Ireland's "Peaceful Protestors" - Pest Control?

Streetwalker

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So you can post credible evidence or you are just guessing as to how many were there.

I did a head count.

Timberrrrrrrr

Streetwalker wrote: »

I did a head count.

So that's a no?


No surprise there then.

Fr. Ned

foggy_lad wrote: »

Look through the Dublin Says No youtube videos and you will see the numbers of thugs at these protests, I would bet there would be no protests if not for these thugs intimidating locals to get them out.

Do you think that the 100,000 or so who were on the march yesterday were from Dublin Says No or whatever it's called?

Fr. Ned

Ooops, the FB page is back to having one like.
Hardly a complete success this one, is it?

end of the road

Dean0088 wrote: »

Ireland has to get on track and charge for water as every other nation does.

they don't. just because every other nation does something doesn't mean we have to.

Streetwalker

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So that's a no?


No surprise there then.

Stupid question, stupid answer.

foggy_lad

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Do you think that the 100,000 or so who were on the march yesterday were from Dublin Says No or whatever it's called?

That march was not an anti water meter march it was just hi-jacked by those Dublin says no people who are now claiming so many people are against water meters.

Fr. Ned

foggy_lad wrote: »

That march was not an anti water meter march it was just hi-jacked by those Dublin says no people who are now claiming so many people are against water meters.

That's just plain deluded.

Streetwalker

Dean0088 wrote: »

It's not a tax. It's a utility. And nobody in Ireland is saying "Woo hoo! Moar bills!". Most just realise Ireland has to get on track and charge for water as every other nation does.

Okay im in as soon as we abolish the illegal VRT on cars and oh also USC nobody other nation has that. You in?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

foggy_lad wrote: »

Look through the Dublin Says No youtube videos and you will see the numbers of thugs at these protests, I would bet there would be no protests if not for these thugs intimidating locals to get them out. Their language is disgusting and they obviously have no respect for the Gardai or anyone doing a job.

Youtube? As a credible source? can highlight at least 15,000 "thugs"?

This idea that every protest is engineered by the "thugs" is a massive fallacy. It implies that everyone else just rolls over and accepts whatever decisions the governemtn makes and that theer is no outcry.

The evidence points to the contrary/ The penstioners protested. The farmers protested. And they weren't made of career protesters.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes, it was the actual workers who were responsible for the privatisation of their own industry because they would not accept any kind of cuts or rationalisation!

it wasn't. it was political ideals and jobs/money for cronies. the workers were willing to except such things, however they wouldn't take slave labour type conditions though. strangely enough the greedy private companies didn't deliver the reasons for privatization as they never do. just large proffits for the shareholders instead of the state while delivering nothing back. privatization is only ever done for political reasons never you and me no matter how its twisted to look like it is, but for friends and cronies of the government

Timberrrrrrrr

Streetwalker wrote: »

Stupid question, stupid answer.

From the guy who said

Streetwalker wrote: »

I did a head count.

:rolleyes:

Fr. Ned

Streetwalker wrote: »

Okay im in as soon as we abolish the illegal VRT on cars and oh also USC nobody other nation has that. You in?

Can we get free GP care for all too?
And maybe some free schoolbooks for our kids like they have in Northern Ireland?
I have a long list of things people in other countries people get for their, lower, taxes than we do.

Fukuyama

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Youtube? As a credible source? can highlight at least 15,000 "thugs"?

This idea that every protest is engineered by the "thugs" is a massive fallacy. It implies that everyone else just rolls over and accepts whatever decisions the governemtn makes and that theer is no outcry.

The evidence points to the contrary/ The penstioners protested. The farmers protested. And they weren't made of career protesters.

The Dublin Says No youtube page is literally a massive collection of videos featuring thugs and attempts to intimidate workers.

The group is quite militant.

The page is a curated by the group themselves. It's a relevant internet source to quote as a reference for the actual group, because it's THEIR page.

Fr. Ned

Dean0088 wrote: »

The Dublin Says No youtube page is literally a massive collection of videos featuring thugs and attempts to intimidate workers.

The group is quite militant.

The page is a curated by the group themselves. It's a relevant internet source to quote as a reference for the actual group, because it's THEIR page.

They have a FB page too.
Mind you, their contact information is there, unlike that 'Workers for water charges' page where the contact information is a link to FG/'labour' forming a government
Oh yea, they have almost 10,000 likes opposed to 1 for that other page.

Beaner1

Fr. Ned wrote: »

They have a FB page too.
Mind you, their contact information is there, unlike that 'Workers for water charges' page where the contact information is a link to FG/'labour' forming a government
Oh yea, they have almost 10,000 likes opposed to 1 for that other page.

The admins are also hopelessly unemployed unlike me.

Fr. Ned

Beaner1 wrote: »

The admins are also hopelessly unemployed unlike me.

Will you be organising a march in favour of the water charges?

KomradeBishop

Dean0088 wrote: »

You're ignoring inflation. Lets assume it 5%.

Let's say I want to buy a TAN from a HSE worker. I give her €95 euro for her €100 TAN which is dated for 12 months in advance. Inflation cancels out any savings I make in a year as my €100 tax break in a year is worth less or the same as my €95 euro today. So I don't do it.

It also penalizes workers issued TANS - they're earning less if they want to get paid right away.

Now, Ireland's inflation is WAY below 5%. So, technically, TANS could be used. But that's assuming demand to both buy and sell them for a big enough profit is there. But you're asking people to accept payment in credit a year down the line for a tiny discount. Most companies use their current cash piles to generate income way in excess of a few percent. So, for my company to buy TANS off people, I'd want to be getting a 30-40% discount. Otherwise, my cash is better in the bank or an index fund, thank you very much.

So if people are THAT strapped for cash and are willing to sell their tans for such a huge discount, you're benefiting huge corporation and targeting workers who need cash desperately.

I'm not denying that TANS could work on paper. I'm saying that in the real world they go against a normal persons motivation and nature, which is what modern money theory is based on. Thats why they wouldn't work.

They only way a government could successfully implement them (ignoring the fact that they're only good for short term credit anyways) is if it was a communist state.

I'm not ignoring inflation, you've cancelled out your own argument there, by pointing out that we have low inflation - we are actually at risk of deflation at the moment.

Companies pay taxes constantly throughout the year - they won't be waiting 12 months before using the TAN's, so inflation is not a problem for them at all, because they wont be holding onto the TAN's.
They will in fact have more money for investing, because they would spend less Euro on taxes, and more TAN's on taxes - even getting extra Euro from the TAN discount - TAN's actually free up more Euro, for use elsewhere.

So the discount on traded TAN's can safely settle at <5%, and likely <1%, because companies will still have high demand for them.


They don't really go against anyones nature - businesses will profit off of them due to the discount tax break, extra Euro that are available, and due to increase in aggregate-demand/economic-activity, and workers can get a massive pay boost from TAN's, which they can use to actually buy more stuff in the economy, enjoying increased purchasing power.

That's win-win for all - it would succeed purely based on Capitalist motives, as it would be in everyones self-interest.

Banjo String

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Why are you so obsessed with Beaner?

Didn't cheech and chong write a song about him?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Beaner1 wrote: »

The admins are also hopelessly unemployed unlike me.

No, they're a bunch of people who got up off their asses and expressed their displeasure about things. Unlike you.

Dean0088 wrote: »

The Dublin Says No youtube page is literally a massive collection of videos featuring thugs and attempts to intimidate workers.

The group is quite militant.

The page is a curated by the group themselves. It's a relevant internet source to quote as a reference for the actual group, because it's THEIR page.

While probably true, this doesn't challenge the point that I beleive the following statements are grossly inaccurate (and, fiurthermore, a point which remains uncontested by the poster)

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are usually more of the professional scumbag protesters at the protests than normal people.


All their behaviour is repulsive, they are nothing but villainous thugs who have taken to singling out individual Gardai and getting very personal with their insults and bile.

Utter scumbags and thugs the lot of them!!

foggy_lad

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No, they're a bunch of people who got up off their asses and expressed their displeasure about things. Unlike you.





While probably true, this doesn't challenge the point that I beleive the following statements are grossly inaccurate (and, fiurthermore, a point which remains uncontested by the poster)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X19Vq8TF4Hs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LquXqQ7YQ2s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTALBsv9Nk0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlH6yKXBGHo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJSPzr_Vuhc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePdNDEIWdR0

The actions of the protestors in these videos are the actions of scum and wasters and it gets worse! In one of the videos a protestor loses it because the big bold Gardai made him spill his coffee all down his leg! what kind of Fcuk-wit brings hot coffee in a paper cup to a protest?


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92451347&postcount=2950

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92436839&postcount=2543

Fukuyama

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

While probably true, this doesn't challenge the point that I beleive the following statements are grossly inaccurate (and, fiurthermore, a point which remains uncontested by the poster)

See post above for video evidence.

The march on saturday diluted these elements and I'm glad it did - it was a peaceful, successful march.

My OP concerns residential protest groups causing trouble day in, day out in housing estates. There is an abundance of video evidence of their carry-on. It's all right there in this thread and on their social media pages.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

foggy_lad wrote: »

The actions of the protestors in these videos are the actions of scum and wasters and it gets worse! In one of the videos a protestor loses it because the big bold Gardai made him spill his coffee all down his leg! what kind of Fcuk-wit brings hot coffee in a paper cup to a protest?


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92451347&postcount=2950

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92436839&postcount=2543

Dean0088 wrote: »

See post above for video evidence.

The march on saturday diluted these elements and I'm glad it did - it was a peaceful, successful march.

My OP concerns residential protest groups causing trouble day in, day out in housing estates. There is an abundance of video evidence of their carry-on. It's all right there in this thread and on their social media pages.

This is either a strawman arguemnt, or I haven't made my point clear, apologies.

I was disputing the point made that MOST OF the progestors were career protestors who show up at everything. I never said they were all peaceful - I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Nor did I say they were all genuine water-charges protesters - again, I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

Foggy - you said "The actions of the protestors in these videos are the actions of scum and wasters" and I agree with you. But that's all it is -the protesters in THESE videos. You need to do more if you intend to back up your claim of "most of".

Dean - you said "The Dublin Says No youtube page is literally a massive collection of videos featuring thugs and attempts to intimidate workers"; which I said was "probably true". So proving a point I've already agreed with is a bit pointless.

In conclusion: it's very easy to put up 6 or 7 youtube clips and then exaggerate them to make it look like the entire march was violent and anti-authoritatian - the media do this all the time - but are you seriously tell me that this was the case for the entire 30,000 or 100,000 person march?

Fr. Ned

The protests are obviously having the desired effect.

http://www.independent.ie/business/budget/new-relief-measures-in-budget-to-cut-water-bills-by-up-to-100-30658686.html

Keep up the good work everybody, together we can defeat this unjust tax/charge.

BoJack Horseman

One of the main bugbears of IW is the 'paying twice' argument.

Had the gov just issued a tax credit covering this from day1 it would have smoothed things over for them no end.

€100 will be helpful.
Leaving €178 for the year.

Now if they would just abolish the TV lisence we'd be doing great.

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Now if they would just abolish the TV lisence we'd be doing great.

Its been replaced by the broadcasting charge,

Wonder if there will be a tax increase to pay for the expansion of the household benifits package ,
Which also includes free tv licence and money off utilities

micosoft

coolemon wrote: »

A good article looking at the discourse around the water meter protests. -

Irish Water Protests: The View from Beijing


http://hiredknaves.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/irish-water-protests-the-view-from-beijing/

Pretty awful article actually. I left a response but of course, he/she has to approve my freedom of speech :rolleyes:. In any case I'll stick it here:

I lost you when you compared the undemocratic system of Hong Kong where the chief executive must be cleared by the Government in Beijing versus the democratically elected Government in Ireland. Your entire thesis falls apart at that hurdle. The protesters in Hong Kong are protesting BECAUSE they do not have this avenue. That is the point of their protest. Aside from the obvious lessens in civility totally lost on our "protesters".

In any case, there are limits to everything in this life. Free speech does not mean you can shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. Similarly the right to protest does not give you the right to impede on the freedom to do your lawful work or your freedom to receive a service. Put it another way, would you be happy with protesters outside an abortion clinic jostling women as they went in?

Fukuyama

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

This is either a strawman arguemnt, or I haven't made my point clear, apologies.

I was disputing the point made that MOST OF the progestors were career protestors who show up at everything. I never said they were all peaceful - I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Nor did I say they were all genuine water-charges protesters - again, I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

Foggy - you said "The actions of the protestors in these videos are the actions of scum and wasters" and I agree with you. But that's all it is -the protesters in THESE videos. You need to do more if you intend to back up your claim of "most of".

Dean - you said "The Dublin Says No youtube page is literally a massive collection of videos featuring thugs and attempts to intimidate workers"; which I said was "probably true". So proving a point I've already agreed with is a bit pointless.

In conclusion: it's very easy to put up 6 or 7 youtube clips and then exaggerate them to make it look like the entire march was violent and anti-authoritatian - the media do this all the time - but are you seriously tell me that this was the case for the entire 30,000 or 100,000 person march?

As I've said multiple times, Saturdays march passed off without a hitch. Fair play to everyone who attended, even though I don't support it.

We're not talking about a few cherrypicked video clips. Look at their various YouTube pages - EVERY SINGLE VIDEO contains intimidating content from IW protests to Greyhound protests. EVERY VIDEO. They have uploaded in excess of 100 videos. My main issue was a traveling circus of these "protesters" in housing estates in Dublin, using illegal tactics, violence and intimidation (All of which is seen in the videos, multiple times per video).

The other thread about the horses being confiscated was also uploaded from an anti-IW youtube account.

I'm not cherrypicking here. I'm making fairly obvious observation of a trend visible in virtually every piece of content these groups put out on social media whether it's Facebook or YouTube,

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dean0088 wrote: »

As I've said multiple times, Saturdays march passed off without a hitch. Fair play to everyone who attended, even though I don't support it.

We seem to be in agreement, then? I was arguing against foggy, who said that the march was mostly toruble-making career protesters.

Whatever about previous incidents which I'm not denying - in fact I agree with most people here that they should be prosecuted.

If you can't protest against a tax peacefully, then don't protest at all.

Timberrrrrrrr

Are Ireland's hero's back out this morning bullying, intimidating and preventing taxpayers from going about their work day or are they all taking a day off? They must be wrecked after all the exercise they got on Saturday.