2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP

Billy86

KingBrian2 wrote: »

As I said before Trump has been opposed to Jihadism and Jihadism is the same as Islamism. You keep leaving that part of his message out.

No Brian, you said Trump was "all for religious toleration".

Apart from those intolerable Muslims, of course. Not jihadists Brian, not terrorists Brian, not extremists Brian, not Islamists Brian.

Muslims Brian, plain and simple.

So for probably at least the 7th or 8th time of asking now Brian, where does the below mention Islamists, terrorists or extremists specifically?

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

DONALD J. TRUMP STATEMENT ON PREVENTING MUSLIM IMMIGRATION

(New York, NY) December 7th, 2015, -- Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on. According to Pew Research, among others, there is great hatred towards Americans by large segments of the Muslim population. Most recently, a poll from the Center for Security Policy released data showing "25% of those polled agreed that violence against Americans here in the United States is justified as a part of the global jihad" and 51% of those polled, "agreed that Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to Shariah." Shariah authorizes such atrocities as murder against non-believers who won't convert, beheadings and more unthinkable acts that pose great harm to Americans, especially women.

Mr. Trump stated, "Without looking at the various polling data, it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine. Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life. If I win the election for President, we are going to Make America Great Again." - Donald J. Trump

K-9

Mod:

Can we please refer to candidates by their names thanks, best to nip this in the bud now in case it takes over the thread.

KingBrian2

Billy86 wrote: »

No Brian, you said Trump was "all for religious toleration".

Apart from those intolerable Muslims, of course. Not jihadists Brian, not terrorists Brian, not extremists Brian, not Islamists Brian.

Muslims Brian, plain and simple.

So for probably at least the 7th or 8th time of asking now Brian, where does the below mention Islamists, terrorists or extremists specifically?

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life.

This is what he said and you keep omitting. He mentioned Jihad and those that believe in Jihad and only Islamists believe in Jihad. They have no place in society be they Muslims, Wahhabists, Shi'ite Muslims such as the much maligned Hezbollah organization. I would refer you to the common Arabic term Takfiri.

http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2319

Billy86

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life.

This is what he said and you keep omitting. He mentioned Jihad and those that believe in Jihad and only Islamists believe in Jihad. They have no place in society be they Muslims, Wahhabists, Shi'ite Muslims such as the much maligned Hezbollah organization. I would refer you to the common Arabic term Takfiri.

http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2319

Wrong, Brian... try again. Nowhere does your text show him specifically mentioning Islamists or Jihadists. He keeps repeating Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, Muslim... and then says "people that believe only in Jihad". It's a blanket statement, and I'm not even going to give you the benefit of the doubt this time Brian, because even you know what he is getting at.



How selective can your reading possibly be by the way, Brian? I included that in the post you quoted, and included it almost every single time I cited the statement. It would almost seem as if you are clutching at straws, seeing as how you never cited it before and are trying to lie by claiming I did not include it when it right there in all of my posts. You know you are wrong claiming Trump is "all for religious toleration" but you'd rather humiliate yourself like you are than admit you were wrong, just like in the Ukraine thread a few weeks back. It's amusing. You do know how written forums work, right?

Here's the thing =Brian... does he call for only Jihadists or Islamists to not be allowed entry? Or is the literal, actual, official name of the statement "DONALD J. TRUMP STATEMENT ON PREVENTING MUSLIM IMMIGRATION" and only ever mention MUSLIMS as a specific, and three times at that?

Because you still have not cited anywhere where he says he only wants to ban extremists, Jihadists, terrorists or Islamists. The reason for that is because he doesn't only want to ban them - he wants to ban all Muslims.

How exactly you consider banning an entire religious group of people from entering your country to be 'religious toleration' I have no idea, but I do find it worrying that your considered Hitler tolerant of the Jews when all he wanted to do was get rid of them, before moving on to his 'final' solution.

KingBrian2

Billy86 wrote: »

Wrong, Brian... try again. Nowhere does your text show him specifically mentioning Islamists or Jihadists. He keeps repeating Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, Muslim... and then says "people that believe only in Jihad". It's a blanket statement, and I'm not even going to give you the benefit of the doubt this time Brian, because even you know what he is getting at.



How selective can your reading possibly be by the way, Brian? I included that in the post you quoted, and included it almost every single time I cited the statement. It would almost seem as if you are clutching at straws, seeing as how you never cited it before and are trying to lie by claiming I did not include it when it right there in all of my posts. You know you are wrong claiming Trump is "all for religious toleration" but you'd rather humiliate yourself like you are than admit you were wrong, just like in the Ukraine thread a few weeks back. It's amusing. You do know how written forums work, right?

Here's the thing =Brian... does he call for only Jihadists or Islamists to not be allowed entry? Or is the literal, actual, official name of the statement "DONALD J. TRUMP STATEMENT ON PREVENTING MUSLIM IMMIGRATION" and only ever mention MUSLIMS as a specific, and three times at that?

Because you still have not cited anywhere where he says he only wants to ban extremists, Jihadists, terrorists or Islamists. The reason for that is because he doesn't only want to ban them - he wants to ban all Muslims.

How exactly you consider banning an entire religious group of people from entering your country to be 'religious toleration' I have no idea, but I do find it worrying that your considered Hitler tolerant of the Jews when all he wanted to do was get rid of them, before moving on to his 'final' solution.

Donald Trump is not against all Muslims entering he explicitly stated the Jihadists are the problem and not be allowed enter. It was the media outlet that mentioned Muslims. They quoted him speaking about the Jihadists.

Are you saying it is okay for Jihadists to be allowed enter the US or Europe is that what you are suggesting?

Billy86

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Donald Trump is not against all Muslims entering

Brian... this is embarrassing by now. See below.

he explicitly stated the Jihadists are the problem and not be allowed enter.

He specifically says Muslims are not allowed to enter. It is literally the title of the entire statement.

It was the media outlet that mentioned Muslims.

I said you would do this earlier in the thread, try to discredit the source.

Brian, the source - the "media outlet" - is literally Donald Trump's own personal, official website.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

You are literally saying Donald Trump never said what Donald Trump said and the only reason it looks like Donald Trump said what Donald Trump said, is because Donald Trump distorted his own words.

They quoted him speaking about the Jihadists.

"They" are his official website Brian. See it here, Brian - https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

Are you saying it is okay for Jihadists to be allowed enter the US or Europe is that what you are suggesting?

You are so bad at this tact that it is painful, Brian.

I am saying banning all Muslims from entering the USA is more or less the polar opposite of being "all for religious toleration" like you are trying to claim.

But sure now here you are trying to claim that Donald Trump is part of the media conspiracy against Donald Trump and is making it sounds like Donald Trump said things that Donald Trump never said. It's pathetic.

THE STATEMENT IN FULL FROM DONALD TRUMPS OFFICIAL WEBSITE:

​DONALD J. TRUMP STATEMENT ON PREVENTING MUSLIM IMMIGRATION

(New York, NY) December 7th, 2015, -- Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on. According to Pew Research, among others, there is great hatred towards Americans by large segments of the Muslim population. Most recently, a poll from the Center for Security Policy released data showing "25% of those polled agreed that violence against Americans here in the United States is justified as a part of the global jihad" and 51% of those polled, "agreed that Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to Shariah." Shariah authorizes such atrocities as murder against non-believers who won't convert, beheadings and more unthinkable acts that pose great harm to Americans, especially women.

Mr. Trump stated, "Without looking at the various polling data, it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine. Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life. If I win the election for President, we are going to Make America Great Again." - Donald J. Trump

Hey Brian, here is a video of him reading the statement in full.

Do you watch Game of Thrones, Brian? I hope you do, because your next best line of nonsense might as well be to claim someone warged into Trump when he was reading his own statement. From his own website. At his own speech. To his own cheering audience.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

...the beauty of supporting a candidate who has absolutely zero consistency on any position: all you have to do is find a time when he said something you feel you can get behind, and ignore all the times when he said the opposite.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Donald Trump is not against all Muslims entering he explicitly stated the Jihadists are the problem and not be allowed enter.

I rest my case.

KingBrian2

Billy86 wrote: »

Brian... this is embarrassing by now. See below.

He specifically says Muslims are not allowed to enter. It is literally the title of the entire statement.

I said you would do this earlier in the thread, try to discredit the source.

Brian, the source - the "media outlet" - is literally Donald Trump's own personal, official website.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

You are literally saying Donald Trump never said what Donald Trump said and the only reason it looks like Donald Trump said what Donald Trump said, is because Donald Trump distorted his own words.

"They" are his official website Brian. See it here, Brian - https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration


You are so bad at this tact that it is painful, Brian.

I am saying banning all Muslims from entering the USA is more or less the polar opposite of being "all for religious toleration" like you are trying to claim.

But sure now here you are trying to claim that Donald Trump is part of the media conspiracy against Donald Trump and is making it sounds like Donald Trump said things that Donald Trump never said. It's pathetic.

THE STATEMENT IN FULL FROM DONALD TRUMPS OFFICIAL WEBSITE:





Hey Brian, here is a video of him reading the statement in full.

Do you watch Game of Thrones, Brian? I hope you do, because your next best line of nonsense might as well be to claim someone warged into Trump when he was reading his own statement. From his own website. At his own speech. To his own cheering audience.

You still have not answered the question I put to you are you okay with Jihadists entering America. You keep referencing the news site. You have not told us if you believe it is okay for Jihadists to enter the US.

It is all about are Muslims good or evil which is a loaded question but you are incapable of answering that one question.

Just a friendly reminder these Jihadists or Takfiri's are homophobic, anti women, pro death penalty, no separation of church or state and reject free speech.

Now given all that do you stand by the position all Muslims be allowed enter the US. If your making that claim say goodbye to civil liberties.

K-9

Blanket banning people based on religion/nationality/colour of skin seems a bit extreme though.

It's a bit ridiculous when a candidate says he'd let the London mayor in because, well I don't actually know! That's just absurd to actually have to say that.

Billy86

KingBrian2 wrote: »

You still have not answered the question I put to you are you okay with Jihadists entering America. You keep referencing the news site. You have not told us if you believe it is okay for Jihadists to enter the US.

Yawn, Brian. Seriously, get better at this. You are really poor at it. Obviously not, Brian.

It is all about are Muslims good or evil which is a loaded question but you are incapable of answering that one question.

Says the guy who still hasn't found the words 'Islamist', 'terrorist', 'jihadist' or 'extremist' as a label for a person or group of people in Trump's own official statement, from Trump's own official website, that Trump himself read out on national TV. Still want to claim Trump's own statement on his own official website added in things that he didn't say or write there, Brian? :pac:

Just a friendly reminder these Jihadists or Takfiri's are homophobic, anti women, pro death penalty, no separation of church or state and reject free speech.

Thanks Brian, I had no idea.

Now given all that do you stand by the position all Muslims be allowed enter the US. If your making that claim say goodbye to civil liberties.

Tell me Brian, are you in favour of banning all Muslims from entering the US?

KingBrian2

K-9 wrote: »

Blanket banning people based on religion/nationality/colour of skin seems a bit extreme though.

It's a bit ridiculous when a candidate says he'd let the London mayor in because, well I don't actually know! That's just absurd to actually have to say that.

Their is some talk in America of some kind of citizen pledge that has to be given by immigrants arriving into America. The big issue with the US is you can chose whatever religion you want to be so you can be as extreme as you like the Federal gvt won't care by comparison France & Germany are way more restrictive on religions. That does not seem to have stemmed the growth of Jihadism. Lets be honest with ourselves the growth in Jihadism was caused by alienating the Muslim communities in the first place and appeasing the most extreme advocates of Jihadism.

KingBrian2

Billy86 wrote: »

Tell me Brian, are you in favour of banning all Muslims from entering the US?

Of course not I am disgusted at the very notion. Oh by the way you should stop getting so temperamental. Anyway back to what I was saying. See you are framing the conversation into emotive terms like all Muslims be banned. The real threats posed to America are by self styled Islamists who believe in their interpretation of the Quran. From an America point of view and Trump speaks on this their are those who do not know the intricacies of Islam. Shia- Sunni divide and the complex history of Iran and US's relationship with that country. The US can only do so much and Muslim countries have to root out the causes for themselves.

Billy86

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Of course not I am disgusted at the very notion. Oh by the way you should stop getting so temperamental. Anyway back to what I was saying.

Then you actually disagree with Trump in relation to his intolerance of Muslims coming into the US.

See you are framing the conversation into emotive terms like all Muslims be banned.

Brian, you seem to have me confused for a Donald Trump speechwriter, or The Donald himself.

The real threats posed to America are by self styled Islamists who believe in their interpretation of the Quran. From an America point of view and Trump speaks on this their are those who do not know the intricacies of Islam. Shia- Sunni divide and the complex history of Iran and US's relationship with that country. The US can only do so much and Muslim countries have to root out the causes for themselves.

...come back to us, Brian.

K-9

@Billy, could you up the standard a little please, stuff like "come back to us Brian" could be taken up the wrong way!

InTheTrees

The First Amendment to the US Constitution is also part of the Bill Of Rights. Its important to understand it. It really is a cornerstone of American life. Some are trying to argue that congress establishing a law to impose a religious test on visitors to the usa would be legal but I don't see how it could apply to US citizens, or even residents who are protected by the constitution.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Billy86

K-9 wrote: »

@Billy, could you up the standard a little please, stuff like "come back to us Brian" could be taken up the wrong way!

Sorry about that, I meant his attempting to sidetrack away from acknowledging Trump's own comments.

KingBrian2

Billy86 wrote: »

Then you actually disagree with Trump in relation to his intolerance of Muslims coming into the US.

Brian, you seem to have me confused for a Donald Trump speechwriter, or The Donald himself.

...come back to us, Brian.

I am putting it to you that Trump is not anti Muslim he is anti Jihadist. You refuse to concede that his comments are directed at extreme Islam as opposed to Muslims themselves.

Trump is a very popular person and part of that is his view that Jihadists are threatening America's security. Now he is putting forward the very controversial belief that this ideology is being exported into the west. In this he bares a strong resemblance with on the left who equally belief Jihadism is a threat across the world.

InTheTrees

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I am putting it to you that Trump is not anti Muslim he is anti Jihadist. You refuse to concede that his comments are directed at extreme Islam as opposed to Muslims themselves.

Well to be fair we've all heard him ranting about banning Muslims from entering the USA. Even US citizens who happen to be muslim.

Fr Tod Umptious

Does anybody really think that a Trump presidency would put an outright ban on Muslims entering the US (until we sort this out) ?

It ain't going to happen.

It's just another election promise. I don't know why ye are getting so worked up about it.

KingBrian2

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Does anybody really think that a Trump presidency would put an outright ban on Muslims entering the US (until we sort this out) ?

It ain't going to happen.

It's just another election promise. I don't know why ye are getting so worked up about it.

It's because the liberals want to accuse him of being a totally out of tough dangerous Islamophobe. Is it a bad position to hold to not want the Muslim Brotherhood set up shop in the US of A?

B_Wayne

KingBrian2 wrote: »

It's because the liberals want to accuse him of being a totally out of tough dangerous Islamophobe. Is it a bad position to hold to not want the Muslim Brotherhood set up shop in the US of A?

Why did he feel the need to offer a special exemption to the Mayor of London? Seems far more like a person applying rule to all Muslims.

Christy42

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Does anybody really think that a Trump presidency would put an outright ban on Muslims entering the US (until we sort this out) ?

It ain't going to happen.

It's just another election promise. I don't know why ye are getting so worked up about it.

If you require a politician to be for them to be palatable then you have issues. Normally the biggest issue with a politician is what if they are lying. Here the worry is if he is telling the truth.

K-9

KingBrian2 wrote: »

It's because the liberals want to accuse him of being a totally out of tough dangerous Islamophobe. Is it a bad position to hold to not want the Muslim Brotherhood set up shop in the US of A?

By banning all Muslims?

K-9

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I am putting it to you that Trump is not anti Muslim he is anti Jihadist. You refuse to concede that his comments are directed at extreme Islam as opposed to Muslims themselves.

Trump is a very popular person and part of that is his view that Jihadists are threatening America's security. Now he is putting forward the very controversial belief that this ideology is being exported into the west. In this he bares a strong resemblance with on the left who equally belief Jihadism is a threat across the world.

The point is that nobody wants to import Jihadism, that you are even asking the question do people want to take in Jihadism, or the Muslim Brotherhood shows how stupid his ideas are.

He's going after Jihadism by picking on all Muslims, not targeting the extremists. As for that policy being lies, the thing is he keeps repeating it. He was at it again last week at a veterans meeting.

Fr Tod Umptious

K-9 wrote: »

The point is that nobody wants to import Jihadism, that you are even asking the question do people want to take in Jihadism, or the Muslim Brotherhood shows how stupid his ideas are.

He's going after Jihadism by picking on all Muslims, not targeting the extremists. As for that policy being lies, the thing is he keeps repeating it. He was at it again last week at a veterans meeting.

He keeps repeating it because there is an appetite for rhetoric around internal security.

Radical Islam is a real threat to western society and people are rightly worried by it.

Anny one who advocates curbs on Islam or Muslims is going to be listened to.

20Cent

No one expects jihadis to invade a western country particularly the US d day style. Even 100 911 type attacks isn't going to turn it into an Islamic state. What they can do is polarise the moderates by over reaction to Islamic terror. Even Bin Laden knew the best strategy for them is to create distrust and hatred between the west and Islam. Trump is playing right into their hands with his rhetoric and supposed proposals. It's often the reaction to a terrorist attack that creates more damage then the attack itself.

K-9

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

He keeps repeating it because there is an appetite for rhetoric around internal security.

Radical Islam is a real threat to western society and people are rightly worried by it.

Anny one who advocates curbs on Islam or Muslims is going to be listened to.

He isn't advocating curbs though, that's the point.

But again, I'm arguing policy when it has nothing to do with Trumo support.

FA Hayek

Brian? wrote: »

I'll stop you there. There is nothing wrong with being intolerant. It's almost a virtue. I'm intolerant of violence, inequality, prejudice and bigotry. Among other things.

No one is claiming to be the bastion of tolerance here. I'm faulty intolerant of Trump and his supporters and see nothing wrong with it. It's bigotry and hatred these protestors were protesting, not intolerance.

Wow, just wow! See this is one of the reasons why Trump is so popular, its this kind of smugness and cocky assuredness of people who think they speak for others when they have no idea really what the working class man on the street really thinks or goes through.

Vox of all places did a write up about this. Worth a read.
http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism

Finding comfort in the notion that their former allies were disdainful, hapless rubes, smug liberals created a culture animated by that contempt. The result is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Smacks the ball out of the park and it would be worth reading it before the usual retort of 'they are all racists, so I'm always right'.

Fr Tod Umptious

K-9 wrote: »

He isn't advocating curbs though, that's the point.

But again, I'm arguing policy when it has nothing to do with Trumo support.

The curbs will come when he is president.

It won't be an all out ban, but will be greater scrutiny of visa applications, greater intelligence gathering etc.

Fr Tod Umptious

20Cent wrote: »

No one expects jihadis to invade a western country particularly the US d day style. Even 100 911 type attacks isn't going to turn it into an Islamic state. What they can do is polarise the moderates by over reaction to Islamic terror. Even Bin Laden knew the best strategy for them is to create distrust and hatred between the west and Islam. Trump is playing right into their hands with his rhetoric and supposed proposals. It's often the reaction to a terrorist attack that creates more damage then the attack itself.

No one is suggesting a traditional "invasion".

The threads I am taking about are bombs at transport hubs, sports events, murders of people out on a Friday night, all in the name of Islam.

That's what ordinary people are worried about and they have every right to be worried about it.