters at the protests than normal people.

Banjo String wrote: »

I reckon it's a matter of days before the Govt have lost the gards support.

Not at all, the Gardai have the support of the people so will go from strength to strength working to protect us from the scum and dregs that infect these protests.

Banjo String wrote: »

Which part of their behaviour was unnecessary

Reminding the gards of their oath?

All their behaviour is repulsive, they are nothing but villainous thugs who have taken to singling out individual Gardai and getting very personal with their insults and bile.

generalmental wrote: »

Im from Dublin but i have living down the country for a while now, but the photos i have on my phone have pictures of bushes in front of Clerys and what looks like all up and down the street

Those are the trees which are growing along that side of O'Connell street which have had the tops shaped to make them look pretty when pictured from above.

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Do any of this mob work or are we supporting them with state handouts?

Mark Egan of Dublin Says No doesn't work apparrently
http://www.thejournal.ie/terence-flanagan-water-meters-protest-dole-cut-1542257-Jun2014/

Fr. Ned wrote: »

The moan burton claimed in the Dail, immediately after her now infamous camera phones/hollywood remark, that it was protesters who caused the privatisation of refuse collection in this country.

Yes, it was the actual workers who were responsible for the privatisation of their own industry because they would not accept any kind of cuts or rationalisation!

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I see this posted in the water thread, great lads them protesters :rolleyes:

Utter scumbags and thugs the lot of them!!

Beaner1 wrote: »

Plenty of fun to come. I will be picking a particular active water protestor every week and doing an expose on them. Their employment history, alias accounts, facebook analytics etc.

send me on a link to the page:)

Timberrrrrrrr · 12-10-2014 9:25pm

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Well Dean, there was maybe 100,000 in Dublin yesterday who will not be paying.
There's probably a multiple who didn't go to the march, myself included, who won't be paying.
Let's see how it pans out...it seems this one is the straw that broke the camel's back.
Anyone with half a brain will see that even if FG throw a few goodies on Tuesday that it will be wiped out by the water tax.

The 50'000 at yesterdays protest were protesting against the tax there is no proof that they all are refusing to pay.

Fukuyama · 12-10-2014 9:26pm

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Well Dean, there was maybe 100,000 in Dublin yesterday who will not be paying.
There's probably a multiple who didn't go to the march, myself included, who won't be paying.
Let's see how it pans out...it seems this one is the straw that broke the camel's back.
Anyone with half a brain will see that even if FG throw a few goodies on Tuesday that it will be wiped out by the water tax.

If FG get voted out and PbP get voted in, maybe some of their economic theories will get put to the test and we'll see how Ireland will perform. I give it two, maybe three weeks before the country implodes. I have no issue with protests or people electing their chosen representatives. But I won't be silences from voicing my own.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-10-2014 9:28pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are usually more of the professional scumbag protesters at the protests than normal people.

Not at all, the Gardai have the support of the people so will go from strength to strength working to protect us from the scum and dregs that infect these protests.

All their behaviour is repulsive, they are nothing but villainous thugs who have taken to singling out individual Gardai and getting very personal with their insults and bile.

Those are the trees which are growing along that side of O'Connell street which have had the tops shaped to make them look pretty when pictured from above.

Mark Egan of Dublin Says No doesn't work apparrently
http://www.thejournal.ie/terence-flanagan-water-meters-protest-dole-cut-1542257-Jun2014/

Yes, it was the actual workers who were responsible for the privatisation of their own industry because they would not accept any kind of cuts or rationalisation!

Utter scumbags and thugs the lot of them!!

send me on a link to the page:)

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions here, I can't help but notice. The bits in bold specifcially.

Fr. Ned · 12-10-2014 9:28pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are usually more of the professional scumbag protesters at the protests than normal people.

Not at all, the Gardai have the support of the people so will go from strength to strength working to protect us from the scum and dregs that infect these protests.

All their behaviour is repulsive, they are nothing but villainous thugs who have taken to singling out individual Gardai and getting very personal with their insults and bile.

Those are the trees which are growing along that side of O'Connell street which have had the tops shaped to make them look pretty when pictured from above.

Mark Egan of Dublin Says No doesn't work apparrently
http://www.thejournal.ie/terence-flanagan-water-meters-protest-dole-cut-1542257-Jun2014/

Yes, it was the actual workers who were responsible for the privatisation of their own industry because they would not accept any kind of cuts or rationalisation!

Utter scumbags and thugs the lot of them!!

send me on a link to the page:)

beaners page is 'workers for water charges', you'll be the first to 'like' it.

Streetwalker · 12-10-2014 9:29pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

The 50'000 at yesterdays protest were protesting against the tax there is no proof that they all are refusing to pay.

The 100k plus at yesterdays protest is only the tip of the iceberg. I'd say we are looking at a 25-30% non compliance rate country wide leading to the fall of this government.

Fukuyama · 12-10-2014 9:31pm

Streetwalker wrote: »

The 100k plus at yesterdays protest is only the tip of the iceberg. I'd say we are looking at a 25-30% non compliance rate country wide leading to the fall of this government.

Mmmm. That seems like a very well thought out estimation. I'm sure it's based on research and facts, just like the rest of the anti-IW argument.

Timberrrrrrrr · 12-10-2014 9:32pm

Streetwalker wrote: »

The 100k plus at yesterdays protest is only the tip of the iceberg. I'd say we are looking at a 25-30% non compliance rate country wide leading to the fall of this government.

Have yet to see a single shred of credible evidence for any of the above.

Streetwalker · 12-10-2014 9:33pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Have yet to see a single shred of credible evidence for any of the above.

Have you got evidence to the contrary?

Fr. Ned · 12-10-2014 9:34pm

Breaking News......

beaner's page got a second like.

In other news, nobody has the balls to leave a comment on it announcing their support of water taxes.

Little CuChulainn · 12-10-2014 9:34pm

Fr. Ned wrote: »

How come nobody in favour of water tax is liking or commenting on beaner's page? Not even beaner himself.....

Why are you so obsessed with Beaner?

Timberrrrrrrr · 12-10-2014 9:34pm

Streetwalker wrote: »

Have you got evidence to the contrary?

I'm not the one making the claim!

Fr. Ned · 12-10-2014 9:35pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Why are you so obsessed with Beaner?

Have you seen his FB page?
It's called 'workers for water charges'.
In it he states the following,

"This page is for the silent majority in Ireland. Those people that do their best to get on with their lives through hard work.
Our progressive taxes are galling enough for any PAYE worker when we see the money ending up in the hands of the welfare class"

Little CuChulainn · 12-10-2014 9:37pm

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Have you seen his FB page?

No, I don't care about his page.

Streetwalker · 12-10-2014 9:37pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'm not the one making the claim!

What claim? I was at the protest there where 100k easy at it.

Fr. Ned · 12-10-2014 9:38pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

No, I don't care about his page.

Well then, why are you so obsessed with me?

Little CuChulainn · 12-10-2014 9:39pm

Streetwalker wrote: »

What claim? I was at the protest there where 100k easy at it.

What method did you use to count them?

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Well then, why are you so obsessed about me?

Because you insist on commenting non-stop with nothing of value. It's hard to avoid you.

Timberrrrrrrr · 12-10-2014 9:40pm

Streetwalker wrote: »

What claim? I was at the protest there where 100k easy at it.

So you can post credible evidence or you are just guessing as to how many were there.

foggy_lad · 12-10-2014 9:42pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions here, I can't help but notice. The bits in bold specifcially.

Look through the Dublin Says No youtube videos and you will see the numbers of thugs at these protests, I would bet there would be no protests if not for these thugs intimidating locals to get them out. Their language is disgusting and they obviously have no respect for the Gardai or anyone doing a job.

Fr. Ned wrote: »

beaners page is 'workers for water charges', you'll be the first to 'like' it.

nope

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Breaking News......

beaner's page got a second like.

In other news, nobody has the balls to leave a comment on it announcing their support of water taxes.

That was me. I support the water charges but think there should be much higher allowances for individuals.

Fr. Ned · 12-10-2014 9:44pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

That was me. I support the water charges but think there should be much higher allowances for individuals.

Do you see the way the page sets out the reasons for having water charges in a very rational way and why workers should support them?

Ireland's "Peaceful Protestors" - Pest Control?

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