2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP

Manach

Looks like Ireland might have an impact on this race. At least in tax matters
"
Security giant Tyco International and manufacturing multinational Johnson Controls will save $150m (€138.5m) in taxes annually when they merge and move their combined headquarters to Ireland.
" - http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/us-giants-tyco-and-johnson-controls-to-save-150m-in-tax-after-irish-move-34395542.html

It would be interesting to see how the various campaigns address this.

KingBrian2

Manach wrote: »

Looks like Ireland might have an impact on this race. At least in tax matters
"
Security giant Tyco International and manufacturing multinational Johnson Controls will save $150m (€138.5m) in taxes annually when they merge and move their combined headquarters to Ireland.
" - http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/us-giants-tyco-and-johnson-controls-to-save-150m-in-tax-after-irish-move-34395542.html

It would be interesting to see how the various campaigns address this.

It is a convenience for these firms to come here especially when the companies don't know who will even be nominated for the election. Politics is so very erratic over in Washington.

MightyMandarin

I'm far from a Hillary basher but I think this video captures the real reason why I think she's a 'typical politician'.

Back in '04, Warren gave this interview explaining how she educated then First Lady Clinton about bankruptcy law and how she helped veto a law which would've stopped millions of ordinary Americans from filing for bankruptcy, which would've massively benefited lenders. It all sounds very good, until Senator Clinton votes for the same bill a few years later when it resurfaced in Congress, most likely down to the same corporate interests she abides by today.

It's yet more proof that Hillary is the classic establishment politician and a presidency with her will do absolutely nothing for the middle class and the poor, and probably will increase the divide in wealth in America.

Permabear

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Overheal

Theres a few sides to that: the popular view you described, which I agree with; there is the notion that Ronald Reagan abandoned the Iowa debate prior to caucus and went on to win the country in a landslide (#TrumpIsNoReagan); and the view that FOX acted unprofessionally in its commentary on Trump's rather childish antics (he asked his twitter masses whether he should still go to the debate):

FOX wrote:

“We learned from a secret back channel that the Ayatollah and Putin both intend to treat Donald Trump unfairly when they meet with him if he becomes president — a nefarious source tells us that Trump has his own secret plan to replace the Cabinet with his Twitter followers to see if he should even go to those meetings.”

FOX says he is still welcome at the debate.. but it's really not his M.O.

Brian?

Permabear wrote: »

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Logically, this should be a final straw for a lot of GOP voters. He's throwing a mini tantrum a 3 year old would be proud of. But it won't be, his followers will love him more for it. It adds to the narrative that he's a outsider then GOP establishment is ganging up on. We all know Foxnews is the propaganda wing of the GOP anyway.

Permabear

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MightyMandarin

It might seem like a dumb move or a tantrum from Trump, but after listening to Chuck Todd on NBC, I think it could be a bold move from Trump's campaign.

In all of the debates so far, Trump's done ok. He hasn't had any gaffes but he hasn't shined either. The theory is, he can only lose going into a debate, because he's not going to stand out and doesn't need to anyway since his numbers are so high. He doesn't need this debate, the debate needs him.

It's obvious that Cruz and the rest will go on about Trump's cowardice for the first part of the debate, but after that, Cruz will be the front-runner up there, who's also anti-establishment and hated by most of the GOP. Cruz could certainly take a battering while Trump sits at home laughing at the TV. In the end, Trump might slip a bit, but Cruz could come out of this with a battering.

Brian?

Permabear wrote: »

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I can't see Trump losing supporters over this, I can see Cruz gaining some soft Trump voters and undecideds though. So in essence, you could be right.

As an aside to this, how in the name of God (I am using God here for effect), is Trump winning the evangelical vote? Multiple divorces, marital affairs, appearing on the front of Playboy and owning casinos and the evangelicals are behind him

Permabear

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Black Swan

28 January 2016 Trump continues to "improve" US international relations with his broad-sweeping, all inclusive "positive" comments regarding other cities and nations:

“You go to Brussels. I was in Brussels a long time ago—20 years ago—so beautiful, everything’s so beautiful. It’s like living in a hellhole right now,” Trump told Fox.

Source: http://www.newsweek.com/trump-brussels-hellhole-420451

Anyone see the craic in the de facto (poll) leader of the Republican Party, who has been able to cause damage to US foreign relations before elected to office; which, if elected lends confirmation to his position statements made while running for president?

InTheTrees

Brian? wrote: »

I can't see Trump losing supporters over this, I can see Cruz gaining some soft Trump voters and undecideds though. So in essence, you could be right.

I was listening to some interesting comentary this evening suggesting that if Trump wins the nomination he may possibly not participate in any Presidential debates.
He's shown he can, and get away with it. And debating a Democratic opponent would only cause him damage.

Akrasia

MightyMandarin wrote: »

It might seem like a dumb move or a tantrum from Trump, but after listening to Chuck Todd on NBC, I think it could be a bold move from Trump's campaign.

In all of the debates so far, Trump's done ok. He hasn't had any gaffes but he hasn't shined either. The theory is, he can only lose going into a debate, because he's not going to stand out and doesn't need to anyway since his numbers are so high. He doesn't need this debate, the debate needs him.

It's obvious that Cruz and the rest will go on about Trump's cowardice for the first part of the debate, but after that, Cruz will be the front-runner up there, who's also anti-establishment and hated by most of the GOP. Cruz could certainly take a battering while Trump sits at home laughing at the TV. In the end, Trump might slip a bit, but Cruz could come out of this with a battering.

I think it was a stroke of (evil) genius

Instead of a 'debate', Trump had a rally where he had the platform all to himself, while his opponents 'debated' each other mostly targeting Trumps' biggest rival, Cruz

Trump will win Iowa if Cruz the vote is diluted amongst the other candidates.

Trump supporters watched his rally, non trump supporters watch the other candidates bicker and attack each other

Permabear

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karma_

Permabear wrote: »

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Trump made the headlines (at least from my morning perusal of the news) and he wasn't even there. Just what is going on over there?

Permabear

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Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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Sadly, this seems to be the norm for a lot of women who don't fit into nice, preordained narratives. I say that as a gamer where the numbers you've listed would be a lot, lot higher.

walshyn93

Permabear wrote: »

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Don't act like misogynistic comments towards Megyn Kelly started with Donald Trump. Liberals (so-called) and progressives have been throwing bile at her for years. They do the same to all conservative women.

Here's a few examples from a video of her discussing voter intimidation by a black panther member and a DOJ whistleblower alleging that there is a discriminatory policy in effect in the DOJ voting rights section with a Democratic staffer.

Permabear

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walshyn93

Permabear wrote: »

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How do you make out that Trump is the cause of misogynistic comments towards Megyn Kelly when she has been the target of such comments for years?

"leading the charge" makes it sound as though he's inciting others to attack her. He's absolutely not. He's having a go at her for what he perceives as unfair debate questions. So essentially what you're saying is male politicians shouldn't have a go at female journalists because they might "amplify" misogyny.

To be clear, the stream of comments I screenshot before were the ones I found on the first video I found of a back and forth between Kelly and a Democrat. It's not hard to find Democrats treating Kelly in a manner which is only being given attention now because of Trump. Before when it was just Democrats being misogynist towards a conservative woman no one cared.

MightyMandarin

walshyn93 wrote: »

Don't act like misogynistic comments towards Megyn Kelly started with Donald Trump. Liberals (so-called) and progressives have been throwing bile at her for years. They do the same to all conservative women.

Here's a few examples from a video of her discussing voter intimidation by a black panther member and a DOJ whistleblower alleging that there is a discriminatory policy in effect in the DOJ voting rights section with a Democratic staffer.

If you're going to use youtube comments as an example to prove your point, you've already lost the argument. That place, as are most internet comment sections, is a cesspit and should never be used as an example for anything.

FWIW I don't pay much attention to Permabear's twitter graph above either. Trump's supporters might reflect some of his horrible antics, but in all fairness, some of the things I've seen him and many other GOP candidates say about Hillary aren't exactly nice either.

walshyn93

MightyMandarin wrote: »

If you're going to use youtube comments as an example to prove your point, you've already lost the argument. That place, as are most internet comment sections, is a cesspit and should never be used as an example for anything.

FWIW I don't pay much attention to Permabear's twitter graph above either. Trump's supporters might reflect some of his horrible antics, but in all fairness, some of the things I've seen him and many other GOP candidates say about Hillary aren't exactly nice either.

Considering the argument was about misogynistic online comments that seems to be a bizarre way to referee the debate.

MightyMandarin

walshyn93 wrote: »

Considering the argument was about misogynistic online comments that seems to be a bizarre way to referee the debate.

Yeah, and you're scraping the bottom of the barrel by looking to youtube comments; well, at least the bottom before you reach /pol/.

Anyway, I said it myself that I wouldn't pay too much attention to Trump followers' twitter comments. I also don't understand the whole outrage at the comments at Kelly either, considering GOP candidates have done nothing but sling mud at Hillary for the past 20 years, as has Kelly's employer.

walshyn93

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Yeah, and you're scraping the bottom of the barrel by looking to youtube comments. Well, at least the bottom before you reach /pol/.

Anyway, I said it myself that I wouldn't pay too much attention to Trump followers' twitter comments. I also don't understand the whole outrage at the comments at Kelly either, considering GOP candidates have done nothing but sling mud at Hillary for the past 20 years, as has Kelly's employer.

Yeah, misogynistic online abuse is pretty much the bottom of the barrel in general. You don't have a strong enough argument to dismiss the evidence I presented. Those youtube comments were made by people, many of whom I'm sure have twitter accounts and so their comments would find their way into Permabear's graphic all the same. You still have to explain how citing youtube comments loses the argument but citing tweets doesn't. Seems like an illogical attempt to avoid conflicting evidence.

Brian?

walshyn93 wrote: »

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Don't act like misogynistic comments towards Megyn Kelly started with Donald Trump. Liberals (so-called) and progressives have been throwing bile at her for years. They do the same to all conservative women.

Here's a few examples from a video of her discussing voter intimidation by a black panther member and a DOJ whistleblower alleging that there is a discriminatory policy in effect in the DOJ voting rights section with a Democratic staffer.



[/quote]
Add your reply here.

A shocking display of whataboutery. The vitriol aimed at Kelly by Trump supports is a disgrace, as is that aimed at her by liberas.

walshyn93

Brian? wrote: »

Add your reply here.

A shocking display of whataboutery. The vitriol aimed at Kelly by Trump supports is a disgrace, as is that aimed at her by liberas.

It's not a whataboutery it's a broader statement about online discourse itself. Isolating Donald Trump supporters for 24 hours to try and make a point about them is ignoring years of identical abuse by non-Trump supporters and therefore the data set is flawed as a means to getting inside the head of Trump supporters. Rather than whataboutery I've presented iss a control sample from before this spat between the two involving people who are almost certainly (given the content of the video was about Democrats intimidating voters) not Trump supporters.

MightyMandarin

walshyn93 wrote: »

Yeah, misogynistic online abuse is pretty much the bottom of the barrel in general. You don't have a strong enough argument to dismiss the evidence I presented. Those youtube comments were made by people, many of whom I'm sure have twitter accounts and so their comments would find their way into Permabear's graphic all the same. You still have to explain how citing youtube comments loses the argument but citing tweets doesn't. Seems like an illogical attempt to avoid conflicting evidence.

There is no argument. Twitter or youtube comments should never be used to illustrate any reasonable point because they're both filled with trolls and people filled with nothing but hate.

That said, I found your attempt at dragging 'the liberals' into this quite pathetic. As Brian? said it was a classic attempt of whataboutery.

nokia69

Permabear wrote: »

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A very large number of voters are pissed off with the establishment politicians this is whats driving support for both Trump and Sanders

http://robertreich.org/post/138036377515

Which explains a paradox I found a few months ago when I was on book tour in the nation’s heartland: I kept bumping into people who told me they were trying to make up their minds in the upcoming election between Sanders and Trump.

At first I was dumbfounded. The two are at opposite ends of the political divide.
But as I talked with these people, I kept hearing the same refrains. They wanted to end “crony capitalism.” They detested “corporate welfare,” such as the Wall Street bailout

It will be hard for many to believe but there are plenty of Dem voters who might vote for Trump



It looks like some insider Republicans are coming around to the idea of Trump as president

walshyn93

MightyMandarin wrote: »

There is no argument. Twitter or youtube comments should never be used to illustrate any reasonable point because they're both filled with trolls and people filled with nothing but hate.

That said, I found your attempt at dragging 'the liberals' into this quite pathetic. As Brian? said it was a classic attempt of whataboutery.

If you don't want to have the argument then don't. Perma presented evidence to make a point I presented counter evidence. Don't be one of those people who tries to interject their disinterest into someone else's conversation. It's rude.

I find the liberal attempt to make Megyn Kelly the victim after all these years of abusing her equally pathetic. Of all the debates that have been had about women being harassed by the social media until now Kelly has never been mentioned as a victim even though given her level of prominence, her appearance and her politics she's probably the primary recipient of misogynist online abuse in the world. It's very selective outrage is what I'm saying. Very selective and convenient.

As for what Perma said about women taking notice. Don't think conservative women haven't noticed the abuse Megyn Kelly has got from the left all these years. They're not going to suddenly start seeing the left as the saviour of women when their primary target along with Palin is now their favourite victim.

If you want to go ahead and again accuse me of whataboutery I'll rightly accuse you of using buzzwords in lieu of an argument.