2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP

Permabear

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Manach

Well, at least we know that at least the DNC servers are secure and have the proper privacy protections.

Black Swan

Permabear wrote: »

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An interesting point you make indeed Permabear, but I am uncertain how to interpret it.

Trump is the most vocal and controversial candidate running for 2016 president, and being a skilled celebrity entertainer, knows how to draw news media attention for free, and more frequently than almost all the Democrat and Republican candidates combined. So in fairness Trump gets more attention in this US Politics [prefix] than other candidates regardless of his party affiliation; and the controversial, frequently nonsensical, sometimes bigoted things that comes out of his mouth draws him more frequent criticism than the other candidates both on boards and across the pond. In "King Fish" Huey Long fashion, Trump does this intentionally (Donald Trump, The Art of the Deal, 1987) knowing that good news is the best news, bad news is 2nd best, and no news is bad news for a politician per Huey Long (and in agreement with comments made in Trump's book regarding the "press").

Also in fairness, but certainly not to the same degree as big mouth entertainer Trump today, I can remember when "Hilliary" Clinton was getting almost as much attention as Trump regarding Benghazi and emails in US Politics [prefix] up until about September 2015, both of which are no longer "news," and there is no such thing as "olds" in journalism, provided you are not trying to resurrect something from archives. And Trump will continue to open his mouth and bluster controversial and outrageous things per his 1987 book regarding press manipulation, while Hillary Clinton's Benghazi and emails have died an old news death and are no longer interesting to both boards members and across the pond Americans.

Brian?

Permabear wrote: »

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Or it could be because it's a Saturday and Sunday and there's feck all activity here

Overheal

Permabear wrote: »

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Well, given the US Politics forum is closed and its taken me a minute to acclimate to the new status (no announcement threads?!) and I've been willfully logged off The Entire Internet for several days leading up to the time I could watch The Force Awakens so that nobody seeing it early could spoil a god damn thing for me - and the fact that my quietness of late has largely been due to being more interested in responding to the mass willful ignorance seen in public facebook pages like MediaITE, - I just haven't been around that much And the weekend before Christmas no less.

Fact is I got an email from the Sanders campaign to sign a petition asking for a level playing field, ie. the threat to sue the DNC for access to those records. I don't know the full story other than to say a staffer was fired and those records were available for them to view. It plays more into the DNC wanting a Hillary Coronation than it does Sanders trying to do anything off-color.

Additionally, I find Trump's standard of deceitfulness more important to raise gumption with than anything Cruz, Rubio, Sanders, or Clinton might be credited with because at least of those candidates the truth will percolate out especially in the case of Clinton who is still under investigation by the FBI. Trump meanwhile continues to lie - pathologically - and continues to use rhetorical nonsense in his normal pattern of speech. For instance, back in 2011 he sounded very much the same. He wasn't even running and still talking about 'his poll numbers'. He claimed he sent investigators to Hawaii and "they can't believe what they are finding" and "I will be revealing some very interesting things [...] you will be very surprised" yet no bombshells ever hit. Every time he is challenged about his factual errors he bites back with absurd attacks of media bias and/or strawman support that is impossible to verify (eg. "my muslim friends call me and support [banning muslims from the US]", "thousands of people are writing and calling in saying they saw [thousands and thousands of people celebrating the WTC collapse in New Jersey]"

A look back to Trump 2011 http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/21/trump-says-hell-reveal-interesting-things-on-obama/

During the interview with CNN, Trump also maintained he is worth considerably more than the $2.7 billion Forbes Magazine has estimated, and says he will reveal the real number if he decides to run for president.

I can tell you that's a very low number," Trump said of the Forbes estimate. "It's much more than that. And if I decide to run, which I very well may surprise people, but if I decide to run, I will give a net worth statement essentially. As you know, we have to fill out very detailed forms for the federal government. And I think people will be extremely impressed."

No such disclosures have occured. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/9/18/1422527/-When-is-Donald-Trump-going-to-release-his-absolutely-unbelievable-birther-investigation

Trump has declined to make his tax filings public and his net worth cannot be verified. He has equally refused requests to disclose his own birth certificate having been a once ardent champion of the birther movement (based on falsehoods): http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/07/trump-sends-investigators-to-hawaii-to-look-into-obama/

You are not allowed to be a president if you're not born in this country

Which is false:

The truth is a lot more complex: http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2013/10/is-ted-cruz-a-natural-born-citizen-eligible-to-serve-as-president/

The fact that Trump will continue to spout lies in the face of fact-checking is troubling and reminds me of a time when we were pathologically told a dictator had a collection of WMDs that was later proven to be almost entirely untrue. If such a con is elected as President of the United States such lies have a frightening habit of becoming 'fact' and few in the public sphere will be able to fact-check such a psychopath (mods - I say that with evidence) who is intrinsically integrated into the most classified secrets on the planet.

Fr Tod Umptious

I'm with Permabear on this one.

Had the "hacking" been done by anyone from the GOP, GOP on GO P hacking included, this place would be a wash with posts, regardless of politics fourm re-design.

And come to think of it it has got very little coverage in the main stream media here too.

20Cent

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'm with Permabear on this one.

Had the "hacking" been done by anyone from the GOP, GOP on GO P hacking included, this place would be a wash with posts, regardless of politics fourm re-design.

And come to think of it it has got very little coverage in the main stream media here too.

Maybe it's because it's not such a big deal rather than a conspiracy?

GOP have cried wolf so often and tried to make big issues out of things that aren't.

Permabear

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The Randy Riverbeast

Spying on info he's not meant to see? Sounds perfect for the president of the U.S.

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Em who gets their news about US politics from the Irish media these days, no one thats who.

The "terrorist fistbump".
The whole birther thing.
Obama is a socialist.
Obama wants to take yer gaaaans.
Obamacare will destroy America.
Benghazi.
Hillary Clintons emails thing.

Loads more crying wolf over small issues this is no different.

Thargor

Permabear wrote: »

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Ummm, pretty simple answer is that the Democrats tend not to field candidates that are racist, anti-science, anti-intellectual, fundamentalist religious loons, if they did then there would be threads happily discussing and laughing at them just as much as the republicans.

Manach

Or in other words believe utterly the liberal narrative that any candidates opposing their chosen ones are deserving of the usual 2 minute hate.

K-9

Sorry about no announcement for the forum change, we did publicise it in the main forum and Irish Economy, so our fault there, never crossed our minds. Politics general and the cafe were quiet over the weekend, but I'd agree with Pb to an extent. Having said that, the Clinton email thing is still brought up now and again here and I'm sure Sanders will get stick for this.

I suppose Sanders isn't the front running candidate and realistically isn't going to get the nomination whereas the Trump steam train seems to keep gathering momentum.

Amerika

RobertKK wrote: »

Just read some quotes from the debate as I have better things to do than watch Hillary Clinton talking more rubbish. She accused Donald Trump as being the best recruiter for ISIS, and that they will be showing videos of him talking about not allowing muslims into the US.
She fails to mention, she was one of the people who helped become a reality by supporting most strongly the invasion of Iraq, and the also the wanting the downfall of Assad, arming rebels whom they had no idea who they really were.

I believe the majority of the media has rated Clinton' claim, that ISIS is showing videos of him for recruitment, at... 'LIAR, LIAR, PANTSUIT ON FIRE!'

Amerika

Black Swan wrote: »

An interesting point you make indeed Permabear, but I am uncertain how to interpret it.

Trump is the most vocal and controversial candidate running for 2016 president, and being a skilled celebrity entertainer, knows how to draw news media attention for free, and more frequently than almost all the Democrat and Republican candidates combined. So in fairness Trump gets more attention in this US Politics [prefix] than other candidates regardless of his party affiliation; and the controversial, frequently nonsensical, sometimes bigoted things that comes out of his mouth draws him more frequent criticism than the other candidates both on boards and across the pond. In "King Fish" Huey Long fashion, Trump does this intentionally (Donald Trump, The Art of the Deal, 1987) knowing that good news is the best news, bad news is 2nd best, and no news is bad news for a politician per Huey Long (and in agreement with comments made in Trump's book regarding the "press").

Also in fairness, but certainly not to the same degree as big mouth entertainer Trump today, I can remember when "Hilliary" Clinton was getting almost as much attention as Trump regarding Benghazi and emails in US Politics [prefix] up until about September 2015, both of which are no longer "news," and there is no such thing as "olds" in journalism, provided you are not trying to resurrect something from archives. And Trump will continue to open his mouth and bluster controversial and outrageous things per his 1987 book regarding press manipulation, while Hillary Clinton's Benghazi and emails have died an old news death and are no longer interesting to both boards members and across the pond Americans.

Oh, all those issues which hang over Clinton's head, plus more like her shakedown of people, businesses and countries into donating to her campaign "charity," will come out big time in the general election.

Thargor

Manach wrote: »

Or in other words believe utterly the liberal narrative that any candidates opposing their chosen ones are deserving of the usual 2 minute hate.

Climate change deniers and anyone who thinks the seperation of church and state is a bad thing plus anyone who refuses to do anything about the sale of assault rifles to anyone who wants them aren't exactly deserving of love and respect. Throw in tax cuts for the rich at any cost and its not looking good. As said, if the Democrats were fielding anyone as blatant as the Republicans in these issues they'd be getting ridiculed just as much.

Overheal

Permabear wrote: »

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Unless you can produce an example where we have a Republican parallel of the point you are making, that's a strawman argument.


To expand on what I said last night: after the data infringement the DNC shut the Sanders camp out of not only Hillary's voter lists, but Sanders' own voter lists. That's what he's suing the DNC about, not getting access to Hilalry's lists but back to his own lists which they have given him no ETR for at last report I saw.

K-9 wrote:

Sorry about no announcement for the forum change, we did publicise it in the main forum and Irish Economy, so our fault there, never crossed our minds. Politics general and the cafe were quiet over the weekend, but I'd agree with Pb to an extent. Having said that, the Clinton email thing is still brought up now and again here and I'm sure Sanders will get stick for this.

I'd recommend a post that includes copy-pasted unsubscribe from forum links for the now deceased forums, per this Help Desk assist: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96865092

JPNelsforearm

Thargor wrote: »

Climate change deniers and anyone who thinks the seperation of church and state is a bad thing plus anyone who refuses to do anything about the sale of assault rifles to anyone who wants them aren't exactly deserving of love and respect. Throw in tax cuts for the rich at any cost and its not looking good. As said, if the Democrats were fielding anyone as blatant as the Republicans in these issues they'd be getting ridiculed just as much.

"Climate change" deniers and "assault rifle" owners are worthy of the two minutes of hate in your opinion. Two positions that have zero impact on another persons way of life, deserve to be legislated against and painted as the "big evil" in US society, makes sense......what a joke.

And the tax cuts for the rich thing applies to both parties equally, both parties are parties of the rich, one just is in favour of more government largesse in the form of a welfare incentive for third worlders

Permabear

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Thargor

I dont know why you're pretending you dont understand this, the Republicans are fielding international embarrassments and this provides entertainment fodder for the news cycles therefore they get many times more coverage and ridicule than any democratic candidate. The leader in the Republican race has called for the banning of all Muslims traveling to America, this is unprecedented international news, if Clinton or Sanders did the same there'd be just as much controversy.

Permabear

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Thargor

A vendor supplying IT security messed up and everyone in the DNC was able to take a look at each others files for a period of time, not exactly a major hacking conspiracy. He acknowledged himself that it was wrong and apologized on the stage at the debate and Clintons exact words were: “We should move on. Because I don’t think the American people are all that interested in this.” So the answer to your question is nobody cares. Thats the reason it doesn't get 10% of the coverage every time Trump or Carson open their mouths, to compare it to the Republican omnishambles and imply it should get a fraction of the coverage that statements like barring an entire religion from entering the US gets is laughable.

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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So what is the big deal then?
Sanders team got access to Clintons email list? That's a big issue?

Trump wants to deport millions of people, build a giant wall and ban Muslims from the US. Makes this look child's play.

Permabear

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Overheal

Permabear you're creating a smokescreen of your own. Demonstrate a similar situation in which the forum created a response you feel is partisan/unfair against a republican doing the same thing.

"deflection/denial/red herring" yourself.

Back to the point. The Sanders campaign's national data director unethically and deliberately breached and tried to steal a rival candidate's sensitive voter data. Then the campaign actually tried to raise money off the DNC's response, shooting off a fundraising email accusing it of trying to "undermine" the Sanders campaign. The email naturally did not mention that a senior staffer had unethically hacked into valuable and sensitive voter data.

Here's that email. I donated $10 myself, in addition to my monthly recurring donation.

Here's the truth: from the first day of this campaign, our success has shocked many of the Democratic Party Establishment who would have preferred a coronation over a competitive campaign.

And the reality is that the huge turnouts that we've had at our meetings, our strong fundraising, our volunteer base, and quick rise in the polls have caused the Democratic National Committee to place its thumb on the scales in support of Hillary Clinton's campaign. You see that fact evidenced in their decision to bury he Democratic debates on weekends during nationally televised football games. It's more or less an open secret.

This week, due to a fault in their own technology platforms, the DNC took unprecedented steps to take away our access to data accumulated through tens of thousands of voter contacts made by our volunteers -- supporters like you who power our political revolution. In essence, the Democratic Establishment is effectively shutting down our ability to access the information we need for field campaigns and volunteer activities just six weeks before the Iowa Caucuses. And they haven't told us when they will turn it back on.

In other words, the leadership of the Democratic National Committee is attempting to undermine our insurgent campaign. This is not acceptable. We can and must respond.

Sign our petition telling the Democratic National Committee -- in no uncertain terms -- that you expect a level playing field in this primary campaign. This is important.

That the Democratic Party would deny our staff and volunteers access to data needed to contact voters in Iowa and New Hampshire on the day we reached two million individual contributions and received two of our most prominent endorsements is disconcerting.

We hope they'll do the right thing for us, and for our supporters, quickly. But so far they haven't listened to our campaign. But I am hopeful they'll listen to you.

Send a powerful message to the DNC by adding your name to our petition today:

https://go.berniesanders.com/level-the-field

We'll be in touch soon as this situation evolves. You are the power behind this campaign. We are doing something unprecedented, and that has a lot of people scared.

In solidarity,

Jeff Weaver
Campaign Manager
Bernie 2016

Bernie Sanders himself, on stage at the 4th DNC debate issued a statement on the matter:

MUIR: Senator Sanders thank you and thank you all.

We do have a lot of important issues to get here tonight and we want to address the controversy of the last 24 hours right off the top because we heard some of the most heated rhetoric of the campaign so far between two of the campaigns on this stage tonight.

Senator Sanders, you fired a campaign staffer you have sued the Democratic National Committee; all of this after your campaign acknowledge that some of your staffers quote, "irresponsibly accessed data from another campaign." The Clinton campaign called this a very egregious breech of data of ethics and said, quote, "our data was stolen."

Did they overstate this or were your staffers essentially stealing part of the Clinton playbook?

SANDERS: David, let me give you a little bit of background here.

The DNC has hired vendors. On two occasions, there were breeches in information two months ago. Our staff found information on our computers from the Clinton campaign. And when our staffers said, "whoa, what's going here?" They went to the DNC quietly.

They went to the vendor and said, "hey, something is wrong," and that was quietly dealt with. None of that information was looked at. Our staffer at that point did exactly the right thing.

A few days ago a similar incident happened. There was a breach because the DNC vendor screwed up, information came to our campaign. In this case, our staff did the wrong thing -- they looked a that information. As soon as we learned that they looked at that information - we fired that person. We are now doing an independent internal investigation to see who else was involved.

Thirdly, what I have a really problem, and as you mentioned - this is a problem, I recognize it as a problem. But what the DNC did arbitrarily without discussing it with us is shut off our access to our information crippling our campaign. That is an egregious act. I'm glad that late last night, that was resolved.

SANDERS: Fourthly, I work -- look forward to working with Secretary Clinton for an investigation, an independent investigation, about all of the breaches that have occurred from day one in this campaign, because I am not convinced that information from our campaign may not have ended up in her campaign. Don't know that.

But we need an independent investigation, and I hope Secretary Clinton will agree with me for the need of that.

Last point. When we saw the breach two months, we didn't go running to the media and make a big deal about it. And it bothers me very much that, rather than working on this issue to resolve it, it has become many press releases from the Clinton campaign later.

MUIR: But Senator, you do mention the DNC -- the vender. But you said of your staff that they did the wrong thing.

SANDERS: Absolutely.

MUIR: So, does Secretary Clinton deserve an apology tonight?

SANDERS: Yes, I apologize.

MUIR: Secretary Clinton...

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Not only -- not only do I apologize to Secretary Clinton -- and I hope we can work together on an independent investigation from day one -- I want to apologize to my supporters. This is not the type of campaign that we run.

And if I find anybody else involved in this, they will also be fired.

MUIR: Secretary Clinton, he has apologized. How do your react?

CLINTON: I very much appreciate that comment, Bernie. It really is important that we go forward on this.

I know that you now have your data back, and that there has been an agreement for an independent inquiry into what did happen.

Obviously, we were distressed when we learned of it, because we have worked very hard -- I said in the beginning of this campaign, we want to reach as many voters as possible, and we have tens of thousands of volunteers doing that, and entering data all the time to keep up with what people are telling us.

And so, now that, I think, you know, we have resolved your data, we have agreed on an independent inquiry, we should move on. Because I don't think the American people are all that interested in this.

(APPLAUSE)

I think they're more interested in what we have to say about all the big issues facing us.

oscarBravo

Permabear wrote: »

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Then perhaps the people who do care can discuss among themselves the national security implications of Democratic candidates accessing each other's email lists, while studiously ignoring Republican candidates' desires to promote islamophobia, alienate minorities, and deny women access to reproductive rights.

Thargor

What are you even arguing? Nobody cares because its a non-issue, the vendor was blamed because it was their fault, there's literally more coverage being given to Clinton being 30 seconds late back on stage at the debate. I dont give a flying monkey if Sanders is critisized or not. My issue is that you're claiming bias and partisanship on this board:

Permabear wrote: »

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Where there is none, if the Democrats were sticking their feet in their mouths at a fraction of the rate the Republicans are it would be all over the airwaves and being discussed on here aswell but they arent, that's all there is to it.

You need a bigger straw than this "hack" to clutch at if you want to push this point, staffers for the same political party looking at each others files when they get shared on an internal network is hardly going to do it.

Mentioning Republican gaffes is not a "smokescreen" or a "red-herring", its trying to show you the scale of the scandal compared to this issue, think about it from a media standpoint, which is going to get more coverage?

Permabear

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Permabear

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Permabear

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