2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP

B_Wayne

511 wrote: »

'Cause that protester was also disrupting free speech. People protesting Trump and disrupting his rallies are initiating the censorship.

Manach wrote: »

Whilst not supporting Trump myself, comparisons of him with Hitler show both a lack of imagination and a lack of contextualised historical knowledge that points instead to a crisis in their education system.

In the last 2 months, he refused to condemn the KKK. He pretended to be oblivious to who they were. I've seen at least one event where a Muslim was removed from an event purely because she was a Muslim. Loads of Trump supporters shoving a black teen around and directly targeting her.

Then you have the more bizarre events of Trump's supporters making what closely resemble Hitler salutes on his command. Plus this latest incident which claimed that this Trump supporter was a democrat's plant....

https://twitter.com/_Cooper/status/708687683367919617

He's been stoking racism constantly, he's even accused the President of forging his birth cert. So the Hitler comparisons are pretty spot on tbh.

BoJack Horseman

B_Wayne wrote: »

So the Hitler comparisons are pretty spot on tbh.

Add to that his little mentioned energy policy of power generation via the incineration/recycling of undesirable people.

Some journo needs to pin him down as to whether he will honour the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.

Trump & Hitler are peas-in-a-pod!

Billy86

B_Wayne wrote: »

ism constantly, he's even accused the President of forging his birth cert. So the Hitler comparisons are pretty spot on tbh.

That's without mentioning his painting of the USA as a 'broken country' that needs to be 'made great again' in large part by shipping out the undesirables, coming on the heels of an historically massive depression/recession.

And from a different standpoint, his effective use of social media go get a greater reach (and also boost his own profile - both are/were textbook narcissists) is not unlike Hitler's effective use of the loudspeaker (the inventor of which went to his grave in guilt over, feeling he played a part in the Holocaust).

LuckyLloyd

@BlackSwan: that particular polling outlet has proven to be a huge outlier to date that is extremely bearish on Trump. I wouldn't take it on his own as indicative of a whole lot.

B_Wayne

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Add to that his little mentioned energy policy of power generation via the incineration/recycling of undesirable people.

Some journo needs to pin him down as to whether he will honour the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.

Trump & Hitler are peas-in-a-pod!

Billy86 wrote: »

That's without mentioning his painting of the USA as a 'broken country' that needs to be 'made great again' in large part by shipping out the undesirables, coming on the heels of an historically massive depression/recession.

And from a different standpoint, his effective use of social media go get a greater reach (and also boost his own profile - both are/were textbook narcissists) is not unlike Hitler's effective use of the loudspeaker (the inventor of which went to his grave in guilt over, feeling he played a part in the Holocaust).

Plus his stance on torture which would basically ignore that the Geneva convention had ever existed. But I have a poor grasp of history, obviously...... :P

Manach

B_Wayne wrote: »

But I have a poor grasp of history, obviously...... :P

Reading primary sources like Shirer's Berlin diaries or secondary works like Synder's Bloodlands or Burleigh would help with that.

JPNelsforearm

B_Wayne wrote: »

In the last 2 months, he refused to condemn the KKK. He pretended to be oblivious to who they were.
.

Has Bernie Sanders disavowed the all the domestic terrorists and racists who have pledged their support to his campaign? His he disavowed his past support for the Soviet union and Cuba, the Sandinista's?

Has he disavowed Bill Ayers, Mark Rudd et all?

Donald Trump doesnt disavow David Duke, stop the presses. Its a zero sum game once you get into that crap, utterly pointless.

jobbridge4life

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Has Bernie Sanders disavowed the all the domestic terrorists and racists who have pledged their support to his campaign? His he disavowed his past support for the Soviet union and Cuba, the Sandinista's?

Has he disavowed Bill Ayers, Mark Rudd et all?

Donald Trump doesnt disavow David Duke, stop the presses. Its a zero sum game once you get into that crap, utterly pointless.

He openly supports torture.
He openly supports the execution of the families of suspected terrorists.
He lies constantly.
He has changed his opinion on everything he has ever held an opinion on.
He encourages and advocates division and violence among the American people.
He has a spectacular list of business failures and alleged frauds.
He has sent jobs abroad.
He has taken millions, tens of millions in loans from foreign sources.
He has used rhetoric which is already damaging America's reputation and relationships internationally.
He has employed many many illegal immigrants.

...and...

he said he might date his daughter if it weren't for the unfortunate social stigma against incest.

That's who you are defending.

ECO_Mental

CNN had a stat that if Trump is to win the GE he will need 70% of all the white male votes on the country......

The GOP messiah himself (Regan) only got some thing like 67%. He has alienated so many groups that he will need that crazy %. He has no chance

JPNelsforearm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

He openly supports torture.

So what? Waterboarding and stress positions, hardly the stuff of nightmares..

He openly supports the execution of the families of suspected terrorists.

Hyperbole, but also an inaccurate quotation

He lies constantly.

Not really

He has changed his opinion on everything he has ever held an opinion on.

Shocker, also not true, compared to say, Hillary? nah, its not a big deal. On the things that matter, trade and illegal immigration, they are the number one issue.

He encourages and advocates division and violence among the American people.

False. Illegals are not american, he also doesnt encourage violence amongst the american people.

He has a spectacular list of business failures and alleged frauds.

As a Businessman. he has come out on top at the end of the day, so what. He is the only candidate who has actually created jobs

He has sent jobs abroad.

As a businessman

He has taken millions, tens of millions in loans from foreign sources.

As a businessman, also, how much US debt has China bought at this point?

He has used rhetoric which is already damaging America's reputation and relationships internationally.

Unlike the massive foreign wars that have killed millions, its Donald Trumps words.....yeah

He has employed many many illegal immigrants.

He employed a subcontractor, who in turn employed illegals, as a businessman

he said he might date his daughter if it weren't for the unfortunate social stigma against incest.

LOL, I forgot awkward dad jokes are not allowed in the workers paradise.


Trump is still the least worst candidate.

JPNelsforearm

Trump on the cancelled Rally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Olh9hCiDKGs

"Build that Wall"

Trump gives the people what they want.

From the same rally.
Nearly jumped, brushes it off, gees up the crowd, a natural leader.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5L7hmK0-3o

Hande hoche!

ECO_Mental wrote: »

CNN had a stat that if Trump is to win the GE he will need 70% of all the white male votes on the country......

The GOP messiah himself (Regan) only got some thing like 67%. He has alienated so many groups that he will need that crazy %. He has no chance

Various talking heads have written him off many times. Think he has a decent shot.

B_Wayne

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

So what? Waterboarding and stress positions, hardly the stuff of nightmares..

Ya it sort of is the thing of nightmares, Christopher Hitchens held a similar position and decided to volunteer himself to be waterboarded, he agreed after experiencing it that it is a form of torture. Victims have had years of psychological trauma from it and it is possible to die. Even as an interrogation technique, it doesn't work. People will confess to anything when traumatised...

But you can credibly claim that it's not the stuff of nightmares? Must inform the medical and psychological community!

jobbridge4life

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

So what? Waterboarding and stress positions, hardly the stuff of nightmares..

I mean it literally is. It literally is torture.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Hyperbole, but also an inaccurate quotation

He said he wanted to 'go after the families of terrorists'... the implication is clear to all but the most deluded.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Not really

Oh well maybe you could correct the numerous fact checking journalists and organisations that hold him out as an utter fraud. But if you can watch his recorded deceptions and still believe him...

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Shocker, also not true, compared to say, Hillary? nah, its not a big deal. On the things that matter, trade and illegal immigration, they are the number one issue.

Oh it very much is true. And on things that matter like, health care, migration, civil rights, taxation etc? and virtually everything he has ever spoken on?

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

False. Illegals are not american, he also doesnt encourage violence amongst the american people.

That is a genuinely stunning statement. In the first instance you're demonstrably wrong. He openly advocated for violence against protesters and lamented that the retribution against same wasn't worse. And in the second instance but more importantly, does it really make that much of a difference the man is encouraging violence against his fellow man? Forgive me for invoking the Cyndi Lauper card but you are showing some true and nasty colours.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

As a Businessman. he has come out on top at the end of the day, so what. He is the only candidate who has actually created jobs

Well right now he has... but whose to say how far he his from his fifth bankruptcy? 'created jobs'... LOL

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

As a businessman

As a businessman, also, how much US debt has China bought at this point?

Yes and as a hypocrite, deluded protectionist advocate.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Unlike the massive foreign wars that have killed millions, its Donald Trumps words.....yeah

LoL... he wants to 'bomb the ****' out of several people, advocates torture, and violence among his compatriots. So yeah dude his words... unless of course you don't believe a word out of his mouth.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

He employed a subcontractor, who in turn employed illegals, as a businessman

So I guess 'the buck stops' at the last person I employed? What a joke.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

LOL, I forgot awkward dad jokes are not allowed in the workers paradise.


Trump is still the least worst candidate.

Cool, call me 'Comrade No Incest Jokes from the President' and I'll work for your good as well as mine. What a campaign slogan... Vote Trump 'least worst candidate'... I'd laugh if you didn't really have a hard on for the bouffant Mussolini.

oscarBravo

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

So what? Waterboarding and stress positions, hardly the stuff of nightmares..

Been waterboarded often, have you?

Billy86

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

So what? Waterboarding and stress positions, hardly the stuff of nightmares..

Good thing you're more qualified to discuss this than military, psychological, interrogative, and all other forms of experts.

Hyperbole, but also an inaccurate quotation

Funny, because here he is doubling down on it.

Not really

As per Politifact:
Trump - 7% truth/mostly truth... 15% half truths... 77% mostly false/false/'pants on fire lies'
Cruz - 21% truth/mostly truth... 13% half truths... 65% mostly false/false/'pants on fire lies'
Rubio - 36% truth/mostly truth... 22% half truths... 42% mostly false/false/'pants on fire lies'
Kasich - 50% truth/mostly truth... 17% half truths... 32% mostly false/false/'pants on fire lies'
Clinton - 51% truth/mostly truth... 21% half truths... 28% mostly false/false/'pants on fire lies'
Sanders - 50% truth/mostly truth...19% half truths... 31% mostly false/false/'pants on fire lies'

Sure yeah, he only fails to tell the truth about 3 times more often than the next worst offender (funny enough his closest contender for the GOP nomination), and he only lies bout 2.5 times as much as Sanders or Clinton.

Shocker, also not true, compared to say, Hillary? nah, its not a big deal. On the things that matter, trade and illegal immigration, they are the number one issue.

It's been pointed out over and over that he has changed on nearly everything to fit the GOP voter demographic. Keep lying to yourself on this one, it's clear as day to most of the rest of us.

False. Illegals are not american, he also doesnt encourage violence amongst the american people.

"BIRMINGHAM, Ala. — Donald Trump said Sunday that the protester who interrupted his rally at a convention center here on Saturday morning was “so obnoxious and so loud” that “maybe he should have been roughed up.”"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/11/22/black-activist-punched-at-donald-trump-rally-in-birmingham/

And of course him saying he would pay for the legal fees for those who get violent with protesters. Here's the video of it, before you try and claim it was quoted out of context.

As a Businessman. he has come out on top at the end of the day, so what. He is the only candidate who has actually created jobs

He has come out on top personally by tanking several of his businesses, not really all too different from Bertie to be honest. His history of failures come from overreaching without thinking about how to fund these things down the road... exactly like that wall he keeps going on about.

As a businessman

So he is doing exactly what he says he wants to stop. But hey, he is only honest about 3 times less than the next closest in the whole race.

As a businessman, also, how much US debt has China bought at this point?

So you're happy for him to do exactly what you complain about others doing.

Unlike the massive foreign wars that have killed millions, its Donald Trumps words.....yeah

Going by his words, he is looking to increase that death toll considerably - including targeting innocent families and using torture. But hey, if Donald is doing it it's all good by you!

He employed a subcontractor, who in turn employed illegals, as a businessman

So he has hired lots and lots of illegals.

Trump is still the least worst candidate.

If you ignore everything negative about him.

K-9

Who'd have thought extreme opinions would attract opposite extremes? Trump knows exactly what he is doing, playing his hard man act with secret service bodyguards all around him.

As Rubio said, politicians need to act responsibly, Trump hasn't and is getting the repercussions. If he can't handle the controversy from his controversial opinions well...

How come Cruz isn't getting protests at his rallies?

K-9

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Censorship of any kind makes me extremely uneasy. Anyone should have the right to voice their opinions be they Donald Trump, Ayn Rand or Karl Marx.

People also have the right to protest at offensive opinions, that's is really what freedom of speech is. People are free to have idiotic opinions and policies and others are free to call them on it. Vietnam and civils rights protestors as an example. This was a college campus after all as Trump knew rightly.

The police said they had enough resources last night, and barring a few skirmishes, Trump and the media made far too big a deal of it.

K-9

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The rally was cancelled. BoJack posted a link a few pages back. If Trump was egging on his supporters to engage in violence, then, yes he must bear some of the responsibility for that. However, this wasn't the case.



Where have I said that nobody should be allowed to protest Trump exactly? I'm all for protest. I just expect protesters to behave themselves and abide by the law, something many on both sides of the left-right divide seem unable to do.



You misunderstand my point. I'm not saying that everyone who disagrees with Trump should personally debate him. I'm saying that his arguments should be debunked by blogs, newspapers, journals, think tanks and the like. These forms of media have wide reach.

The media, blogs etc. are taking him on but, as has been pointed out ad nauseam, Trump supporters aren't listening. The hardcore Trump and indeed Sanders support demographic generally don't.

Of course, Trump's treatment of the media at his rallies don't help, but his supporters will excuse it. Same with vetting of people turning up.

People are just seeing what the alternative to "mainstream" politicians is like. Be careful what you wish for.

K-9

B_Wayne wrote: »

Plus his stance on torture which would basically ignore that the Geneva convention had ever existed. But I have a poor grasp of history, obviously...... :P

Apparently torture works. Yeah, rendition really works and is never a recruiting tool for IS and other extremists.

Torture worked in Northern Ireland too apparently! In some parallel universe that those who champion it live in. Donald Trump won't have to deal with the repercussions of his hard man speeches either.

timmyntc

A discussion of some of the bias and glaring inaccuracies of the Politifact fact checker.
I think it's important to cover this as the politifact stats seem to be constantly reposted and taken as gospel, and unfortunately, gopel they are not.

As for 'deluded protectionists', might I remind you that Bernie Sanders advocates the very same protectionist type economic policies that Trump does in order to protect and regenerate domestic industry and create jobs.

timmyntc

Also a lot of people on here (and indeed across the US) label Trump as a pathological liar - a man who lies constantly and not a thing he says can be trusted. However these same people put a lot of weight behind some of the things Trump says when it suits them. If he says something that they feel they can use against him, such as Torture works, it's Trumps genuine beliefs and he's a crazed lunatic, worse than Hitler etc etc, however if it's something positive he says, or something that aligns with that of other candidates like for instance both Trump and Bernie being protectionist, or some of their pro-working class rhetoric, thats nothing more than a Trump lie or some populist drivel - however the very same thing is A-ok for bernie sanders?

It seems like many people cherry pick Trump quotes to lend credence to, and brand everything else as an absolute lie. Perhaps the prevalence of this in US mainstream media may be one of many reason why Trump has such a string following - people see right through shallow arguments like this as they do nothing but further polarize already disenfranchised voters towards Trump.

ancapailldorcha

K-9 wrote: »

People also have the right to protest at offensive opinions, that's is really what freedom of speech is. People are free to have idiotic opinions and policies and others are free to call them on it. Vietnam and civils rights protestors as an example. This was a college campus after all as Trump knew rightly.

The police said they had enough resources last night, and barring a few skirmishes, Trump and the media made far too big a deal of it.

My issue isn't with protesting, it's with violence.

K-9 wrote: »

The media, blogs etc. are taking him on but, as has been pointed out ad nauseam, Trump supporters aren't listening. The hardcore Trump and indeed Sanders support demographic generally don't.

Of course, Trump's treatment of the media at his rallies don't help, but his supporters will excuse it. Same with vetting of people turning up.

People are just seeing what the alternative to "mainstream" politicians is like. Be careful what you wish for.

They might not be but censoring his ideas isn't going to achieve anything. I don't like this alternative myself but it's gaining traction because these people feel ignored and abandoned my mainstream politicians. As Louis Brandies once said, "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants".

20Cent

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Im not a terrorist, so no. Its an ethical decision, you are at war, you think you can extract information that can save lives, what do you do? Make someone "uncomfortable for a few days" or do nothing?

Torture is inhumane demeaning and humiliating.
And thats just for the torturer.

Don't see why trump supporters criticise Hillary for being a "warmonger" while supporting trump who's violent rhetoric is much worse.

JPNelsforearm

20Cent wrote: »

Torture is inhumane demeaning and humiliating.
And thats just for the torturer.

Don't see why trump supporters criticise Hillary for being a "warmonger" while supporting trump who's violent rhetoric is much worse.

If Trump set off on foreign expeditions, voted to use military force, etc etc, organised regime change, then obviously yes, I wouldnt support him, but as you aptly put it, its all "rhetoric", and it concerns terrorism, not foreign adventurism. Words are not worse then action, Trump could say he is going to put all muslims in camps or something equally outrageous, and it still would be less damaging to Muslims that everything Barack Obama and Clinton have done overseas. mean words<millions of dead muslims

I'm not a Trump supporter btw, I am just enjoying the show, I think someone like Gary Johnson would be the best option, Trump is merely the least worst, plus he is making a mockery of both parties, which is a huge plus.

Christy42

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

If Trump set off on foreign expeditions, voted to use military force, etc etc, organised regime change, then obviously yes, I wouldnt support him, but as you aptly put it, its all "rhetoric", and it concerns terrorism, not foreign adventurism. Words are not worse then action, Trump could say he is going to put all muslims in camps or something equally outrageous, and it still would be less damaging to Muslims that everything Barack Obama and Clinton have done overseas. mean words<millions of dead muslims

I'm not a Trump supporter btw, I am just enjoying the show, I think someone like Gary Johnson would be the best option, Trump is merely the least worst, plus he is making a mockery of both parties, which is a huge plus.

You know he has no power yet? You are saying if he is telling the truth you wouldn't support him. What are you basing your least worst opinion on then? You have no idea what he will do as you don't believe he will do what he says so you have to be making up the gaps.

Oh waterboarding is horrific, psychological torture. Part of the reason we want to defeat terrorists is so people can feel safe. The fear that they could be waterboarding over a mistake (which has happened) kinda defeats that purpose. If you use nonviolent methods then innocents are merely inconvenienced for a while instead of scarred for life.

JPNelsforearm

Christy42 wrote: »

You know he has no power yet? You are saying if he is telling the truth you wouldn't support him. What are you basing your least worst opinion on then? You have no idea what he will do as you don't believe he will do what he says so you have to be making up the gaps.

Oh waterboarding is horrific, psychological torture. Part of the reason we want to defeat terrorists is so people can feel safe. The fear that they could be waterboarding over a mistake (which has happened) kinda defeats that purpose. If you use nonviolent methods then innocents are merely inconvenienced for a while instead of scarred for life.

Telling the truth as regards what? I made up a scenario, an outrageous one, Trump hasnt said anything close to that. Nothing Trump has said could lead anyone to believe he will be as bad on foreign policy as the last 26 odd years of Republican/Democrat governance has been. Aside from on the Israel issue, which he sides with the status-quo for obvious reasons, as it would be political suicide to do otherwise.

If you capture someone engaged in violent terrorism, or plotting it and the rest of the cell has escaped, that is distinct from scooping up random people or the wrong people and engaging in enhanced interrogation.
I would support the use of water boarding within a set framework, it entirely depends on the scenario, same with any weapon , nuclear, thermobaric, chemical weapons, it doesnt matter. To say we will "never" do or use "X" because we hold the moral high ground is a ridiculously dogmatic position to hold. You deal with the scenario on a case by case basis, nothing is off the table, but at the same time you use rationality and logic to make any decision.

JPNelsforearm

B_Wayne wrote: »

In the process, it also damages the US international reputation and creates new generations of extremists. The US engaging in torture makes it easier for fundamentalists to recruit.

.

Thats pretty much bull**** victim blaming, Islamic terrorism has existed since its inception as a religion at the foot of Saudi Arabia, it exited long before waterboarding was revealed to the public and it will exist long after waterboarding ceased to be used by the US.

B_Wayne

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Thats pretty much bull**** victim blaming, Islamic terrorism has existed since its inception as a religion at the foot of Saudi Arabia, it exited long before waterboarding was revealed to the public and it will exist long after waterboarding ceased to be used by the US.

Every time the US does something unethical, it make it easier to recruit, this is a fact. Secondly, not everyone exposed to torture is a terrorist. You're creating exceptional circumstances where it's acceptable to torture while the Senate have found it yielded no significant intelligence during its usage. People just make up ****.

It really seems more like a bloodlust for both you and Donald. Why else would you torture a person when it doesn't do anything of benefit? You keep endorsing it while ignoring facts.

JPNelsforearm

B_Wayne wrote: »

Every time the US does something unethical, it make it easier to recruit, this is a fact. Secondly, not everyone exposed to torture is a terrorist. You're creating exceptional circumstances where it's acceptable to torture while the Senate have found it yielded no significant intelligence during its usage. People just make up ****.

It really seems more like a bloodlust for both you and Donald. Why else would you torture a person when it doesn't do anything of benefit? You keep endorsing it while ignoring facts.

"easier to recruit":rolleyes: the torture program was only recently revealed, US interventionism is only a relatively recent phenomenon, explain over 1500 years of war and islamic expansionism. That victim blaming argument is the flip side of the "they hate us for our freedoms" defense.

Then why would the CIA implement it? To say torture doesnt work because a political committee says so, is a weak point. The French intelligence/military dismantled the FLN in Algeria through the use of pretty brutal torture, could they have used other methods, possibly, was it "morally wrong", yes, utterly reprehensible, were innocents harmed, yes. But did it work, absolutely yes, they completely dismantled the FLN.

"Endorsing", its hardly an endorsement to say it has its place, violence, or quasi violence in the case of water boarding and stress positions, have their place in the intelligence/defense of ones country, to put them off the table on ethical grounds is a dogmatic position.

War and national defense are grey areas, to take absolutist moral positions about what is and is not acceptable, no matter the situation on the ground, is an immature and inflexible position to adopt. As the US marine corp tactical doctrine dictates.
"Maneuver warfare is a way of thinking in and about war that should shape every action. It is a state of mind born of a bold will, intellect, initiative and ruthless opportunism. It is a state of mind bent on shattering the enemy morally and physically by paralyzing and confounding him, by avoiding his strength, by quickly and aggressively exploiting his vulnerabilities, and by striking him in a way that will hurt him most.
"
That is how national defence and anti terrorism operations are conducted in the modern era. To suddenly start boxing yourself in whilst the enemy has no qualms about butchering people in the streets is a naive worldview.