2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP

MightyMandarin · 15-01-2016 1:46pm

And yet, Europeans like myself look to America and see some of the highest income inequality in the developed world (the top 10% of families own roughly 75% of assets in the US), an unprecedented amount of gun violence (more than 13,000 people killed by them last year alone) where a mass murder has now become virtually a daily occurrence, the 2nd highest no. of incarcerations per capita in the world (behind the Seychelles with a pop. of 92,000) and a rise in radical Islam which, while not to the level it is here, has still affected the US with incidents such as San Bernardino, and say 'No thanks, I'm fine with my taxpayer subsidised college education, healthcare, sick leave, etc.'

Permabear · 15-01-2016 2:44pm

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Fr Tod Umptious · 15-01-2016 3:00pm

And at the same time we in Ireland get up in arms over tax rises, water charges, property tax etc.

We want all the benefit of European social protection systems without paying for it.

Mary Harney was right when she said we were closer to Boston than Berlin.

Permabear · 15-01-2016 3:05pm

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MightyMandarin · 15-01-2016 3:07pm

The thing is, I agree that inequality is an acceptable part of our economic system, I just don't agree with the level it is in America. There's inequality in every country in the world, I just don't think it's remotely acceptable to have the top10% owning 75% of the wealth. That's not me being a socialist or a snobby European; that's me seeing that there's something grossly unfair and you don't want anything to be done about it because it probably doesn't affect you, so you don't care.

Again, I don't think there's any reasonable way that the no. of guns can be reduced in America at this point. What I do think is that gun education needs to be introduced and a situation which allows AR-15's to be sold to the public, shotguns being sold with a 1hr waiting period, zero background checks etc. needs to be put to an end.

And you're using the classic 'the poor are only poor because they're either too lazy or too stupid to be rich' argument that's been trotted out time after time by Republicans backed by the rich who simply don't want anyone having a fair share in America.

If you believe that a child growing up in the backwoods of Alabama living out of a trailer with parents who work at Wal Mart has the potential to get a college education, get a high paying job and work themselves to a situation where their life is vastly improved to the one they grew up in, then you are unbelievably misguided and misinformed. The 'American Dream' is dead and buried, and you can thank Reaganomics, the Kochs and Karl Rove for that.

Americans, whether they are conservative or liberals, are not happy at the moment. Some of them support Trump, others support Sanders, but it's clear that the rise of anti-establishment candidates shows that Americans do not 'prefer the way things are'.

First Up · 15-01-2016 3:23pm

Nothing at all to do with who was in government eh?

That's handy.

Permabear · 15-01-2016 3:31pm

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Permabear · 15-01-2016 4:00pm

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Thargor · 15-01-2016 4:17pm

3 exceptions don't prove anything, especially when those people achieved success decades ago when it was common to work your way up without formal qualifications, student loans and everything else have long buried that kind of pathway to success.

karma_ · 15-01-2016 4:52pm

I think that says more about the absolutely abhorrent state of the media in the US and the deception they employ. Besides, it's not really surprising that people will vote or support things that are really not in their best interests, it's well known that they do.

esteve · 15-01-2016 5:00pm

What a ridiculous statement. The fact the statement was polled and from that you are trying to draw some profound conclusion is even more ridiculous. The results of that poll could be because of different attitudes as you state, or because of different levels of intelligence of the respondents. I’ll take a guess that you are probably in the minority in America (in terms of socio-economic background),if so your stance is just so predictable.

I am interested in the wealthy individual who is happy to pay more tax as he feels it will increase equality and as a result decrease crime, improve quality of life etc. Those types of people are the same breed as lower class individuals who don’t want hand outs but just an opportunity to show their true potential and make something of themsleves.

The wealthy individual who wishes to pay less tax and states they deserve their wealth as anybody can be rich (which is very different to everybody can be rich,the latter being impossible), is the same as the guy on benefits who states he needs hands out and refuses to work. These types of people are one and the same, just on different ends of the class scale.

Hande hoche! · 15-01-2016 5:51pm

Cruz's New York values attck was a bit of a disaster in the debate. He ended up applauding Trump.

Permabear · 15-01-2016 5:55pm

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MightyMandarin · 15-01-2016 5:57pm

I personalized it because you seem to agree with me that inequality is rife in the US (at least you haven't disagreed) and yet you claim that Americans are perfectly fine with this. That stat you trotted out is meaningless. I agree with it; rich people deserve their wealth, but rich people do not deserve the level of wealth when they own obscenely greater amounts than the vast majority of Americans, mostly because they gamed the system in their favour.

If you think that the millions of Americans living out of trailer parks, on minimum wage jobs and are still dependent on welfare and have no chance of having a better life are perfectly fine with living this almost 3rd world lifestyle while another small, select few of Americans, most of whom have gotten there through pure luck and/or cheated their way to the top, and live in riches beyond our wildest dreams, then you have a very low opinion of American people. Nobody, no matter how unintelligent they are, is happy with their situation especially when the only thing they did wrong was be born into a poor family.

Thargor already rebutted this post, but those examples are of people born and raised long before de-regulation, Reaganomics, and Karl Rove destroyed the country.

Trump is still well ahead of anyone resembling an 'establishment' candidate. NBC also found that 65% of republicans can see themselves voting for Trump. Bernie is also within the margin of error in Iowa and is well ahead in New Hampshire. Hillary is still the favourite, but her lead is slipping faster than in '08, and the more she's dragging out Chelsea to attack Bernie and putting out attack ads against him, the more she's falling. The Republicans are also dragging her reputation through the mud.

We'll have to wait till Iowa before we can make accurate predictions, but Hillary is slipping and right now, I wouldn't be surprised if Sanders took Iowa and New Hampshire.

First Up · 15-01-2016 6:01pm

Exactly; The Fed's role is to IMPLEMENT policies. Hence the same Fed (as in under Greenspan or Bernanke) can preside over economic growth (under Clinton), economic disaster (under Bush) and economic recovery (under Obama). Doesn't that suggest the the real culprits are elsewhere?

Blaming the Fed for the crash and praising them for the recovery is simply avoiding reality.

Permabear · 15-01-2016 6:19pm

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Permabear · 15-01-2016 6:49pm

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First Up · 15-01-2016 7:01pm

There was economic growth while Bill Clinton was president; there was a an economic crash of disastrous proportions while GWB was president; there has been a major economic recovery while Obama has been president. You are welcome to try to spread the blame/praise but these are facts.

First Up · 15-01-2016 7:06pm

You are confusing the roles of the Federal Reserve and the Treasury.

K-9 · 15-01-2016 7:14pm

The rich deserving their wealth is a pretty meaningless statement though. You could agree with it and still be part of the 46% who think it is very important to bridge the gap between the rich and poor and think it is extremely important to create equality of opportunity.

People may be looking for alternatives but when it comes to the actual Presidential race it becomes more partisan. So the 65% of Republicans who would vote Trump becomes 93% if he's up against Hillary. More Democrats would vote against party lines if it is Trump vs. Hillary.

People are looking for alternatives but views seem so divided I can't see one popular candidate coming along to break the 2 party system.

Permabear · 15-01-2016 7:17pm

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Permabear · 15-01-2016 7:21pm

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my friend · 15-01-2016 7:53pm

yes, camp Hillary once arrogantly dismissed Trump now they fear him

Meanwhile Bernie has skilfully kept chipping away, it's now at a point if Bernie said he would sell Alaska back to the Russians Hillary would agree to do the same and throw in Oregan too.

The pressure...

First Up · 15-01-2016 9:16pm

You both attributed blame for the crash and credit for the recovery to the Fed.

oscarBravo · 15-01-2016 10:32pm

And 42% of Americans believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. A large percentage of people believing something doesn't make that belief correct (or not bat**** insane, for that matter).

That's taking Jesuiticalism to some fairly radical heights. I can't imagine anyone other than Wayne LaPierre claiming with a straight face that the US doesn't have a gun violence problem.

MightyMandarin · 15-01-2016 11:06pm

And yet they have neither at this present moment.

The government shouldn't have to redistribute wealth, but in this situation there is no opportunity. You're just telling the same lie Karl Rove and the rest of the bankrolled Republicans trot out all the time: you can escape poverty if you work hard enough. It's nothing but a pure lie.

ancapailldorcha · 15-01-2016 11:08pm

True but Americans do have a say over who governs them and attitudes towards things such as wealth inequality and gun control will be factors in determining this.

Permabear · 15-01-2016 11:27pm

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Permabear · 15-01-2016 11:32pm

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ancapailldorcha · 15-01-2016 11:34pm

I hate the idea of people being trapped in poverty so it's always nice to hear about it when someone successfully avails of available opportunities and works hard to climb out of it.

2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP

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