2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP

Permabear

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oscarBravo

Permabear wrote: »

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I wonder where the perception of voter fraud could possibly be coming from?

I'm prepared to accept that there are some Republicans who might try to use restrictive voter requirements to disenfranchise Democratic voters. But I don't see much hard evidence that this is actually happening. In fact, in the 2012 election, blacks outvoted whites for the first time in US history. Blacks, Asians, and Hispanics all made up a larger share of the voting population than ever before. If the motive is to disenfranchise these groups, it just isn't working.

It may have escaped your notice, but the Voting Rights Act was conveniently disemboweled by the conservative majority on the Supreme Court after the 2012 election, making it dramatically easier to introduce restrictive voter ID laws.



For the avoidance of doubt: I have no problem with a requirement to prove your identity when voting, although I find it somewhat inconsistent with the idea of absentee ballots; I do have a problem with the wide-eyed innocence of some commentators in pretending not to know that the entire point of most of them is disenfranchisement.

I can bring a cheque book with me as voter ID in Ireland. To suggest that a voter ID law that requires registration with an office that's only open on the fifth Wednesday of each month is a comparable burden on the electorate is just silly.

Overheal

and some DMVs are likewise only open 2 or 3 days a week.

Trump thinks the RNC planted donors in the audience to boo him at the last debate: http://www.mediaite.com/election-2016/rnc-denies-trumps-claim-that-booing-crowd-was-stacked-against-him/

Perhaps if he wasn't extremely busy creating Trump Safe Spaces at his rallies he would be used to the crowd reactions he received.

InTheTrees

oscarBravo wrote: »

For the avoidance of doubt: I have no problem with a requirement to prove your identity when voting, although I find it somewhat inconsistent with the idea of absentee ballots;

A few states are going Mail-In only. Oregon for instance.

No ID required to mail in your balllot.

Permabear

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oscarBravo

InTheTrees wrote: »

A few states are going Mail-In only. Oregon for instance.

No ID required to mail in your balllot.

There's a recipe for personation, vote-buying, intimidation, coercion: everything that can go wrong with what is traditionally a secret ballot.

I wait with bated breath for the howls of objection from those who perceive voter fraud elsewhere.

Permabear

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Akrasia

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's a recipe for personation, vote-buying, intimidation, coercion: everything that can go wrong with what is traditionally a secret ballot.

I wait with bated breath for the howls of objection from those who perceive voter fraud elsewhere.

Fraud and voter disenfranchisement is a big problem with U.S. elections, but it's not from the voters, it's from the political parties and the election officials and the resource allocations prior to elections...

Postal votes do have major risks relating to possible intimidation and coercion of voters, but I'd imagine a bigger problem would be in 'lost' votes that 'accidentally' don't get counted when posted from certain districts

Check out any of the Greg Palast investigations from 2000 onwards. Corruption in U.S. democracy needs to be tackled, but it's not the voters who need to be targeted.

Akrasia

Permabear wrote: »

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To apply for a drivers license in Texas, you need to:

https://www.dps.texas.gov/DriverLicense/ApplyforLicense.htm

Gather documents that verify their:
identity and,
Social Security Number and,
U.S. citizenship or lawful presence status, and
Texas residency.

Apply in person at any driver license office and bring the required documents and fees.

Do a driver theory test,

Pass an eye test,

Must complete a driver education course if under 25 years of age

Complete Impact Texas Teen Driver (ITTD) requirements for any one under 25 years of age who completes a teen driver education course.

It's not exactly a trivial thing to apply for a drivers license. And why should any U.S. Citizen have to learn how to drive just to exercise their right to vote.

Permabear

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Overheal

Permabear wrote: »

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Yeah only 18 years. A mere pittance!

oscarBravo

Permabear wrote: »

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You're wilfully ignoring the actual point here. Yes, it's possible to get voter ID. Nobody's claiming that it's an insurmountable challenge.

If a state introduces a voter ID law that requires you to present yourself at the DMV during working hours on a weekday, who is more likely to be burdened by that requirement: the white middle-class suburban GOP voter, or the DNC-voting black single mother working two jobs in order to keep a roof over her head?

A voter ID law doesn't have to make it impossible for someone to vote in order to disenfranchise them. If it makes them less likely to vote, it has achieved its (unspoken) goal.

Overheal

And sometimes, not unspoken:

And this wonderful article from American Thinker: Registering The Poor to Vote is Un-American

Permabear

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oscarBravo

Permabear wrote: »

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I guess if the important thing is that she doesn't vote, it doesn't make much difference whether or not you double the obstacles to her doing so.

As noted, John Paul Stevens wrote in a majority Supreme Court opinion that "the inconvenience of going to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles ... does not qualify as a substantial burden on most voters' right to vote, or represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting." Are you saying you disagree with the Supreme Court's 6-3 majority opinion here?

Yes. Are there no majority Supreme Court decisions you disagree with?

Overheal

Hillary is targeting the youth vote hard .... by advertising on America Online.

Permabear

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oscarBravo

Permabear wrote: »

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Stop introducing laws that make it harder for people to vote. The fact that it's already hard for some people to vote is a pretty pathetic excuse for passing laws specifically designed to introduce fresh obstacles.

It's clear we're arguing from different perspectives here. It's obvious to me and, well, everyone that these laws are being introduced with the specific aim of disenfranchising voters - not necessarily en masse, but every little helps. You seem to be arguing from a belief that the legislatures introducing these measures are in no way motivated by such a desire.

I don't know how you've arrived at such a belief - the idea that voter ID laws are urgently required to combat non-existent personation is risible - but if that's genuinely the perspective you're arguing from, we're talking at cross purposes.

spiralism

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

get a passport

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/passports/apply.html

Only 46% of the US population have passports

BoJack Horseman

oscarBravo wrote: »

Stop introducing laws that make it harder for people to vote. The fact that it's already hard for some people to vote is a pretty pathetic excuse for passing laws specifically designed to introduce fresh obstacles.

It's clear we're arguing from different perspectives here. It's obvious to me and, well, everyone that these laws are being introduced with the specific aim of disenfranchising voters - not necessarily en masse, but every little helps. You seem to be arguing from a belief that the legislatures introducing these measures are in no way motivated by such a desire.

Who do you think the Irish government are trying to disenfranchise with their similar (arguably mor onerous) ID checks?

Overheal

spiralism wrote: »

Only 46% of the US population have passports

Which reminds me, Trumps wall will keep more people in that keep out...

ancapailldorcha

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Who do you think the Irish government are trying to disenfranchise with their similar ID checks?

I don't think they're trying to disenfranchise anyone. Poorer people in Ireland are better off than their American counterparts and thus more likely to have passports, driving licences, etc...

oscarBravo

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Who do you think the Irish government are trying to disenfranchise with their similar (arguably mor onerous) ID checks?

When did the Irish government introduce the requirement for ID to vote?

BoJack Horseman

oscarBravo wrote: »

When did the Irish government introduce the requirement for ID to vote?

A few years at least..... My wife was asked for it in 2011...

I've only been asked once, in the 2014 locals.

oscarBravo

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

A few years at least..... My wife was asked for it in 2011...

A lot longer ago than that. If the Irish government were introducing new voter ID laws in the last couple of years, then the question of who they're trying to disenfranchise might have some relevance.

Permabear

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Brian?

Permabear wrote: »

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If memory serves, you were previously arguing that the black single mother working two jobs wouldn't be able to vote anyway, since elections take place on a workday (Tuesday). So whether she has an ID or not is irrelevant.

As noted, John Paul Stevens wrote in a majority Supreme Court opinion that "the inconvenience of going to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles ... does not qualify as a substantial burden on most voters' right to vote, or represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting." Are you saying you disagree with the Supreme Court's 6-3 majority opinion here?[/quote]
Add your reply here.

Just because it's been deemed constitutional, it doesn't make it right.

Permabear

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Permabear

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ECO_Mental

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm just curious -- why do you keep writing "Add your reply here" in every post? I can't add anything where you've indicated, because only you or a moderator can edit your posts.[/quote]
Add your reply here.

That's automatically added when you use the beta mobile version of boards see above. You have to delete it every time you post:)