Asking A Father's Permission

Hold the Cheez Whiz

jill_valentine wrote: »

"Tradition" isn't a good enough reason to maintain something this ugly. It needs to make sense, there has to be a reason for it good enough to outweigh the bad, and so far there hasn't been a single one except that for some reason the bride's dad is entitled to more ceremonial respect than she is.

It doesn't matter that you aren't really buying her, it's still insulting to pantomime out the motions of doing so, and the fact that people can't get their heads around that sort of speaks for itself. Shur why wouldn't her father have a say? :rolleyes

I think this is getting hyperbolic. While I agree that "TRADITION!" need not be the driving factor, the reality of social relationships is that some things are important to some people, while to others they are not. Parsing that out is a key component of human interaction, particularly with those that we are close with. I don't think that acknowledging that is somehow akin to acquiescing to centuries of patriarchy.

Not2Good

FunLover18 wrote: »

When it comes to marriage proposals, do men still ask the OH's father for permission/their blessing?

It strikes me as extremely old fashioned. Is it a respect thing , and if so, who exactly is it respectful to? If for someone reason they say no would it make a difference?

Girls, do you want your OH to ask your dad before you?

Dads, do you care?

I didn't though I suspect he wished I had and he has hated me since! His other son-in-law did and the sun shines out of his ar@e! Ever since he has been a brown nosing little git ….

Czarcasm

Deleted User wrote: »

A couple of things here make it hard for me to see your way of thinking on this.

First: The father of the girl is not the spokesperson for an entire family. So why presume to have him speak on their behalf? He might accept - but the family actually do not want you and see you as an imposition. He might reject - but in fact aside from him personally the family do want you a lot. If the opinions of the "family" really did matter to you - as you claim - would it not actually make more sense to put your request for marriage to them all as a democratic vote and not to one single arbitrarily selected person? Why the father even? Why not the mother? Or the oldest surviving member of the family unit? Or the youngest member who - in all probability - will have to put up with you as a member of the family for much longer than the father will given he is likely to outlive the father?

We clearly don't see things the same way tax, but you've clearly given this an awful lot more thought than I've done. I genuinely didn't think to ask the whole family as I was already treated like one of the family anyway, so to me my wife's father is just that - he assumes the same responsibility for me as one of his own children when he becomes my father in law.

Second: Why does it only go one way? Why does the man ask the father of the bride? Surely the marriage is introducing her into YOUR family too? Who gets a say in that? Who asks YOUR dad about it? Or by asking her to marry you are you giving that permission to be part of YOUR family? If so then why is she not afforded the same right to do so? How can you speak for your family - but she can not for hers and needs daddy to do it? I do not think I recall one person who was "for" this asking of the father who ever said "Yeah I asked her dad for permission - but I also asked my own dad too".

Who said it only went one way? If my wife had wanted to ask my parent's permission to become part of my family, I wouldn't have had an issue with it, the same way my wife had no issue with me approaching her father to ask for his permission to marry his daughter. I won't lie and say she didn't think it was unusual, but it was only unusual in the respect that she saw it as one of my more conventional views amongst many unconventional ones.

Given that my own parents had already made their feelings towards my wife clear, that she was a "godless, gold digging whore who would probably give me AIDS", I think it's safe to say it was quite a good thing then that the idea of her asking my parent's permission to become part of my family, had never occurred to either of us!

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're even realising it, but you're talking about your father in law as if he not only used to own your wife, he owns the entire family...

That may be how it appears from your perspective Shenshen, however I can assure you that's not the case. I never considered it question of ownership, more a question that it's at least only polite to ask. I certainly hadn't thought to ask the whole family as they were not in that position of authority to give permission for me to marry their sister. To me personally, the term 'father in law' actually means just what it says on the tin so to speak.

I get the idea of asking to be part of the family, but shouldn't you then actually ask the entire family, not just the one person?

Well, I could have done, if I'd actually thought of the question the same way you do, but the fact is that I really don't. I also refer to my sisters in law by their first names, however I still refer to my wife's parents by their proper titles - Mr. <Surname>, Mrs. <Surname>. They told me upon meeting them for the first time that I could refer to them by their first names, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it as I felt it was disrespectful. They didn't particularly care whether I did or I didn't refer to them by their first names, but that the option was available for me to do so. Seventeen years later and I still refer to them by their proper titles, as I'm just not comfortable referring to them by their first names, and we still enjoy a great relationship.

Not2Good

" Meet the parents" sums up my relationship with the father in law aaahhhhh

In the first one wasn't he going off to ask his future father in law for his daughter's hand in marriage etc etc?

krudler

krudler wrote: »

It's like as if people don't do things differently to others, how quaint.

Nox was the one claiming "Its almost unheard of not to ask in Ireland." so well may he expect a response like that

Tarzana

krudler wrote: »

I wonder how many "I'm not property!" posters had their father walk them up the aisle when they got married, which essentially means the same thing.

I'll probably have both my folks walk me up. And not taking your husband's name is becoming increasingly common.

FactCheck

FactCheck wrote: »

I don't know anybody who hasn't lived together before deciding to get married. Indeed, everybody, not just friends but family and parents too, would hugely frown on a couple NOT living together first - it would be seen as rushing into things.

I agree that a couple not living together is much less common nowadays apart from a couple good reasons why they may not be when proposal time comes around. One being both are living at home and planning to move into their own house (bought or built) before the wedding (common enough in my neck of the woods) another being both living in different parts of the country so living apart until they can both find work in the same place.

FactCheck wrote: »

I also don't know anybody who'd bring their laundry home to their Mammy unless their washing machine had broken down! They'd be too embarrassed.

This is totally off topic for this thread but if people are embarrassed going to their home house and dealing with their parents they have a strange relationship.

indigo twist

Czarcasm wrote: »

I still refer to my wife's parents by their proper titles - Mr. <Surname>, Mrs. <Surname>. They told me upon meeting them for the first time that I could refer to them by their first names, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it as I felt it was disrespectful. They didn't particularly care whether I did or I didn't refer to them by their first names, but that the option was available for me to do so. Seventeen years later and I still refer to them by their proper titles, as I'm just not comfortable referring to them by their first names, and we still enjoy a great relationship.

How on earth is it in ANY way disrespectful to talk to her parents using their first names? You are all (I assume?) grown adults, on an equal footing?

If anything, I personally would find it quite disrespectful if I found myself in the strange position of having to specifically request someone to talk to me as *first name* and not as Ms *second name*, and yet - despite me specifically requesting it - they refused to do so.

If you ever have a daughter or son who has a partner, are you going to request that the boyfriend/girlfriend calls you Mr Whatever-yer-surname-is at all times? It just seems so odd!

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

It comes up on other threads about it too. You don't like the permission thing? But I bet you'll be walked down the aisle! or have a ring! a-HA!!

Oh, how did I know :pac:

jill_valentine

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

I think this is getting hyperbolic. While I agree that "TRADITION!" need not be the driving factor, the reality of social relationships is that some things are important to some people, while to others they are not. Parsing that out is a key component of human interaction, particularly with those that we are close with. I don't think that acknowledging that is somehow akin to acquiescing to centuries of patriarchy.

It's not the end of the world, but the babbling about respect is frustrating to listen to because it's so mindless. Literally a second's thought about why it's considered "respectful" to the bride's father explains why it's disrespectful to her at the same time. And it's not even subtle when you actually have people explicitly talking about the idea of the dad is the gatekeeper of the family.

This is one of the things that's so common it's easier not to think about, but for people who do, it's not unreasonable to consider it pretty belittling.

Sitting at the back of the bus didn't do black people any material harm, but we understand why it's not the done thing anymore. Why is it important to play out something this unpleasant when the thinking behind it is such a slight? If it's as meaningless as the guys defending it think, it shouldn't cost anything to ditch it.

Zubeneschamali

Czarcasm wrote: »

I certainly hadn't thought to ask the whole family as they were not in that position of authority to give permission for me to marry their sister.

Just like the father is not in a position of authority to give permission for you to marry his daughter.

In fact, nobody is in a position of authority to give permission for you to marry her except herself, so asking anyone else for permission is a bit weird.

And asking anyone else before you ask her is incitement to violence in my book.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Traditional weddings always win out. My dads not alive anymore, so the original post doesn't matter. I don't think my oh would have asked my dads permission anyway. Would it be a big deal? No.

I always said when I got married I didn't want an engagement ring, or a giant wedding. Ideally, it's an expensive pair of shoes, just me and him and two witnesses and then a really long honeymoon. No big church wedding because honestly I'd be so terrified of stage fright walking down an aisle, in front of hundred plus people. The big giant wedding full of people we barely know. Thousands on a dress ill never wear again. It seems such a waste.

Neither of my parents are around to interfere in my 'perfect day', but the OHs mom is outrageous for it. Because its her oldest sons wedding, it's almost like its her day too and it's kind of like her way or no way.

She didn't like my cheap wedding dress because it wasn't wedding dressy enough.
She was horrified we weren't getting married in a church.
Completely outraged there was no reception. What would she tell people?!
And then when were planning the invitations its like people I have never even heard of are important enough to not be excluded.

There's definitely the pressure there for the traditional wedding.

So, were doing everything traditional now.

I have an engagement ring even though I don't wear jewellery.
My brother will be walking me down the aisle I never planned on walking.
Well be getting married in a church.
I'll be wearing a proper wedding dress.
And there'll be about 150 sitting down at the reception.

Yay for conformity!

Shenshen

Czarcasm wrote: »

That may be how it appears from your perspective Shenshen, however I can assure you that's not the case. I never considered it question of ownership, more a question that it's at least only polite to ask. I certainly hadn't thought to ask the whole family as they were not in that position of authority to give permission for me to marry their sister. To me personally, the term 'father in law' actually means just what it says on the tin so to speak.



Well, I could have done, if I'd actually thought of the question the same way you do, but the fact is that I really don't. I also refer to my sisters in law by their first names, however I still refer to my wife's parents by their proper titles - Mr. <Surname>, Mrs. <Surname>. They told me upon meeting them for the first time that I could refer to them by their first names, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it as I felt it was disrespectful. They didn't particularly care whether I did or I didn't refer to them by their first names, but that the option was available for me to do so. Seventeen years later and I still refer to them by their proper titles, as I'm just not comfortable referring to them by their first names, and we still enjoy a great relationship.

The bolded bit is what I would take issue with... in my eyes, that authority would either lie excusively with your wife, or else with he entire close family.
Why pick one family member?

Czarcasm

Tarzana wrote: »

I'll probably have both my folks walk me up. And not taking your husband's name is becoming increasingly common.

You're after reminding me actually - the double-barrelled surname! It seems even more common (to me at least), than the person retaining their maiden name? Am I wrong? I could be, but it seems particularly prevalent on social media. I've only come across it a handful of times offline, and what seems even more rare, but gaining momentum, is the husband taking their wife's name!

The only reason I mention it as to imply how strange it is, is moreso to say it's still quite rare, and I thought it was unusual the first time I ever heard of it. It still seems unusual, but now less so than it was initially.

FactCheck

I think the thing that gets me a bit is that:

I totally appreciate that people who like to do this are doing it for positive reasons, they see it as relationship-building, it's about joining families, it's about respecting each other. And all of that is really great - I mean it actually is, this is stuff I do really value in my own life.

But it's very possible and very easy to keep all of that, and prioritise all of that, without doing the actual asking for permission. Agreeing to get engaged together first, then going to the sets of parents and telling them the good news and asking for their blessing - you are ticking all those boxes! And everybody gets to have a lovely moment together!

Like I said above, my parents adore my husband. Seeing their faces when we told them we were getting married is one of my happiest memories. I'm very glad I had that. They won't be with me forever.

And as someone else said above - it isn't even really a tradition! Traditionally the bride still gave the ok first! Why would you want to be more old-fashioned than Mr Darcy?!

Shakespeare's Sister

newport2 wrote: »

I agree. But engagement rings evolved as a level of insurance to the woman, because:

"If the groom-to-be walked out after he and the bride-to-be had sex, that left her in a precarious position. From a social angle, she had been permanently "damaged." From an economic angle, she had lost her market value."
(http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/the-strange-and-formerly-sexist-economics-of-engagement-rings/255434/)


Pretty chauvinistic tradition too. No objections to engagement rings though.

Well I did say that this tradition has lost its chauvinism and is just a well meaning gesture, but it's a silly gesture IMO as I said.
It also shouldn't be assumed every woman would be dying for an engagement ring. Wouldn't care myself, and I certainly don't agree the man should be the only one paying for it.
I would say the women who are mad for engagement rings would tend to be the same ones who have no issue with this asking the father tradition.

Zubeneschamali

Czarcasm wrote: »

You're after reminding me actually - the double-barrelled surname! It seems even more common (to me at least), than the person retaining their maiden name? Am I wrong?

Lots of people keep their maiden name and you might not even notice it, but a double barrelled name jumps out and calls attention to itself.

My wife didn't change her name for a while, and still uses it at work 20+ years later. But when the kids come along, you get into grief with what you call them: travelling with them when your surname is not theirs can attract a lot of unwelcome attention. So we settled on my surname on all passports.

Her mother addresses letters to Mrs. [my_initial] [my_surname], which annoys the hell out of her.

Shenshen

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Traditional weddings always win out. My dads not alive anymore, so the original post doesn't matter. I don't think my oh would have asked my dads permission anyway. Would it be a big deal? No.

I always said when I got married I didn't want an engagement ring, or a giant wedding. Ideally, it's an expensive pair of shoes, just me and him and two witnesses and then a really long honeymoon. No big church wedding because honestly I'd be so terrified of stage fright walking down an aisle, in front of hundred plus people. The big giant wedding full of people we barely know. Thousands on a dress ill never wear again. It seems such a waste.

Neither of my parents are around to interfere in my 'perfect day', but the OHs mom is outrageous for it. Because its her oldest sons wedding, it's almost like its her day too and it's kind of like her way or no way.

She didn't like my cheap wedding dress because it wasn't wedding dressy enough.
She was horrified we weren't getting married in a church.
Completely outraged there was no reception. What would she tell people?!
And then when were planning the invitations its like people I have never even heard of are important enough to not be excluded.

There's definitely the pressure there for the traditional wedding.

So, were doing everything traditional now.

I have an engagement ring even though I don't wear jewellery.
My brother will be walking me down the aisle I never planned on walking.
Well be getting married in a church.
I'll be wearing a proper wedding dress.
And there'll be about 150 sitting down at the reception.

Yay for conformity!

I can understand why you do it, you can't put a value on peace.

But I do feel for you. I was lucky enough to have just that wedding - reasonable dress, only closest family and friends (I forced my mother to uninvite people she had invited "on my behalf"), no church, no rings, none of that nonsense.
I told people the first one to get up to hold a speech would not be drinking for free any more.

Not everybody's cup of tea I'm sure, but it suited me and my husband down to the ground.

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Her mother addresses letters to Mrs. [my_initial] [my_surname], which annoys the hell out of her.

Being addressed as mrs john smith would send me into a rage!!

Czarcasm

indigo twist wrote: »

How on earth is it in ANY way disrespectful to talk to her parents using their first names? You are all (I assume?) grown adults, on an equal footing?

Well that's where our perspectives differ - I don't see myself as being on an equal footing with her parents. I'm not their friends, I'm their son in law.

If anything, I personally would find it quite disrespectful if I found myself in the strange position of having to specifically request someone to talk to me as *first name* and not as Ms *second name*, and yet - despite me specifically requesting it - they refused to do so.

Thankfully, for me at least, my wife's parents aren't like you, and they understood that as hard as I tried (and I did, and it just came out like I'd portmanteau'd their proper title and their full names, or similar effect), I just wasn't able to do it, and they accepted that and still to this day have never had an issue with it.

If you ever have a daughter or son who has a partner, are you going to request that the boyfriend/girlfriend calls you Mr Whatever-yer-surname-is at all times? It just seems so odd!

I would ensure that my son has made his girlfriend/boyfriend aware of the fact that I prefer to be referred to by my proper title -

Those neighbors children that call adults by their first names...

Your parents might be all cool and new agey, but I still believe in respect for your elders, pouncing in here like they own the place with their "Hi Czarcasm!"... :mad:

That's Mr. Czarcasm to you! :pac:

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Just like the father is not in a position of authority to give permission for you to marry his daughter.

I would see it differently though, and my wife has never had an issue with that.

In fact, nobody is in a position of authority to give permission for you to marry her except herself, so asking anyone else for permission is a bit weird.

It's only weird to you though really because you don't think the same way I, my wife, and her family do. My wife's family had no issue with it either.

And asking anyone else before you ask her is incitement to violence in my book.

Perhaps that's where the confusion seems to be arising - my wife and I were living together for seven years before we got married, so it wasn't as if we hadn't had regular discussions around the whole idea of marriage and other matters.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

jill_valentine wrote: »

It's not the end of the world, but the babbling about respect is frustrating to listen to because it's so mindless. Literally a second's thought about why it's considered "respectful" to the bride's father explains why it's disrespectful to her at the same time. And it's not even subtle when you actually have people explicitly talking about the idea of the dad is the gatekeeper of the family.

This is one of the things that's so common it's easier not to think about, but for people who do, it's not unreasonable to consider it pretty belittling.

Sitting at the back of the bus didn't do black people any material harm, but we understand why it's not the done thing anymore. Why is it important to play out something this unpleasant when the thinking behind it is such a slight? If it's as meaningless as the guys defending it think, it shouldn't cost anything to ditch it.

Honestly, I think it is pretty insulting to compare blacks being forced, under threat of violence, to be treated as second-class citizens to the remnants of an anachronistic practice that had no real ramifications in modern memory save perhaps a grumpy father-in-law at Christmas dinner. If a couple talks about it together, and the bride to be is ok with it (or is indifferent, but thinks it matters to her father), then I don't think it is worth all of the pearl-clutching on this thread.

Zubeneschamali

bluewolf wrote: »

Being addressed as mrs john smith would send me into a rage!!

By your own mother!

FactCheck

I guess mileage varies, but I would find it very uncomfortable to have someone I liked calling me "Mrs Check" for two decades. I would much prefer to be called what I'd asked to be called.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

indigo twist wrote: »

How on earth is it in ANY way disrespectful to talk to her parents using their first names? You are all (I assume?) grown adults, on an equal footing?

If anything, I personally would find it quite disrespectful if I found myself in the strange position of having to specifically request someone to talk to me as *first name* and not as Ms *second name*, and yet - despite me specifically requesting it - they refused to do so.

If you ever have a daughter or son who has a partner, are you going to request that the boyfriend/girlfriend calls you Mr Whatever-yer-surname-is at all times? It just seems so odd!

Because people are raised differently, and sometimes it is hard to let go of relatively harmless lifelong habits? My husband was raised in a part of the US where parents of even close friends were always called "Mr/Mrs so-and-so" and 'sir' and 'ma'am' are terms commonly used to refer to adult strangers. It is just a more formal way of interacting that seems normal to him, and although it seems odd to me and my family, nobody minds it or sees it as disrespectful as it is so ingrained at this point.

Wompa1

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't see how there's any respect involved, for anyone, in that scenario.

Approval, not permission.

Dial Hard

I'm actually genuinely surprised at how traditional your views in this thread are, Czarcasm, because we've tended to have very similar opinions on a lot of matters in the past (mostly under my old username, in case you're wondering what the hell I'm talking about.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Your parents might be all cool and new agey, but I still believe in respect for your elders, pouncing in here like they own the place with their "Hi Czarcasm!"...

That's Mr. Czarcasm to you! .

This bit, in particular, I just can't agree with. People aren't automatically deserving of respect simply as a consequence of being older than you. Respect should be earned, not assumed, imo.

Philo Beddoe

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

Honestly, I think it is pretty insulting to compare blacks being forced, under threat of violence, to be treated as second-class citizens to the remnants of an anachronistic practice that had no real ramifications in modern memory save perhaps a grumpy father-in-law at Christmas dinner.

You don't think the history of women is one of being treated as second-class citizens under threat of violence?

IK09

Love the way some women are say "if he asked for his permission....id be saying no". So you discard the person you love because they asked your Father for his blessing :pac:

Fickle enough.

I asked my Father in Law for his blessing, I did tell him I was going to ask her and asked him how he felt about having me as a Son in Law. We were good friends, he was someone I could always speak honestly to.

He died between the engagement and the wedding. Its a memory I will always cherish, sitting outside his work on a freezing cold day, drinking cans of coke and smoking cigarettes. Its a memory that only the two of us experienced. I would do it again in the morning.

By the way. Never heard anyone call it "asking permission" until here.

swimming in a sea

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Traditional weddings always win out. My dads not alive anymore, so the original post doesn't matter. I don't think my oh would have asked my dads permission anyway. Would it be a big deal? No.

I always said when I got married I didn't want an engagement ring, or a giant wedding. Ideally, it's an expensive pair of shoes, just me and him and two witnesses and then a really long honeymoon. No big church wedding because honestly I'd be so terrified of stage fright walking down an aisle, in front of hundred plus people. The big giant wedding full of people we barely know. Thousands on a dress ill never wear again. It seems such a waste.

Neither of my parents are around to interfere in my 'perfect day', but the OHs mom is outrageous for it. Because its her oldest sons wedding, it's almost like its her day too and it's kind of like her way or no way.

She didn't like my cheap wedding dress because it wasn't wedding dressy enough.
She was horrified we weren't getting married in a church.
Completely outraged there was no reception. What would she tell people?!
And then when were planning the invitations its like people I have never even heard of are important enough to not be excluded.

There's definitely the pressure there for the traditional wedding.

So, were doing everything traditional now.

I have an engagement ring even though I don't wear jewellery.
My brother will be walking me down the aisle I never planned on walking.
Well be getting married in a church.
I'll be wearing a proper wedding dress.
And there'll be about 150 sitting down at the reception.

Yay for conformity!

You've set a dangerous precedent, the mother in-law will be the bane of you life if you have kids... go and elope...save yourself

Czarcasm

Dial Hard wrote: »

I'm actually genuinely surprised at how traditional your views in this thread are, Czarcasm, because we've tended to have very similar opinions on a lot of matters in the past (mostly under my old username, in case you're wondering what the hell I'm talking about.

You and my wife DH :pac: -

Czarcasm wrote: »

I won't lie and say she didn't think it was unusual, but it was only unusual in the respect that she saw it as one of my more conventional views amongst many unconventional ones.

This bit, in particular, I just can't agree with. People aren't automatically deserving of respect simply as a consequence of being older than you. Respect should be earned, not assumed, imo.

Ah no, it's not just the fact that they're older than me (I've been in management positions where a good few of my team at the time were older than me and I would call them by their first names). It's more to do with as someone mentioned earlier, the way I was brought up (I was practically raised by my elderly next door neighbour, who incidentally I was able to call her by her first name, though that was from a very early age), but I would never refer to my parents by their first names, and by extension then so to speak, I wouldn't refer to my parents in-law by their first names either. They weren't at all put out by it or thought it was unusual or anything else. My wife refers to her parents as mum and dad and doesn't use their first names either, but as I noted above, it does seem to be becoming more common for people to view themselves as being on an equal footing with their parents in law and those in authority over them. I find it too familiar myself, not really anything to do with tradition tbh...

Dial Hard

Czarcasm wrote: »

as I noted above, it does seem to be becoming more common for people to view themselves as being on an equal footing with their parents in law and those in authority over them. I find it too familiar myself, not really anything to do with tradition tbh...

But they're just your wife's parents, they're not in a position of authority over you? You're all adults.

Tarzana

Dial Hard wrote: »

This bit, in particular, I just can't agree with. People aren't automatically deserving of respect simply as a consequence of being older than you. Respect should be earned, not assumed, imo.

+1

Tarzana

IK09 wrote: »

Love the way some women are say "if he asked for his permission....id be saying no". So you discard the person you love because they asked your Father for his blessing :pac:

Fickle enough.

Hardly fickle. It would make me question how well he knew me, because he should know I wouldn't be OK with it.

krudler

jill_valentine wrote: »

It's not the end of the world, but the babbling about respect is frustrating to listen to because it's so mindless. Literally a second's thought about why it's considered "respectful" to the bride's father explains why it's disrespectful to her at the same time. And it's not even subtle when you actually have people explicitly talking about the idea of the dad is the gatekeeper of the family.

This is one of the things that's so common it's easier not to think about, but for people who do, it's not unreasonable to consider it pretty belittling.

Sitting at the back of the bus didn't do black people any material harm, but we understand why it's not the done thing anymore. Why is it important to play out something this unpleasant when the thinking behind it is such a slight? If it's as meaningless as the guys defending it think, it shouldn't cost anything to ditch it.

Good christ...

Czarcasm

Dial Hard wrote: »

But they're just your wife's parents, they're not in a position of authority over you? You're all adults.

Honestly though, you could tell me that DH till you're blue in the face (and many have tried), but I just couldn't see it any other way - they are my parents, in law, and so in effect for me at least, they are in authority over me. I know you said respect must be earned, but for me I give respect by default so to speak, and withdraw that respect when it is no longer deserved, as in the case of my parents and my own family when they were unable to show respect to my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time. She had shown them respect, and they didn't feel there was any need to return that respect. In fact they went out of their way to make sure I knew they would never respect my girlfriend, and so I had to choose between either my parents, or my wife. My parents made that decision so much easier when they threatened to cut me out of any possible inheritance. I didn't want anything from them anyway, but to think I would bend to such a despicable threat was the moment when I lost all respect for their authority over me as their son.

krudler

IK09 wrote: »

Love the way some women are say "if he asked for his permission....id be saying no". So you discard the person you love because they asked your Father for his blessing :pac:

Fickle enough.

I asked my Father in Law for his blessing, I did tell him I was going to ask her and asked him how he felt about having me as a Son in Law. We were good friends, he was someone I could always speak honestly to.

He died between the engagement and the wedding. Its a memory I will always cherish, sitting outside his work on a freezing cold day, drinking cans of coke and smoking cigarettes. Its a memory that only the two of us experienced. I would do it again in the morning.

By the way. Never heard anyone call it "asking permission" until here.

Indeed, I doubt one person on here who said they'd do that would do it in reality.

Tarzana

krudler wrote: »

Good christ...

Well, think about it for a second. Looking at it from an "I wanna take a load off" perspective, there was nothing wrong with it because you just needed somewhere to sit. But of course, there was SO much wrong with it. Getting off your tired feet wasn't one of them.

Lia_lia

Is this really a thing? How bizarre. What if the Father says no? Do you just not get married then?

Tarzana

Lia_lia wrote: »

Is this really a thing? How bizarre. What if the Father says no? Do you just not get married then?

Indeed. And if he says doesn't give his blessing and you marry anyway, then what was the point?

jill_valentine

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

Honestly, I think it is pretty insulting to compare blacks being forced, under threat of violence, to be treated as second-class citizens to the remnants of an anachronistic practice that had no real ramifications in modern memory save perhaps a grumpy father-in-law at Christmas dinner. If a couple talks about it together, and the bride to be is ok with it (or is indifferent, but thinks it matters to her father), then I don't think it is worth all of the pearl-clutching on this thread.

It wouldn't be acceptable even without the threat of violence. You could reassure black people that don't worry, you're not really going to beat them up, this is just a tradition they have, to respect the white people on the bus, but I don't think that would go over terribly well either.

This tradition is a deferential nod to a time when this gesture would not have been symbolic. Why is that something we'd want to honour? You're entering into a lifelong 50:50 partnership with this woman, and the foot you want to start on is asking her daddy if you can have her?

ash23

krudler wrote: »

Indeed, I doubt one person on here who said they'd do that would do it in reality.

I'm not sure I'd dump him but honestly it would taint the proposal for me and annoy me beyond belief to the point where I would probably say no to the proposal.
Himself would know exactly how I feel about my dad and if he asked his permission to ask me to marry him, well it would just totally undermine all the talks we've had about that very sore subject.

So I do think it would cause problems in the relationship. Oh and my father wouldn't be walking me down the aisle. My mother would. And I wouldn't change my name as my daughter has my name unless she also wanted to change hers and then I'd consider it. No to diamonds too unless they're ethical. But I'm far from a traditionalist.

MistyCheese

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's up there with putting the ring in a glass of champagne.

Oh feck yeah. Never put the ring in food (or drink). It'd be the same for any kind of jewellery though. If you're getting your lovely girlfriend/fiancée/wife/girl who you're in love with but who only sees you as a friend a necklace for her birthday don't bake it into a cake. Boxes are fine for this purpose. I honestly never heard a woman say ' yeah I do love the necklace, it's just that it would've been so much nicer if it had come with crumbs.'

Zubeneschamali

Czarcasm wrote: »

they are my parents, in law, and so in effect for me at least, they are in authority over me.

Even my actual real parents were only in authority over me until the age of majority, which in my case was 20 years, 4 months and 13 days old.

krudler

ash23 wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd dump him but honestly it would taint the proposal for me and annoy me beyond belief to the point where I would probably say no to the proposal.
Himself would know exactly how I feel about my dad and if he asked his permission to ask me to marry him, well it would just totally undermine all the talks we've had about that very sore subject.

So I do think it would cause problems in the relationship. Oh and my father wouldn't be walking me down the aisle. My mother would. And I wouldn't change my name as my daughter has my name unless she also wanted to change hers and then I'd consider it. No to diamonds too unless they're ethical. But I'm far from a traditionalist.

Well if you've already made your feelings felt about it then that's totally different.

Easy solution: bring it up in conversation at some point in the relationship, if she says she'd like the idea, go for it, if not, don't ask the dad first just tell the parents together. Simple, problem solved, everyone happy.

eviltwin

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Traditional weddings always win out. My dads not alive anymore, so the original post doesn't matter. I don't think my oh would have asked my dads permission anyway. Would it be a big deal? No.

I always said when I got married I didn't want an engagement ring, or a giant wedding. Ideally, it's an expensive pair of shoes, just me and him and two witnesses and then a really long honeymoon. No big church wedding because honestly I'd be so terrified of stage fright walking down an aisle, in front of hundred plus people. The big giant wedding full of people we barely know. Thousands on a dress ill never wear again. It seems such a waste.

Neither of my parents are around to interfere in my 'perfect day', but the OHs mom is outrageous for it. Because its her oldest sons wedding, it's almost like its her day too and it's kind of like her way or no way.

She didn't like my cheap wedding dress because it wasn't wedding dressy enough.
She was horrified we weren't getting married in a church.
Completely outraged there was no reception. What would she tell people?!
And then when were planning the invitations its like people I have never even heard of are important enough to not be excluded.

There's definitely the pressure there for the traditional wedding.

So, were doing everything traditional now.

I have an engagement ring even though I don't wear jewellery.
My brother will be walking me down the aisle I never planned on walking.
Well be getting married in a church.
I'll be wearing a proper wedding dress.
And there'll be about 150 sitting down at the reception.

Yay for conformity!

Traditional weddings always win out? Not always, surely you know many couples who didn't go the traditional route?


My own wedding, 6 yrs ago today incidentally, was non traditional. I kept my name, no rings of any kind, walked into the register office with two friends and my daughter - all very shocking for our deeply religious family but they got over it, they always do.


Best of luck with your day, hopefully you can get on with the planning without any more drama

alroley

I'm not an object owned by anyone. This "tradition" is basically saying that women are owned by their father and then owned by their husband.

foreverandever

krudler wrote: »

Well if you've already made your feelings felt about it then that's totally different.

Easy solution: bring it up in conversation at some point in the relationship, if she says she'd like the idea, go for it, if not, don't ask the dad first just tell the parents together. Simple, problem solved, everyone happy.

I agree with the above, surely engagements/marriages etc have come up in conversation at some point and this issue has been discussed a little bit.

For people saying they're not close to their father so they shouldn't be asked- I presume your OH will have the brains to realise this and not ask them so it shouldn't be an issue.

If my best friends OH asked her father it would impact on me absolutely no way at all so really people only need to worry about themselves and their relationship and stop getting so worked up about it

Holsten

I've no plans to marry, if it ever came to that the first and only person to be asked would be my girlfriend.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

Philo Beddoe wrote: »

You don't think the history of women is one of being treated as second-class citizens under threat of violence?

jill_valentine wrote: »

It wouldn't be acceptable even without the threat of violence. You could reassure black people that don't worry, you're not really going to beat them up, this is just a tradition they have, to respect the white people on the bus, but I don't think that would go over terribly well either.

This tradition is a deferential nod to a time when this gesture would not have been symbolic. Why is that something we'd want to honour? You're entering into a lifelong 50:50 partnership with this woman, and the foot you want to start on is asking her daddy if you can have her?

I'm sorry - this is just a ridiculous comparison, and I can't even discuss it rationally because I think it is so stupid. Yes women were treated as second-class citizens until very recently, particularly in Ireland. But as with most wedding traditions, the original intent has lost its meaning over time, and the only relevance it has today is whether or not it is important or offensive to the bride, groom, and father-in-law - and that is a discussion that is between them. Making sweeping statements about patriarchy in relation to this silly but relatively innocuous practice is hyperbole at its worst.

recylingbin

Depends on whether she has a dowry or not. No dowry, no permission sought.