2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP

Permabear

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Thargor

Even though you've clearly cherry picked it from an article asking her how to deal with high gas prices 40 years after her initial investment and nothing whatsoever said about cracking down on cattle future trading? I bet there were cluorofluro-carbons in her deodorant back then aswell, and now she claims we need the ozone layer? What a hypocrite!

Permabear

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MightyMandarin

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm not a Hillary fan by any means, and her claims about cracking down on wall st. are questionable at best, but at least she hasn't been caught blatantly lying like Ted Cruz has.

All the candidates in the race have claimed they're not part of the establishment but it's clear that the only one who's truthful about this is Bernie.

First Up

She should have traded in straws too, seeing the number of them being clutched around here. Anyone who thinks that Hillary Clinton's brief dabble in commodities thirty years ago matters in this election is probably not a serious target for her vote anyway.

80% of the electorate has their voting preference set in stone. Like all elections, this one will be decided by about 20% of the electorate in a handful of "swing" States. You would hope that people in that situation are looking at substantial issues around the economy, social affairs and international relations - i.e. stuff that matters to them.

These important topics will eventually rise to the surface amid all the spin, smoke and mirrors. When they do, more than enough people will be able to tell the difference between a serious politician with a track record and a demagogue chancing his arm.

Permabear

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First Up

In a choice between Clinton and Trump, I know who would be more expected to scrutinise Wall St.

As for Hillary's brief dabble in commodities 35 years ago making her a "high risk speculator" running against a four times bankrupt, I'll give you an A for hyperbole but a Z for objectivity.

Permabear

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MightyMandarin

First Up wrote: »

In a choice between Clinton and Trump, I know who would be more expected to scrutinise Wall St.

As for Hillary's brief dabble in commodities 35 years ago making her a "high risk speculator" running against a four times bankrupt, I'll give you an A for hyperbole but a Z for objectivity.

Honestly, I think Trump would be more likely to tackle corporations and interests as long as it doesn't affect him. He seems the kind who really doesn't give a sh*t as long as he doesn't lose money. I don't think he's going to go around hiking taxes, but Hillary is more likely to be chained by the likes of Goldman and Citi due to their donations imo.

That said, Bernie is still a better candidate and less likely to let Wall St. away with robbery than both of them.

First Up

Permabear wrote:

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The good reason Clinton has support on Wall St is because she is seen to be a steady hand. It has nothing to do with an unwillingness to regulate.

Trump is a populist bull****ter and is rightly regarded as a loose canon.

First Up

MightyMandarin wrote: »

That said, Bernie is still a better candidate and less likely to let Wall St. away with robbery than both of them.

There is an honorable history of left leaning candidates in the Democrats primaries and presidential campaigns. The thing is that none of the fifteen Democratic presidents has come from that wing of the party.

There is a reason for that.

Overheal

You may not have to worry about a Clinton presidency anyway.

Bernie has almost taken the polls in Iowa, 40 to 42, while keeping his commanding lead in New Hampshire, 53 to 39.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iowa-poll-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders-virtually-tied/

This polling data doesn't even factor the most recent events, where Hillary has began tearing into Sanders on healthcare; in response she's been rightly ****canned by her own words in 2008 which even though technically Bernie is an Independent his view on healthcare is so directly aligned with Democrats that her words are coming back to be eaten.

http://m.motherjones.com/mojo/2016/01/hillary-clinton-democrats-should-never-attack-each-other-over-universal-health-care

On the reaction of her attacks and hypocrisy, Bernie has amassed another approx 47k contributions totaling close to another $1.4 million overnight. The campaign plans to use the war chest to know start running ads nationally/beyond the early stages so the Clintons don't get the chance to paint their spun narrative first with voters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-attacks-produce-windfall-of-campaign-cash-for-sanders/2016/01/13/d95b3d38-ba27-11e5-99f3-184bc379b12d_story.html

Meanwhile, Clinton played the powerball, maybe she needed the money? (Sanders has 0 fund raisers on his staff, Clinton has 30)

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/hillary-clinton-ice-t-ready-win-powerball-article-1.249544

Remember that nearly all of Sanders contributors have not at all reached the FEC cap of $2,700 and can contribute again during the campaign. In terms of financing he has possibly the biggest purse of anyone on the left, anyway, not including PACs

MightyMandarin

First Up wrote: »

There is an honorable history of left leaning candidates in the Democrats primaries and presidential campaigns. The thing is that none of the fifteen Democratic presidents has come from that wing of the party.

There is a reason for that.

While I still doubt that this is about to change, if Bernie wins in Iowa and New Hampshire, Hillary could quickly see a repeat of '08 happening.

Her 'electability' argument is nonsense, as Bernie walks over Trump and Cruz when matched up, while she's neck and neck with them. I'm getting sick of her attacks on him over things like healthcare too; even resorting to using Chelsea to do it is just sad imo.

First Up

MightyMandarin wrote:

While I still doubt that this is about to change, if Bernie wins in Iowa and New Hampshire, Hillary could quickly see a repeat of '08 happening.

A close look at where Bernie's support is coming from suggests that won't happen. Too narrow a base. We have seen his style of candidacy soar and then fall many times before. Sanders is no Obama.

Brian?

Permabear wrote: »

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Being a brilliant scholar doesn't make a man intelligent in my eyes."Intelligence" requires a lot more than proficiency in one field IMO.


Ted Cruz is a climate change denier, despite the overwhelming evidence climate change is man made. He is also an evangelical christian who launched his campaign at a "college" that teaches the literal interpretation of the bible. If he is as "intelligent" as some think, a belief in a magic friend in the sky is a huge blind spot.

20Cent

Is this Clinton trading "hypocrisy scandal"being reported in the news?

MightyMandarin

First Up wrote: »

A close look at where Bernie's support is coming from suggests that won't happen. Too narrow a base. We have seen his style of candidacy soar and then fall many times before. Sanders is no Obama.

This is what I thought, but I also thought Trump's support was coming from too small a group too. The poll numbers have proved me wrong though, so I think Bernie absolutely has a shot. The more the GOP keeps pummeling Hillary, the more Bernie closes in/over-takes her.

I'll reserve judgment till after New Hampshire, but if he takes Iowa (which will more than likely mean NH too) then Hillary's got a serious fight on her hands. If it also is the case that Bernie and Trump get the nominations, I think Bernie won't find it too hard to beat him given the poll match-up numbers.

c_man

Brian? wrote: »

If he is as "intelligent" as some think, a belief in a magic friend in the sky is a huge blind spot.

Wait, does this apply to Obama too?

First Up

MightyMandarin wrote:

This is what I thought, but I also thought Trump's support was coming from too small a group too. The poll numbers have proved me wrong though, so I think Bernie absolutely has a shot. The more the GOP keeps pummeling Hillary, the more Bernie closes in/over-takes her.

Trump is the latest favourite of the right wing entertainment industry - this year's Sarah Palin. They live in their own world - a world with few other inhabitants. Nothing they say about Clinton makes much difference to her vote or to the Dem primary process.

MightyMandarin wrote:

I'll reserve judgment till after New Hampshire, but if he takes Iowa (which will more than likely mean NH too) then Hillary's got a serious fight on her hands. If it also is the case that Bernie and Trump get the nominations, I think Bernie won't find it too hard to beat him given the poll match-up numbers.

Sanders may have a good January but I don't see that translating into a good July. A Trump/Sanders election would certainly offer voters a pretty polar dilemma but fun as it would be, I fully expect sanity to prevail in one if not both parties.

my friend

20Cent wrote: »

Is this Clinton trading "hypocrisy scandal"being reported in the news?

You won't find it in any Irish media

20Cent

my friend wrote: »

You won't find it in any Irish media

Or any media, no one thinks it's an issue.

MightyMandarin

First Up wrote: »

Trump is the latest favourite of the right wing entertainment industry - this year's Sarah Palin. They live in their own world - a world with few other inhabitants. Nothing they say about Clinton makes much difference to her vote or to the Dem primary process.

This is far from true. Hillary is taking a beating at the moment and unlike a few months ago when Bernie chose to ignore the Benghazi inquiry and email nonsense, she now has him on the attack because she took her anger out on him, even though her fall has been down to the GOP revealing story after story which damages her image.

Trump might be a bit of a clown, but he and the rest of the GOP can unite under one thing: Make sure Hillary doesn't win.

Sanders may have a good January but I don't see that translating into a good July. A Trump/Sanders election would certainly offer voters a pretty polar dilemma but fun as it would be, I fully expect sanity to prevail in one if not both parties.

July can be irrelevant if a candidate storms through in January. The race can be over then. '08 is a prime example of this; McCain had a great showing in Iowa and NH and he surged because of this, as did Obama. Hillary, meanwhile, faltered and eventually her campaign ran out of steam.

If Bernie takes Iowa and NH, he becomes the new hot topic in the Democratic race, and coming with that is more exposure and more donations, both of which are the two things Hillary has over him.

The first primaries and caucuses are absolutely crucial to building momentum, which is all the primary season is about.


As an aside, what do you mean by 'sanity will prevail'? I get Trump and Cruz are a bit radical, but how is Bernie at all to be compared with them? His ideas are mainstream, not radical at all.

Fr Tod Umptious

MightyMandarin wrote: »

This is far from true. Hillary is taking a beating at the moment and unlike a few months ago when Bernie chose to ignore the Benghazi inquiry and email nonsense, she now has him on the attack because she took her anger out on him, even though her fall has been down to the GOP revealing story after story which damages her image.

Trump might be a bit of a clown, but he and the rest of the GOP can unite under one thing: Make sure Hillary doesn't win.




July can be irrelevant if a candidate storms through in January. The race can be over then. '08 is a prime example of this; McCain had a great showing in Iowa and NH and he surged because of this, as did Obama. Hillary, meanwhile, faltered and eventually her campaign ran out of steam.

If Bernie takes Iowa and NH, he becomes the new hot topic in the Democratic race, and coming with that is more exposure and more donations, both of which are the two things Hillary has over him.

The first primaries and caucuses are absolutely crucial to building momentum, which is all the primary season is about.


s an aside, what do you mean by 'sanity will prevail'? I get Trump and Cruz are a bit radical, but how is Bernie at all to be compared with them? His ideas are mainstream, not radical at all.

But to ordinary Americans Bernie is far from mainstream.
He is way off to the left.

I have always got the impression that we here in Europe wish that Americans would in someway move more to the left, thus in some way vindicating our more left of centre, social decomratic ideals over their more right wing ones.

America has survived great with right wing ideals.

Note: I use left and right very loosely here to articulate what I am trying to say.

First Up

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

But to ordinary Americans Bernie is far from mainstream. He is way off to the left.

This is something that many on this side of the Atlantic fail to understand. The "centre" in the US is considerably further right than what we think of as centrist here. Both FG and FF would be considered left wing in the US and Labour would be regarded as almost communist.

Brian?

c_man wrote: »

Wait, does this apply to Obama too?

Yes it does. I wasn't aware I was touting Obama's intelligence the way Permabear was with Cruz.

Nothing I love more than a sly selective quote. Delete the part of my post it's hard to argue with and throw in a quality side swerve involving Obama. Who you presumably think I'm a fan of.

Where do you stand on Ted Cruz's intelligence vis a vis his stance on climate change?

First Up

MightyMandarin wrote:

This is far from true. Hillary is taking a beating at the moment and unlike a few months ago when Bernie chose to ignore the Benghazi inquiry and email nonsense, she now has him on the attack because she took her anger out on him, even though her fall has been down to the GOP revealing story after story which damages her image.

MightyMandarin wrote:

Trump might be a bit of a clown, but he and the rest of the GOP can unite under one thing: Make sure Hillary doesn't win.

MightyMandarin wrote:

July can be irrelevant if a candidate storms through in January. The race can be over then. '08 is a prime example of this; McCain had a great showing in Iowa and NH and he surged because of this, as did Obama. Hillary, meanwhile, faltered and eventually her campaign ran out of steam.

Remember Howard Dean?

Brian?

First Up wrote: »

Remember Howard Dean?

Poor aul Howard. He committed the cardinal sin of shouting and blew his chances.

K-9

c_man wrote: »

Wait, does this apply to Obama too?

Indeed.

Mod:

Can we leave out the spaghetti monster in the sky type stuff, there's plenty to debate without opening that can of worms!

MightyMandarin

First Up wrote: »

This is something that many on this side of the Atlantic fail to understand. The "centre" in the US is considerably further right than what we think of as centrist here. Both FG and FF would be considered left wing in the US and Labour would be regarded as almost communist.

I understand it perfectly, and Bernie is regarded and self-proclaimed as a socialist despite being more of a social democrat.

My point was, his ideas aren't radical and as evidenced by the polls, Americans might actually be venturing further away from their centre and the establishment.

I think you're grossly underestimating the polls and their value.

Brian?

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I understand it perfectly, and Bernie is regarded and self-proclaimed as a socialist despite being more of a social democrat.

My point was, his ideas aren't radical and as evidenced by the polls, Americans might actually be venturing further away from their centre and the establishment.

I think you're grossly underestimating the polls and their value.

Bernies ideas resonate with many working people because they make sense, right up to the point the extra taxes needed come up.

I had some very strange experiences in this regard while living in the US:

Me: Oh, I finished college with zero debt. I went to an IT and paid almost nothing in fees. University is still cheap. My masters program is 2700 a year. My wife had 6 months paid off work after our first son was born . I get paid sick leave, the government covers it of it goes over 3 consecutive days.
American friend: I wish it was like that here. It sounds brilliant.
Me: you'd have to pay more taxes
American friend: **** that. I ain't paying for other people
Me: but I thought you liked the sound of a social democracy
AF: yeah, but the taxes
Me: right so.