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2016 US Presidential Race - Mod Warning in OP
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He said he is a traditional catholic and personally opposed to abortion. Look it up more links than one could quote.
His voting record on the issue shows he is not a traditional catholic and his voting record shows if he is he lacks conviction. So he lies either way.
Being personally opposed to abortion does not make you "pro-life" (as that term is used by cynical anti-choice activists), as I explained above. Do you not accept that a person can be opposed to something yet not feel it is their right to impose their belief on everyone else?0 -
Garry Kasparove on Hair Furor and Putin: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/donald-trump-reminds-me-of-vladimir-putin--and-that-is-terrifying/2016/07/23/36397692-50e5-11e6-a7d8-13d06b37f256_story.html
Summary: They're two peas in a pod.
It's much worse than that. Why has Trump been aligning himself with Putin? Follow the money, of course. Trump's empire is heavily leveraged and he has been blackballed by all US banks (only Deutschebank will look at him). Now he is "highly reliant on money from Russia, most of which has over the years become increasingly concentrated among oligarchs and sub-garchs close to Vladimir Putin". Evidence of this might show up in his tax returns, which he refuses to release (which is absolutely unheard of for a candidate for pres, by the way).
There are lots of dots to connect. This is still unfolding, and it will be a major story. So far, though, this a must read: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-putin-yes-it-s-really-a-thing
A few points:The [Trump Soho development] project was the hit with a series of lawsuits in response to some typically Trumpian efforts to defraud investors by making fraudulent claims about the financial health of the project. Emerging out of that litigation however was news about secret financing for the project from Russia and Kazakhstan. Most attention about the project has focused on the presence of a twice imprisoned Russian immigrant with extensive ties to the Russian criminal underworld. But that's not the most salient part of the story. As the Times put it,
"Mr. Lauria brokered a $50 million investment in Trump SoHo and three other Bayrock projects by an Icelandic firm preferred by wealthy Russians “in favor with” President Vladimir V. Putin, according to a lawsuit against Bayrock by one of its former executives. The Icelandic company, FL Group, was identified in a Bayrock investor presentation as a “strategic partner,” along with Alexander Mashkevich, a billionaire once charged in a corruption case involving fees paid by a Belgian company seeking business in Kazakhstan; that case was settled with no admission of guilt."
. . . .
[Trump's campaign manager Paul] Manafort spent most of the last decade as top campaign and communications advisor for Viktor Yanukovych, the pro-Russian Ukrainian Prime Minister and then President whose ouster in 2014 led to the on-going crisis and proxy war in Ukraine. Yanukovych was and remains a close Putin ally. Manafort is running Trump's campaign.
. . . . .
Trump's foreign policy advisor on Russia and Europe is Carter Page, a man whose entire professional career has revolved around investments in Russia and who has deep and continuing financial and employment ties to Gazprom. If you're not familiar with Gazprom, imagine if most or all of the US energy industry were rolled up into a single company and it were personally controlled by the US President who used it as a source of revenue and patronage. That is Gazprom's role in the Russian political and economic system. It is no exaggeration to say that you cannot be involved with Gazprom at the very high level which Page has been without being wholly in alignment with Putin's policies.
. . . . . .
Over the course of the last year, Putin has aligned all Russian state controlled media behind Trump. As Frank Foer explains here, this fits a pattern with how Putin has sought to prop up rightist/nationalist politicians across Europe, often with direct or covert infusions of money. In some cases this is because they support Russia-backed policies; in others it is simply because they sow discord in Western aligned states. Of course, Trump has repeatedly praised Putin, not only in the abstract but often for the authoritarian policies and patterns of government which have most soured his reputation around the world.
. . . . . . .
[O]ne of the most enduring dynamics of GOP conventions (there's a comparable dynamic on the Dem side) is more mainstream nominees battling conservative activists over the party platform. . . . This is one thing that made the Trump convention very different. The Trump Camp was totally indifferent to the platform. So party activists were able to write one of the most conservative platforms in history. Not with Trump's backing but because he simply didn't care. With one big exception: Trump's team mobilized the nominee's traditional mix of cajoling and strong-arming on one point: changing the party platform on assistance to Ukraine against Russian military operations in eastern Ukraine.
In light of all this, Trump's suggestion that the US and thus NATO might not come to the defense of NATO member states in the Baltics in the case of a Russian invasion makes sense.
There's another article about this topic, with even more detail, here:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/vladimir_putin_has_a_plan_for_destroying_the_west_and_it_looks_a_lot_like.html0 -
LostinKildare wrote: »Where does he call himself "pro-life" there?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/22/10-things-you-should-know-about-tim-kaine/I would say people use labels all the time, but I'm kind of a traditional Catholic: Personally I'm opposed to abortion, and personally I'm opposed to the death penalty0 -
LostinKildare wrote: »Being personally opposed to abortion does not make you "pro-life" (as that term is used by cynical anti-choice activists), as I explained above. Do you not accept that a person can be opposed to something yet not feel it is their right to impose their belief on everyone else?
A politician should have conviction for what they believe, otherwise they stand for very little.
Why have views on an issue if personal views don't matter?
It is like his voting record is like that of some FG members who opposed the abortion bill but voted for it because they would have been thrown out of the party.
Kaine's voting record is very similar, voted for his career.
Otherwise why say you are a traditional catholic and opposed to abortion.
His word doesn't stand up, he talked the talk but didn't walk the walk.0 -
Suryavarman wrote: »
Wow, I can't believe you did that. The full quote for the link you provide says,"I would say people use labels all the time, but I'm kind of a traditional Catholic: Personally I'm opposed to abortion, and personally I'm opposed to the death penalty," he said, adding: "I deeply believe -- and not just as a matter of politics, but even as a matter of morality -- that matters about reproduction and intimacy and relationships and contraception are in the personal realm. They're moral decisions for individuals to make for themselves. And the last thing we need is government intruding into those personal decisions."
Which is the very definition of a pro-choice stance.
EDIT: RobertKK wrote, just above: "A politician should have conviction for what they believe, otherwise they stand for very little."
See the quote above, from Kaine himself. That is his stated conviction --- a conviction shared by many many people, including most American Catholics --- and he is true to it. You don't agree, fine.
I'm not going to continue to turn this into an abortion thread. There are loads of other ones on Boards.0 -
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LostinKildare wrote: »Wow, I can't believe you did that. The full quote for the link you provide says,
Which is the very definition of a pro-choice stance.
He's still pro-life. He just votes in a pro-choice manner because it's politically convenient as RobertKK originally said.
The definition of a pro-choice stance is not being opposed to abortion. Tim Kaine has said many times that he is opposed to abortion.0 -
Suryavarman wrote: »
That is an issue for me, he opposed the death penalty but was governor for 11 executions. He said he had to uphold Virginian law but I don't know about others, but as an opponent of the death penalty I wouldn't go for a job where I have to execute people to uphold a law I disagree with.
His actions say his career is more important than what he believes.0 -
Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »Don't expect to hear much about Pence's Irish roots from the Irish media, it just does not suit the narrative that Irish American = Democrat.
We heard very little about Ryan's roots in 2012 but lots about Biden's in 2008 if I recall.
Could it because Biden won and is actually the VP?they/them/theirs
And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek
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LostinKildare wrote: »Wow, I can't believe you did that. The full quote for the link you provide says,
Which is the very definition of a pro-choice stance.
EDIT: RobertKK wrote, just above: "A politician should have conviction for what they believe, otherwise they stand for very little."
See the quote above, from Kaine himself. That is his stated conviction --- a conviction shared by many many people --- and he is true to it. You don't agree, fine.
I'm not going to continue to turn this into an abortion thread. There are loads of other ones on Boards.
That was convenient for him to say, what excuse apart from Virginian law has he for executing 11 people?
Was he required to become the governor?0 -
Kaine used a lot of Spanish in his speech yesterday, seems to have annoyed FOX0
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Could it because Biden won and is actually the VP?
Paul Ryan is the Speaker, I remember when the Irish media would fall over themselves for Tip O'Neill when he was speaker, but he was a Democrat.
The Irish media is pathetic.
Paul Ryan and his family do visit Kilkenny. He also keeps a Kilkenny GAA shirt and a hurl in his Speaker's office.
But he is Republican so he doesn't get the Tip O'Neill fawning by the Irish media.0 -
That is an issue for me, he opposed the death penalty but was governor for 11 executions. He said he had to uphold Virginian law but I don't know about others, but as an opponent of the death penalty I wouldn't go for a job where I have to execute people to uphold a law I disagree with.
His actions say his career is more important than what he believes.
"I really struggled with [capital punishment] as governor. I have a moral position against the death penalty. But I took an oath of office to uphold it. Following an oath of office is also a moral obligation."
Of course, if, as you advocate, only persons who supported the death penalty ever ran for governor of Virginia, there would never be any positive change. Kaine vetoed eight death-penalty expansion bills in the state. Some of his vetoes were overridden, but certainly all would have become law if a death-penalty supporter (read: Republican) had been governor.0 -
LostinKildare wrote: »"I really struggled with [capital punishment] as governor. I have a moral position against the death penalty. But I took an oath of office to uphold it. Following an oath of office is also a moral obligation."
Of course, if, as you advocate, only persons who supported the death penalty ever ran for governor of Virginia, there would never be any positive change. Kaine vetoed eight death-penalty expansion bills in the state. Some of his vetoes were overridden, but certainly all would have become law if a death-penalty supporter (read: Republican) had been governor.
He only has the excuse of the job, a job he didn't have to go for if he didn't want to carry out executions.
Hillary Clinton is a supporter of the death penalty.
It is like his audition for the VP role since he rose to prominence in 2008 began then as he has been showing he can be a lapdog and go against what he believes, but which are conveniently what Hillary believes.
He could not be accused of being a conviction politician.
His record shows he has voted and acted in ways that kept him in line with Hillary Clinton.
Kaine looks like a career politician.0 -
You implied Pence was bought with no evidence. Yet Kaine has a 100% voting record for abortion issues and received money from planned parenthood.
Why is it not different.
Because Planned parenthood is a non-profit organisation that provides healthcare to low income women.
Pence gets money from an agribusiness trade group.
You make your choice right? You see those as identical and a lot of people dont.0 -
Suryavarman wrote: »He's still pro-life. He just votes in a pro-choice manner because it's politically convenient as RobertKK originally said.
The definition of a pro-choice stance is not being opposed to abortion. Tim Kaine has said many times that he is opposed to abortion.
The definition of pro choice is allowing people to choose for themselves. I know plenty of people who would not consider an abortion but have no issue with the service being available for other women. They are all pro choice as is Kaine.
Hence the choice part of pro choice.
Pro life is when you don't want other people to get an abortion (and to enforce this decision via the law).
As for him becoming governed in a state where the death penalty is legal I would hope he has fought to change this. He still needs to be in a position to make the changes he believes in. The point of public office is to be able to make changes and not be a hurler on the ditch. If you agree with the way your area is being run 100% there isn't much point in you going into politics.0 -
Suryavarman wrote: »He's still pro-life. He just votes in a pro-choice manner because it's politically convenient as RobertKK originally said.
Its a womens right to choose.
Thats what the majority of the american people believe as regards abortion. Planned Parenthood is about much more than abortion though.
Respecting a womens right to choose, and the rules set out in Row V Wade is a pretty realistic position that is supported by most voters.0 -
SO what is the Trump/Pence position on abortion?
We have those incoherent comments trump made about how women should be punished, and pence has been against contraception in the past and tried to introduce laws in indiana that required women to have an ultrasound and then discuss the image with a pastor before they could seek an abortion.
So what exactly is the GOP/ Trump/Pence position on abortion and contraception?
Maybe ivanka will come up with something for them?0 -
It is like his audition for the VP role since he rose to prominence in 2008 began then as he has been showing he can be a lapdog and go against what he believes, but which are conveniently what Hillary believes.
Not sure what you mean there. This goes back before 2008. It was a major issue in the VA governor's race in 2005 when Kaine was attacked for his position, which was the same then as now --- morally opposed to the death penalty but would fulfill his sworn duty, if elected, to uphold the law --- and also for having represented death row inmates as a civil rights attorney. His opponent, Jerry Kilgore, ran over-the-top attack ads against Kaine on this issue, and they backfired.
Kilgore, the former state attorney general, wanted to expand the DP in VA. Kaine won, and he stopped that from happening, which was not easy in a state with overwhelming public support for the DP.
You'd think that someone who opposes the DP would applaud a governor who effects positive change, even if it's only incremental, in a state stubbornly resistant to change, especially when the alternative was to make the situation much, much worse.
But go ahead and attack. It didn't hurt Kaine then, I doubt it'll do much damage 10 years later. Are you supporting Pence, who loves the DP, and Trump, who wants to enact a federal DP as president? He is too stupid to know that that is far outside the powers of a president.0 -
InTheTrees wrote: »Because Planned parenthood is a non-profit organisation that provides healthcare to low income women.
Pence gets money from an agribusiness trade group.
You make your choice right? You see those as identical and a lot of people dont.
Non-profit...someone should have told the CEO of planned parenthood whose salary is not that of what one would expect for a non profit organisation.
It puts dodgy Irish charity/non profit groups to shame. Salary of $590,928 including pension contributions and bonuses. In these non profit organisations, for some it is very profitable.
But back to Pence he argued for immigration reform and has stood by his position irrespective of money received that you say he gets.
Kaine said he is a traditional Catholic, got money from planned parenthood and is pro-choice in his voting. Do you agree he lies about being a traditional Catholic, and he is not convinced by his own views on things to uphold them?
Planned parenthood takes federal money, yet between the year 2000 and 2015 PP have donated $25 million to the Democrat party.
Imagine if Irish politics worked like that. Bad and all that Rehab and Console have been, there is no evidence that they are hand in hand with a political party by donating to a party to benefit themselves when it comes to policy.
PP says a 1st trimester abortion can cost up to $1,500 per abortion. They carry out over 300,000 abortions a year.
Just watch the DNC and the constant abortion talk, they are a party bought by the huge amount of money made from abortions.
Kaine has voted for his career, and you know he would not be the VP pick if he hadn't a 100% voting record for abortion, and even with that some Democrats don't believe he supports abortion enough.0 -
InTheTrees wrote: »Its a womens right to choose.
Thats what the majority of the american people believe as regards abortion. Planned Parenthood is about much more than abortion though.
Respecting a womens right to choose, and the rules set out in Row V Wade is a pretty realistic position that is supported by most voters.
Okay, so voting in a pro-choice manner has nothing to do with him being funded by an organisation that benefits from pro-choice policies or that it helps to win him votes? And, Pence favouring immigration reform has nothing to do with him being funded by an organisation that benefits from such policies or the fact that it might or might not help him win votes?
It's almost as if those people might have principles and they favour policies based on those principles and that people and organisations fund and vote for people that favour similar policies to them.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.0 -
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LostinKildare wrote: »Not sure what you mean there. This goes back before 2008. It was a major issue in the VA governor's race in 2005 when Kaine was attacked for his position, which was the same then as now --- morally opposed to the death penalty but would fulfill his sworn duty, if elected, to uphold the law --- and also for having represented death row inmates as a civil rights attorney. His opponent, Jerry Kilgore, ran over-the-top attack ads against Kaine on this issue, and they backfired.
Kilgore, the former state attorney general, wanted to expand the DP in VA. Kaine won, and he stopped that from happening, which was not easy in a state with overwhelming public support for the DP.
You'd think that someone who opposes the DP would applaud a governor who effects positive change, even if it's only incremental, in a state stubbornly resistant to change, especially when the alternative was to make the situation much, much worse.
But go ahead and attack. It didn't hurt Kaine then, I doubt it'll do much damage 10 years later. Are you supporting Pence, who loves the DP, and Trump, who wants to enact a federal DP as president? He is too stupid to know that that is far outside the powers of a president.
Was he required to run for governor of Virginia knowing he would have to execute people?
He is all talk, but his actions show his career comes first and his ambition for power is more important that what he says his personal views are.
Back in the year 2000, the Republican governor of Illinois suspended the death penalty for his state.
Kaine could have done more in Virginia, but he didn't. Maybe he believed the swing voters of Virginia supported the death penalty.
But he kept a policy Hillary supports.
Kaine could have commuted all death penalty sentences to life sentences if he had wanted.
All talk on these issues is what he is.0 -
Non-profit...someone should have told the CEO of planned parenthood whose salary is not that of what one would expect for a non profit organisation.
It puts dodgy Irish charity/non profit groups to shame. Salary of $590,928 including pension contributions and bonuses. In these non profit organisations, for some it is very profitable.
No. Its an average salary for a CEO in an organisation as large as Planned Parenthood.
You understand what a non-profit is right? It doesn't mean everyone works for free. Or very little. There's some massive non-profit organizations in the USA paying competitive salaries to their CEO's.0 -
Suryavarman wrote: »Okay, so voting in a pro-choice manner has nothing to do with him being funded by an organisation that benefits from pro-choice policies or that it helps to win him votes?
What does that mean??
They provide healthcare to women in addition to abortions. And they've been under attack by republicans for years.0 -
InTheTrees wrote: »What does that mean??
They provide healthcare to women in addition to abortions. And they've been under attack by republicans for years.
It means he receives donations from planned parenthood. An organisation that benefits from pro choice policies.0 -
Suryavarman wrote: »It means he receives donations from planned parenthood. An organisation that benefits from pro choice policies.
Sure, in the same way amnesty international benefits from political prisoners being released, or the salvation army benefits from a decrease in homelessness.
Now maybe you can tell us the Trump/Pence position on abortion rights? Planned Parenthood funding?0 -
InTheTrees wrote: »No. Its an average salary for a CEO in an organisation as large as Planned Parenthood.
You understand what a non-profit is right? It doesn't mean everyone works for free. Or very little. There's some massive non-profit organizations in the USA paying competitive salaries to their CEO's.
Her salary is in the top 1% in the US, for an organisation that gets federal funding it is a lot.
Yeah we saw it with banks, pay them peanuts and you get monkeys. Well I am sure there are very capable people who would do the same job for less.
The banks paid their CEOs and others huge sums and still got monkeys.0 -
No politician, campaign, or party gets money from Planned Parenthood, the nonprofit organization that provides services for reproductive health.
Suryavarman and RobertKK, you seem to be confusing it with the Planned Parenthood Action Fund, which is a PAC (a "Non-Connected Political Action Committee"). Basically, a political fundraising mechanism by which private individuals who support the work of certain types of organizations can make donations specifically to lobby or support politicians who also support your favoured cause. Their revenue comes completely from taxable donations. Not from govt funding or, as RobertKK said, "the huge amount of money made from abortions" (ha!).
To use the example given above, it's not like Console giving money to a campaign. It's like private citizens who love Console setting up a "Friends of Console" group specifically to give political donations to candidates that support Console.
There are PACS for pretty much any cause you can think of. Totally legal and above-board.
Seriously, we're getting bogged down in the weeds on abortion. There are other important issues in this election.0 -
The DNC is going to be disruptive I believe,
The Democratic national committee chairwoman Debbie Wasserman will now not speak at the convention after Wikileaks revealed around 20,000 emails were sent out from her office and staff to try and undermine Bernie Sanders during the primaries.
One email called for DNC staffer to undermine Bernie's faith among southern voters. Another was to defend Hillary against a Bernie accusation that Hillary was not living up to a joint fundraising agreement.
Sanders said "I don't think she is qualified to be the chair of the DNC not only for these awful emails, which revealed the prejudice of the DNC, but also because we need a party that reaches out to working people and young people, I don't think her leadership style is doing that'.
Bernie said he is not shocked by the revelations, that he discussed it many many months ago.
The email on his faith said he should be portrayed as an atheist, as the southern baptists would see a big difference between a Jew and an atheist.
There is talk of large protests in Philadelphia of up to 30,000 people.0 -
LostinKildare wrote: »No politician, campaign, or party gets money from Planned Parenthood, the nonprofit organization that provides services for reproductive health.
Suryavarman and RobertKK, you seem to be confusing it with the Planned Parenthood Action Fund, which is a PAC (a "Non-Connected Political Action Committee"). Basically, a political fundraising mechanism by which private individuals who support the work of certain types of organizations can make donations specifically to lobby or support politicians who also support your favoured cause. Their revenue comes completely from taxable donations. Not from govt funding or, as RobertKK said, "the huge amount of money made from abortions" (ha!).
To use the example given above, it's not like Console giving money to a campaign. It's like private citizens who love Console setting up a "Friends of Console" group specifically to give political donations to candidates that support Console.
There are PACS for pretty much any cause you can think of. Totally legal and above-board.
Seriously, we're getting bogged down in the weeds on abortion. There are other important issues in this election.
What does the planned parenthood action fund support?
About us on their site:
The Planned Parenthood Action Fund is a nonpartisan, not-for-profit organization formed as the advocacy and nonpartisan political arm of Planned Parenthood Federation of America.
You can try and separate them all you like...it doesn't add up.
Bogged down on abortion you say. watch the DNC this week, I will. It will be one of the main issues for them like it was 4 years ago, like it was 8 years ago...0 -
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What does the planned parenthood action fund support?
About us on their site:
The Planned Parenthood Action Fund is a nonpartisan, not-for-profit organization formed as the advocacy and nonpartisan political arm of Planned Parenthood Federation of America.
You can try and separate them all you like...it doesn't add up.
Clearly you do not understand what a PAC is, in spite of my attempt to explain. So I will leave it there.0
This discussion has been closed.
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