2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP

Amazingfun

Christy42 wrote: »

While pointing to a study showing mexican illegal immigrants are rape victims. Since they are all Mexican and illegal immigrants are those victims rapists too?

There isn't anything to show that A: the people who raped them are in the US. And
B: that the attackers are all Mexican (there is money in this I reckon a few people smugglers come from elsewhere)
C: That Mexicans who smuggle illegal immigrants across the border make up a significant proportion of Mexican illegal immigrants (surely you would keep your head down after entering ilegally and leave that to the gangs?). If it is the same few gangs attacking these women then the issue is not illegal immigrants but the gangs.

Perhaps you wrote this before coffee or something?
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Christy42

Amazingfun wrote: »

Perhaps you wrote this before coffee or something?
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Trump's evidence that Mexican Illegal immigrants are rapists was to point out a lot of Mexican illegal immigrants are rape victims.

I pointed out several issues with this ridiculous leap of logic.

Amazingfun

Nope, still haven't a clue what yer on about.

There really isn't an "issue" anyways.
Seems a good number of American people have indicted they would like their already existing immigration laws to be enforced, and if Trump becomes President, there's a good chance they will be.

JPNelsforearm

Christy42 wrote: »

Trump's evidence that Mexican Illegal immigrants are rapists was to point out a lot of Mexican illegal immigrants are rape victims.

I pointed out several issues with this ridiculous leap of logic.

Who does the raping? ghosts?

ancapailldorcha

Let's up the standard of discussion please.

Christy42

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Who does the raping? ghosts?

The people trafficking them I imagine. Do all illegal immigrants from Mexico immediately try and help others across the border? If it was me I would get away from anything to do with the border ASAP if I was an illegal immigrant.

Maybe shutting down the gangs might be a better option. I really fail to see why someone working illegally in the restaurant is getting the blame. Or the victims themselves given they are also illegal immigrants from Mexico.

Billy86

Amazingfun wrote: »

As you probably already know but conveniently leave out, Trump was talking about illegals and the crimes they commit in America when that specific comment was made. We never hear a word of care nor concern about the victims of crimes from Bernie or Hillary, might affect their target "minority" of the day, and we couldn't have that!:rolleyes:

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

"The Mexican government is much smarter, much sharper, much more cunning. And they send the bad ones over because they don't want to pay for them. They don't want to take care of them."

"Sadly, the overwhelming amount of violent crime in our major cities is committed by blacks and hispanics - a tough subject - must be discussed."

Where does he mention illegal immigrants in any of these?

Billy86

Christy42 wrote: »

The people trafficking them I imagine.

Who are funnily enough, primarily white Americans.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/most-us-mexico-border-smugglers-are-us-citizens-paper-finds_us_55aba62be4b0d2ded39f3c58

The typical coyote is a white American man of Hispanic descent, 34 years old, with little schooling, the Tribune-Review reported Saturday at http://TribLIVE.com/AmericanCoyotes/ as it began a weeklong series on human smuggling across the U.S.-Mexico border. Many are unemployed or do the work to pick up extra money.

Human smuggling is a labor-intensive industry, with about one coyote driving, feeding or guarding every three migrants entering the United States illegally, the newspaper found. Americans dominate key parts of the trade, especially jobs designed to circumnavigate the U.S. Customs and Border Protection dragnet that extends hundreds of miles inland from the border.

Four out of every five coyotes convicted of transporting migrants — or serving as “chequedores,” the scouts who spy on law enforcement so the drivers can avoid them — are Americans who earn a premium for both their birthright and the risks they’re willing to take.

JPNelsforearm

Billy86 wrote: »

Who are funnily enough, primarily white Americans.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/most-us-mexico-border-smugglers-are-us-citizens-paper-finds_us_55aba62be4b0d2ded39f3c58

"white american of hispanic descent"

" Sergio Elidoro Garcia never intended to become an American “coyote.”"

So other hispanics. But to be PC we'll call them "white Americans"..

I suppose just like these "white americans"

http://kxan.com/investigative-story/texas-troopers-ticketing-hispanics-motorists-as-white/

Amazingfun

Billy86 wrote: »

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

"The Mexican government is much smarter, much sharper, much more cunning. And they send the bad ones over because they don't want to pay for them. They don't want to take care of them."

"Sadly, the overwhelming amount of violent crime in our major cities is committed by blacks and hispanics - a tough subject - must be discussed."

Where does he mention illegal immigrants in any of these?

Did you listen to it live Billy? Did you watch the rally that portion was taken from? Plus, he clarified it for the "triggered" afterwards, lol:

"Many fabulous people come in from Mexico and our country is better for it. But these people are here legally, and are severely hurt by those coming in illegally," wrote Trump. "I am proud to say that I know many hard working Mexicans—many of them are working for and with me…and, just like our country, my organization is better for it."

http://uk.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-epic-statement-on-mexico-2015-7?r=US&IR=T#ixzz3fF897ElH

ancapailldorcha

Back on topic please.

Amazingfun

Christy42 wrote: »

The people trafficking them I imagine. Do all illegal immigrants from Mexico immediately try and help others across the border? If it was me I would get away from anything to do with the border ASAP if I was an illegal immigrant.

Maybe shutting down the gangs might be a better option. I really fail to see why someone working illegally in the restaurant is getting the blame. Or the victims themselves given they are also illegal immigrants from Mexico.

This is why I continue to be mystified by your commentary on this. Do you really claim all victims of illegal violence are their fellow illegals?
That is not true at all. Trump has had many American families at his rallys who have shared their terrible stories of losing children, etc, at the hands of illegals.

Christy42

Amazingfun wrote: »

[/B]

This is why I continue to be mystified by your commentary on this. Do you really claim all victims of illegal violence are their fellow illegals?
That is not true at all. Trump has had many American families at his rallys who have shared their terrible stories of losing children, etc, at the hands of illegals.

No. No I did not say that. I did not say that thsee rapes are because of illegal immigrants nor did I say that they are the only victims. I said calling illegal immigrants rapists implies that you are also calling the illegal immigrants who were raped rapists.
The story of the illegal immigrants being raped was brought up by Trump not me.

Billy86

EDIT: ancapailldorcha, I am assuming you are referring to the border crossing issues, as opposed to Trumps statements on Mexicans a few posts up? Please let me know if otherwise and I will delete.

Amazingfun wrote: »

Did you listen to it live Billy? Did you watch the rally that portion was taken from? Plus, he clarified it for the "triggered" afterwards, lol:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-epic-statement-on-mexico-2015-7?r=US&IR=T#ixzz3fF897ElH

Here's that full transcript for you, and the comment in full.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/06/16/full-text-donald-trump-announces-a-presidential-bid/

"Thank you. It's true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we're getting. And it only makes common sense. It only makes common sense. They're sending us not the right people.

It's coming from more than Mexico. It's coming from all over South and Latin America, and it's coming probably -- probably -- from the Middle East. But we don't know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don't know what's happening. And it's got to stop and it's got to stop fast."

I did a word search and came up with only one result for the word 'illegal' by the way:

I will immediately terminate President Obama's illegal executive order on immigration, immediately.

So where in it does he say that it is only illegals he is talking about, exactly? You seem confident that you know the speech quite well, so it should be easy for you to find where in it he mentions that.

ancapailldorcha

Billy86 wrote: »

EDIT: ancapailldorcha, I am assuming you are referring to the border crossing issues, as opposed to Trumps statements on Mexicans a few posts up? Please let me know if otherwise and I will delete.

I don't want the conversation to stray too far down this road. It's relevant but not the main purpose of the thread.

KingBrian2

The reason so many Mexicans find themselves in the US is that Americans have a very bad education. They don't seem to know where the border is.:rolleyes:

BoJack Horseman

I'm guessing people are aware of some story out of Nevada for the Dems...

Seen this today on the Gawkerverse....
Issues regarding barring of delegates & abuse of the state party chair.

The Nevada Dem organisation put up a dropbox folder with some of the abuse...
The voicemails are a larf...
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/plk8x3hugdasxl4/AABtyUqg1UXol-hVRRBVTwFFa?dl=0

rifts will need to be healed.

RobertKK

CNN showed a new poll.

For the first time Trump leads Clinton.
Clinton 42%
Trump 45%

Sanders lead over Trump has been cut:
Trump 42%
Sanders 46%
The gap was 14% in the difference so the trend is Trump is gaining.

Akrasia

RobertKK wrote: »

CNN showed a new poll.

For the first time Trump leads Clinton.
Clinton 42%
Trump 45%

Sanders lead over Trump has been cut:
Trump 42%
Sanders 46%
The gap was 14% in the difference so the trend is Trump is gaining.

I think the Sanders fall is due to the appalling negative campaigning by Clinton and her media backers. Constant claims that he supports violence, and that he's damaging Clinton's campaign by not dropping out of the race. This is turning Clinton supporters against Sanders, and it's turning Sanders supporters against Clinton, but I think in a General Election Sanders would still be by far the better candidate against Trump.

Clinton's popularity is in free fall. People hate her and the only reason she's not being humiliated in the GE polls, is because people hate Trump too.

Yesterday the depositions began in the civil lawsuit against Clinton led by judicial watch. The email scandal is going to utterly destroy her credibility before the general election.

Christy42

RobertKK wrote: »

CNN showed a new poll.

For the first time Trump leads Clinton.
Clinton 42%
Trump 45%

Sanders lead over Trump has been cut:
Trump 42%
Sanders 46%
The gap was 14% in the difference so the trend is Trump is gaining.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/16/politics/trump-clinton-tight-race-in-georgia/

Please tell me that isn't the poll you were referencing. Please.

If it is your post is outright distorting the facts to make Trump look good.

This poll was taken in Georgia. If Trump managed to lose Georgia then the election will have been a massacre overall.

If it isn't the right poll could you link the correct one please. That was the only cnn poll with figures similar to the ones you posted.

Akrasia

Christy42 wrote: »

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/16/politics/trump-clinton-tight-race-in-georgia/

Please tell me that isn't the poll you were referencing. Please.

If it is your post is outright distorting the facts to make Trump look good.

This poll was taken in Georgia. If Trump managed to lose Georgia then the election will have been a massacre overall.

If it isn't the right poll could you link the correct one please. That was the only cnn poll with figures similar to the ones you posted.

There was a fox news poll. i think Robert got mixed up

Here's the fox poll
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/05/18/fox-news-poll-trump-tops-clinton-both-seen-as-deeply-flawed-candidates.html

Edit, incidentally, that CNN poll shows Sanders beating Trump in Georgia by 6 points, which is another reason why Clinton should drop out of the Democrat race and let Sanders take the nomination

Christy42

Akrasia wrote: »

There was a fox news poll. i think Robert got mixed up

Here's the fox poll
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/05/18/fox-news-poll-trump-tops-clinton-both-seen-as-deeply-flawed-candidates.html

Edit, incidentally, that CNN poll shows Sanders beating Trump in Georgia by 6 points, which is another reason why Clinton should drop out of the Democrat race and let Sanders take the nomination

Eh fair enough but less impressive. I expect Fox news to have polls that favour Trump (just as I expect CNN to favour Hillary which was part of my surprise at Trump being ahead in a cnn poll).

While if I was American I would have voted Sanders (though I feel he should have done more to condemn the death threats in Nevada) the most accurate polls are at the ballot box which is where Hillary is winning over Sanders.

Akrasia

Christy42 wrote: »

Eh fair enough but less impressive. I expect Fox news to have polls that favour Trump (just as I expect CNN to favour Hillary which was part of my surprise at Trump being ahead in a cnn poll).

While if I was American I would have voted Sanders (though I feel he should have done more to condemn the death threats in Nevada) the most accurate polls are at the ballot box which is where Hillary is winning over Sanders.

The polling companies who work on behalf of the TV news stations shouldn't be biasing their sample towards their own viewers. I'd expect the reporting to be biased, but the polls themselves should be relatively neutral. The biases are mainly in the methodology and samples chosen, for example, a poll that relied mostly on landlines would be biased towards the opinions of older, more settled voters, while an online poll would be biased towards younger and more engaged voters.

BoJack Horseman

Akrasia wrote: »

a poll that relied mostly on landlines would be biased towards the opinions of older, more settled voters, while an online poll would be biased towards younger and more engaged voters.

What is it about owning a landline that lowers ones personal engagement?

Christy42

Akrasia wrote: »

The polling companies who work on behalf of the TV news stations shouldn't be biasing their sample towards their own viewers. I'd expect the reporting to be biased, but the polls themselves should be relatively neutral. The biases are mainly in the methodology and samples chosen, for example, a poll that relied mostly on landlines would be biased towards the opinions of older, more settled voters, while an online poll would be biased towards younger and more engaged voters.

They shouldn't be but are. Compare a load of Fox polls versus CNN. Placed like fivethirtyeight remove the bias from different locations quite well but I can't find their article on it right now.

I would put good money on the next nationwide CNN poll showing Hillary in front.

Akrasia

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

What is it about owning a landline that lowers ones personal engagement?

Nothing, but being online increases your personal engagement. You're more likely to be deliberately seeking out that information and engaging in it.

Billy86

Akrasia wrote: »

I think the Sanders fall is due to the appalling negative campaigning by Clinton and her media backers. Constant claims that he supports violence, and that he's damaging Clinton's campaign by not dropping out of the race. This is turning Clinton supporters against Sanders, and it's turning Sanders supporters against Clinton, but I think in a General Election Sanders would still be by far the better candidate against Trump.

Clinton's popularity is in free fall. People hate her and the only reason she's not being humiliated in the GE polls, is because people hate Trump too.

Yesterday the depositions began in the civil lawsuit against Clinton led by judicial watch. The email scandal is going to utterly destroy her credibility before the general election.

Just how badly Clinton has handled this campaign is nothing short of stunning - anyone complaining that she got passed over for a 'shiny new toy' in 2008 can kindly feck off after what we have seen. She's had it wrapped up for weeks by this stage, at this point she should be looking to play 'gracious winner' and trying to win over Sanders supporters. Instead she seems far too interested in how she is viewed, but from a negative/paranoid point of view, and is doing the opposite.

Makes you wonder what her PR folk and campaign strategists are even thinking (or how many hairs they have left, if she is doing this against their advice).

Suryavarman

Akrasia wrote: »

I think the Sanders fall is due to the appalling negative campaigning by Clinton and her media backers. Constant claims that he supports violence, and that he's damaging Clinton's campaign by not dropping out of the race. This is turning Clinton supporters against Sanders, and it's turning Sanders supporters against Clinton, but I think in a General Election Sanders would still be by far the better candidate against Trump.

Clinton's popularity is in free fall. People hate her and the only reason she's not being humiliated in the GE polls, is because people hate Trump too.

Yesterday the depositions began in the civil lawsuit against Clinton led by judicial watch. The email scandal is going to utterly destroy her credibility before the general election.

His recent fall is due to negative campaigning but in a general election he's going to suddenly become immune to the negative campaigning? The only reason Sanders is performing better in these polls is because the Republicans have been attacking Clinton and her husband for 25 years whereas they've never even attacked Sanders.

K-9

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

What is it about owning a landline that lowers ones personal engagement?

Probably tends to be an older demographic that have landlines these days, plus less and less people have one.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/opinion/sunday/whats-the-matter-with-polling.html?referer=

It's a bit like the problem with online polling except in reverse.

eire4

Suryavarman wrote: »

His recent fall is due to negative campaigning but in a general election he's going to suddenly become immune to the negative campaigning? The only reason Sanders is performing better in these polls is because the Republicans have been attacking Clinton and her husband for 25 years whereas they've never even attacked Sanders.

That is the line that the corporate Democrats like Clinton and the party leadership keep trotting out for sure. It is an opinion but that is all it is an opinion.