2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP

Amerika

Brian? wrote: »

Have you a link to that investigation?

I believe this is what you are looking for.

A former Justice Department attorney who quit his job to protest the Obama administration's handling of the New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case is accusing Attorney General Eric Holder of dropping the charges for racially motivated reasons.

J. Christian Adams, now an attorney in Virginia and a conservative blogger for Pajamas Media, says he and the other Justice Department lawyers working on the case were ordered to dismiss it.


Adams told Fox News that the New Black Panther case was the "easiest I ever had at the Justice Department."

"It doesn't get any easier than this," he said. "If this doesn't constitute voter intimidation, nothing will."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203550604574361071968458430

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/30/justice-dept-lawyer-accuses-holder-dropping-new-black-panther-case-political/

alaimacerc

Amerika wrote: »

Being as we have one of the most corrupt and powerful cities when it come to voting, in Philadelphia (which in fact dictates at the polls how the state goes -- due to it’s massive population), I guess you'd have to rationalize that the law was not struck down because it unreasonably burdened the fundamental right to vote, but rather to protect voter fraud.

"Rationalise" must surely qualify as a Freudian slip here, as that's precisely what you're doing. What say we instead reason? Or at least, hit a search engine:

Two minutes of google-grade research wrote:

Following a trial in the summer of 2013 and a six-month delay, Commonwealth Court Judge Bernard L. McGinley struck down Pennsylvania's voter ID law as violative of the constitutional rights of state voters on January 17, 2014. Required IDs were only available through 71 PennDOT Drivers Licensing Centers across the state. Five of the 71 DLCs are located in Philadelphia, nine counties have no DLCs at all, and DLCs are open only one day per week in nine counties and two days per week thirteen counties. The Pennsylvania Department of State provided too little access, no financial support to providing IDs to those without access, and no alternatives to obtaining the required IDs. Judge McGinley found that this leaves about half of Pennsylvania without DLCs for five days a week, imposing a significant barrier to obtaining Pennsylvania's "free ID".

Any rebuttal from your "rationale"?

alaimacerc

jank wrote: »

Which was in a lose reference to Americans requiring a drivers license.
It is up to the original poster to prove these claims now as I have provided data to show that not only does the average American have a car but they are MORE likely than an Irish person to have a car, thus more likely to have a drivers license...

It actually tells us very little unless we know the distribution, as well as the average. And owning a car is further away from the key point still: you could have a one-car, or even a no-car household, with several adults all with a licence. As well as, as was pointed out, one person owning many, many cars.

And all this is just one type of ID, returning us to:

jank wrote: »

Which means I am correct, you need to have an I.D

... did you actually read the rest of the post? ID that is not checked is, necessarily, not something you "have to have".

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/referenda/voting_in_a_referendum.html

C.I. wrote:

Personal identification
You must bring a valid form of personal identification, such as a passport or driving licence, with you when you go to vote.

Do you see where it says "such as"? Did you notice the long list of other acceptable forms of ID I posted? Need another source on that, or would you be ignoring that too?

Thus, the point remains: Texas wished to impose a requirement for ID that 7.5% of its voter roll did not have. What's your evidence that a comparable number of Irish people lack any of the many forms of acceptable ID? (In the unlikely event one is ever actually asked for anything at all.)

alaimacerc

More on Ireland's onerous ID requirements:

Journal.ie wrote:

Aside from passport or driving licence, types of acceptable ID include an employee identity card containing a photograph, a student identity card issued by an educational institution and with a photograph, a travel document containing a name and photograph, or a bank or savings or credit union book containing your address in the constituency. It’s also acceptable to show a cheque book, a cheque card, a credit card, a birth certificate or a marriage certificate, as long as it’s accompanied by another document which confirms your address in the constituency.

Irish Examiner wrote:

The following documents will be accepted to confirm a voter’s identity at a polling station:

• a passport
• a driving licence
• an employee identity card containing a photograph
• a student identity card issued by an educational institution and containing a photograph
• a travel document containing name and photograph
• a Bank or Savings or Credit Union book containing address in constituency or local electoral area
• a Public Services Card
• a cheque book
• a cheque card
• a credit card
• a birth certificate
• a marriage certificate.

Irish Independent wrote:

A form of official photographic ID is recommended, such as a driving licence, passport, employers ID, student ID, bank documentation, marriage or birth certificate.

Amerika

alaimacerc wrote: »

"Rationalise" must surely qualify as a Freudian slip here, as that's precisely what you're doing. What say we instead reason? Or at least, hit a search engine:



Any rebuttal from your "rationale"?

71? Seem like a lot. Of course come to think of it I will pass by 3 of them on my 30 minute trip into work.

And we do have something called public transportation which is supplemented by the state and is utilized by many to get all their other goods and services. Or is it only a burden when it comes to getting a voter ID?

jank

alaimacerc wrote: »

It actually tells us very little unless we know the distribution, as well as the average. And owning a car is further away from the key point still: you could have a one-car, or even a no-car household, with several adults all with a licence. As well as, as was pointed out, one person owning many, many cars.

All well and good but it was the other poster who made the comment about the 'average American' owning a car, not me. So if you have a beef, take it up with him. I have provided stats proving my point which rubbished his. Everything else is poor attempt to poison the well.

alaimacerc wrote: »

... did you actually read the rest of the post? ID that is not checked is, necessarily, not something you "have to have".

No, you have to have ID on you to vote as per state guidelines and rules as I originally stated. Everything is if's and but's

Soyokakano

I don't mean to sound sexist here but will American really elect a female president? Clinton seems to be the hot favorite but when it comes down to polling day. Will american cast a ballot for Hillary Clinton?

eire4

Soyokakano wrote: »

I don't mean to sound sexist here but will American really elect a female president? Clinton seems to be the hot favorite but when it comes down to polling day. Will american cast a ballot for Hillary Clinton?

Well she still has to win the Democratic nomination first and while she is still the firm favourite to do so it is not a foregone conclusion at this point as it maybe seemed to be a few months ago.

alaimacerc

jank wrote: »

All well and good but it was the other poster who made the comment about the 'average American' owning a car, not me. So if you have a beef, take it up with him. I have provided stats proving my point which rubbished his.

You did not. I've explained why in some considerable detail. You've doggedly seized on a subsidiary point that doesn't even prove what you think it does, while ignoring the broader one.

Irish ID laws are not remotely comparable to the attempts at mass disenfranchisement happening in the US. 7.5% of people lack the ID they attempted to require in Texas. As opposed to how many in Ireland?

Everything else is poor attempt to poison the well.

What the heck is that even supposed to mean? It's unfair to point out that Republicans are suppressing legitimate voting under the guise of "voter fraud", because we might think less of them as a result? Maybe they should have thought of that before they started doing it, then.

No, you have to have ID on you to vote as per state guidelines and rules as I originally stated. Everything is if's and but's

Eh, no. It's known as "eye witness testimony". You may be asked for ID; typically you are not. And if you are, a wide range of ID is acceptable, that almost everyone has at least one of. Unlike the US situation.

Amerika

Hillary Clinton claims to be for the little people, but actions speak louder than words.

http://nypost.com/2015/06/20/hillary-clintons-shameful-charge-to-a-childrens-charity/

I wonder if she'll get the Romney treatment from the media in this election. I suspect most people will never hear about this, and for the few outlets brave enough to report on it, it will be all but forgotten in a week.

The Black Oil

Wonder if having such a range of candidates could be a smart move for the Republicans, or else they're going to shoot themselves in the foot. The cream will rise to the top, or they'll find it hard to focus on one person with an appealing message.

AbusesToilets

It's hard to imagine that any Republican candidate will be able to win the primaries without catering to the Tea Party/ ultra conservative wing of their voters. That has been poison for them in the general election the last 2 go arounds. They seem so hamstrung by their stance on social issues and adherence to promoting economic policies that are so nakedly in favor of their rich backers.

eire4

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It's hard to imagine that any Republican candidate will be able to win the primaries without catering to the Tea Party/ ultra conservative wing of their voters. That has been poison for them in the general election the last 2 go arounds. They seem so hamstrung by their stance on social issues and adherence to promoting economic policies that are so nakedly in favor of their rich backers.

Not that money was not a corrupting force in US politics prior to citizens united but it's fair to say now that big business and wealthy individuals pretty much have the majority of congress in their pockets at this point.

Brian?

Things are about to get a hell of lot more entertaining on the Democrat side:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jul/1/joe-biden-likely-to-join-2016-white-house-race-nex/?page=all


I for one hope Diamond Joe makes a run. Legend.

eire4

Brian? wrote: »

Things are about to get a hell of lot more entertaining on the Democrat side:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jul/1/joe-biden-likely-to-join-2016-white-house-race-nex/?page=all


I for one hope Diamond Joe makes a run. Legend.

He certainly has been know to speak his mind unfiltered from time to time not something you get very often from politicans.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

And we do have something called public transportation which is supplemented by the state and is utilized by many to get all their other goods and services. Or is it only a burden when it comes to getting a voter ID?

Show me the bus route that takes me from the counties with no coverage in the ID schema to Philadelphia.

What a red herring.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

Show me the bus route that takes me from the counties with no coverage in the ID schema to Philadelphia.

What a red herring.

Show me the counties with no coverage and I could show you the bus routes to the nearest locations. I doubt they would need to go to Philadelphia, as these remote rural counties are accustomed to traveling a little bit to get the goods and services needed.

This might be a shock to everyone here, but those people in the remote counties of PA aren’t forced to live off the land... and actually do buy alcohol, do open bank accounts, go get food stamps, do get welfare and medicare and social security and unemployment benefits. They even get mortgages, drive cars, have cell phones, take airplane trips, and believe it or not they do get married (and not only to their cousins). All of which requires a photo ID.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Show me the counties with no coverage and I could show you the bus routes to the nearest locations. I doubt they would need to go to Philadelphia, as these remote rural counties are accustomed to traveling a little bit to get the goods and services needed.

I have the privilege of placing the burden of proof on you, the claimant.

This might be a shock to everyone here, but those people in the remote counties of PA aren’t forced to live off the land... and actually do buy alcohol, do open bank accounts, go get food stamps, do get welfare and medicare and social security and unemployment benefits. They even get mortgages, drive cars, have cell phones, take airplane trips, and believe it or not they do get married (and not only to their cousins). All of which requires a photo ID.

A Photo ID which requires:

1. A completed Form DL-54A, “Application for Initial Photo Identification Card.”
2. Acceptable Proof of Identification (PDF: http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/pub195us.pdf)
3. Your Social Security Card
4. A check or money order payable to PennDOT for the appropriate fee (cash is not accepted) and, if you are 18 or older, two acceptable forms of address verification are required.

The highlight of acceptable proof is a raised-seal birth certificate, form N-550, N-560, or N-570, a US Passport (which itself has a list of requirements) or for an adult you also need some form of tax record (which requires income, paper trail, etc), lease agreement (which requires ID), mortgage papers (which you ironically listed), a W-2 form, Weapons Permit, or Utility Bill.

The fact is that you can skate by without having these things in your posession. Further, you would essentially need internet access to be able to tell ahead of time what to bring to the DMV, or else suffer 2 or more trips. Compounded by aforementioned DLC availability issues, including DLCs that are only open 1 day a week, or are located in other counties.

tl;dr nobody is saying it was a bad thought, but PA's execution of their plan lacked credibility. It would make more sense if say, PA started issuing non-DL state IDs at police stations which are located in every municipality and county.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

I have the privilege of placing the burden of proof on you, the claimant.

Exactly what claim did I make?

A Photo ID which requires:

1. A completed Form DL-54A, “Application for Initial Photo Identification Card.”
2. Acceptable Proof of Identification (PDF: http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/pub195us.pdf)
3. Your Social Security Card
4. A check or money order payable to PennDOT for the appropriate fee (cash is not accepted) and, if you are 18 or older, two acceptable forms of address verification are required.

The highlight of acceptable proof is a raised-seal birth certificate, form N-550, N-560, or N-570, a US Passport (which itself has a list of requirements) or for an adult you also need some form of tax record (which requires income, paper trail, etc), lease agreement (which requires ID), mortgage papers (which you ironically listed), a W-2 form, Weapons Permit, or Utility Bill.

The fact is that you can skate by without having these things in your posession. Further, you would essentially need internet access to be able to tell ahead of time what to bring to the DMV, or else suffer 2 or more trips. Compounded by aforementioned DLC availability issues, including DLCs that are only open 1 day a week, or are located in other counties.

tl;dr nobody is saying it was a bad thought, but PA's execution of their plan lacked credibility. It would make more sense if say, PA started issuing non-DL state IDs at police stations which are located in every municipality and county.

Most everyone here over the age of 18 has a photo ID because they have taken advantage of at least one of the things I mentioned earlier that requires it. The claim that it is difficult to get, once every three years, is the real red herring.

20Cent

Just out of interest any theories about what Donald Trump is doing? Presumed he was just running for the publicity but the stuff he is saying is turning really bad for his businesses. A pr stunt backfiring, is he serious, mad or all three! Can't figure him out.

Brian?

20Cent wrote: »

Just out of interest any theories about what Donald Trump is doing? Presumed he was just running for the publicity but the stuff he is saying is turning really bad for his businesses. A pr stunt backfiring, is he serious, mad or all three! Can't figure him out.

He's not stupid, I know that much. I can only believe he's surrounded by a coterie of yes men who feed his egomania.

Amerika

20Cent wrote: »

Just out of interest any theories about what Donald Trump is doing? Presumed he was just running for the publicity but the stuff he is saying is turning really bad for his businesses. A pr stunt backfiring, is he serious, mad or all three! Can't figure him out.

From what I know so far, here are Trump's plans as president.

• Repeal Obamacare and replace it with something that benefits everybody.
• Turn off that spigot of sending money to China (in the form of debt payments) by taxing them until they behave properly.
• Renegotiate our foreign trade deals.
• End President Barack Obama's executive actions on immigration.
• End border crossings from Mexico by building a secure wall, and have Mexico pay for that wall.
• Work hard on the Islamic State problem.
• Stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons.
• Find the General Patton or General MacArthur like military leader from within the U.S. armed forces to make things work better in the Middle East.
• Rebuild the country's infrastructure.
• Create jobs.
• Save Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security without cuts.
• Protect the Second Amendment.
• Take the brand of the United States and make it great again.

All sounds pretty good to me, and most resonate well with the voters. Nothing 'crazy' there. Now if he actually has a way to pull most of it off, then he would be worthy of the top spot IMO.

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

From what I know so far, here are Trump's plans as president.

• Repeal Obamacare and replace it with something that benefits everybody.
• Turn off that spigot of sending money to China (in the form of debt payments) by taxing them until they behave properly.
• Renegotiate our foreign trade deals.
• End President Barack Obama's executive actions on immigration.
• End border crossings from Mexico by building a secure wall, and have Mexico pay for that wall.
• Work hard on the Islamic State problem.
• Stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons.
• Find the General Patton or General MacArthur like military leader from within the U.S. armed forces to make things work better in the Middle East.
• Rebuild the country's infrastructure.
• Create jobs.
• Save Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security without cuts.
• Protect the Second Amendment.
• Take the brand of the United States and make it great again.

All sounds pretty good to me, and most resonate well with the voters. Nothing 'crazy' there. Now if he actually has a way to pull most of it off, then he would be worthy of the top spot IMO.

Are you seriously taken in by Trump? None of those are policies or plans, they're talking points.

Sure why wouldn't Mexico build a 2,000 mile border at their own expense?

Amerika

Brian? wrote: »

Are you seriously taken in by Trump? None of those are policies or plans, they're talking points.

As are everyone else's at this point. The person who's plans have a reasonable chance of working to make the country better will get my vote. I wouldn't care if the he were a she, if they were black or white, yellow, red or brown... or if they wore a tinfoil hat on occasion.

Amerika

Amerika wrote: »

As are everyone else's at this point. The person who's plans have a reasonable chance of working to make the country better will get my vote. I wouldn't care if the he were a she, if they were black or white, yellow, red or brown... or if they wore a tinfoil hat on occasion.

I assume you're expecting all of that to be delivered with no new taxes as well?

PopePalpatine

I wonder where the funding for updating US infrastructure will come from under a Trump administration.

Suryavarman

Amerika wrote: »

From what I know so far, here are Trump's plans as president.

• Repeal Obamacare and replace it with something that benefits everybody.
• Turn off that spigot of sending money to China (in the form of debt payments) by taxing them until they behave properly.
• Renegotiate our foreign trade deals.
• End President Barack Obama's executive actions on immigration.
• End border crossings from Mexico by building a secure wall, and have Mexico pay for that wall.
• Work hard on the Islamic State problem.
• Stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons.
• Find the General Patton or General MacArthur like military leader from within the U.S. armed forces to make things work better in the Middle East.
• Rebuild the country's infrastructure.
• Create jobs.
• Save Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security without cuts.
• Protect the Second Amendment.
• Take the brand of the United States and make it great again.

All sounds pretty good to me, and most resonate well with the voters. Nothing 'crazy' there. Now if he actually has a way to pull most of it off, then he would be worthy of the top spot IMO.

I think Obama has been terrible president. If those policies are anything to go by then Trump would be far worse. He would do far more damage to America's image abroad than any other president in the history of the USA.

Overheal

Brian? wrote: »

Are you seriously taken in by Trump? None of those are policies or plans, they're talking points.

The last one even sounds mildly fascist

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

From what I know so far, here are Trump's plans as president.

• Turn off that spigot of sending money to China (in the form of debt payments) by taxing them until they behave properly.

All sounds pretty good to me, and most resonate well with the voters. Nothing 'crazy' there.

Trumps plan is to stop paying off our debts?

And then taxing China? Until they behave properly? So stopping giving us credit presumably, if we're stopping repayments?

Lunatic.