Asking A Father's Permission

FactCheck

recylingbin wrote: »

Depends on whether she has a dowry or not. No dowry, no permission sought.

Finally, a tradition worth keeping! I wouldn't marry anyone for less than three hundred head of cattle.

Two hundred if he was a looker.

Not2Good

recylingbin wrote: »

Depends on whether she has a dowry or not. No dowry, no permission sought.

They still do dowry payments?!

Defender OF Faith

How does it makes you a property of your father if your Husband was to ask his approval to marry you? I mean your his DAUGHTER for god sake let that sink in for a second...
people who say its a very old fashioned tradition are pretty Ironic as marriage is an extremely old tradition as well i don't even understand why people get married in the western society now days this will also be the man your will probably spend the rest of your life with, by marrying him he will also be a part of your family I think the father should have some sort of a say in this while to keep the family ties strong it shouldn't be a permission "Approval" is probably a better choice of word

Donkey Oaty

There's a Wiki-How article on how to ask for someone's daughter's hand in marriage.

The tips are wonderful.

Look good. What parent wants their beloved daughter marrying a total sleaze? Wash yourself that morning, do your hair, put on some nice clothes. Even clean jeans and a button-up shirt look great. Also, brush your teeth.

jill_valentine

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

I'm sorry - this is just a ridiculous comparison, and I can't even discuss it rationally because I think it is so stupid. Yes women were treated as second-class citizens until very recently, particularly in Ireland. But as with most wedding traditions, the original intent has lost its meaning over time, and the only relevance it has today is whether or not it is important or offensive to the bride, groom, and father-in-law - and that is a discussion that is between them. Making sweeping statements about patriarchy in relation to this silly but relatively innocuous practice is hyperbole at its worst.

People in this thread are literally telling you that they would find it insulting. The people defending it by insisting it's harmless are effectively telling them they aren't insulted.

It's a dumbass practice harking back to an extremely crappy deal for women that we're all supposed to be long beyond. Why in the name of jaysus would you taint supposedly the happiest occasion of your life by doing something hurtful and belittling to your partner? How exactly is she supposed to approach this partnership of happy equals after watching you celebrate her father's historical role as custodian-owner?

Just because you don't feel the harm in it doesn't mean it's harmless. Golliwogs were harmless tradition too.

bb1234567

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Very disrespectful to the girl imho. She is not the property of her father and shouldn't be treated as such. She will make her own decisions.

Also if you are asking I dont see why the father should only be asked to give his blessing and not the mother. Old age sexism

kryogen

Tarzana wrote: »

See, I would be LIVID if my father knew my BF was thinking of asking me before me.

Good thing we aren't a couple so or you would have just learned something that would have made you pretty angry.

Carlos Orange

Tarzana wrote: »

See, I would be LIVID if my father knew my BF was thinking of asking me before me.

Would you be more,the same or less livid if he talked to a friend about it before asking you?

jill_valentine

psinno wrote: »

Would you be more,the same or less livid if he talked to a friend about it before asking you?

Is he asking the friend for permission, in accordance with some tradition stemming from an age when said friend would have had actual control of her as a household asset?

jill_valentine

jill_valentine wrote: »

Why in the name of jaysus would you taint supposedly the happiest occasion of your life by doing something hurtful and belittling to your partner? How exactly is she supposed to approach this partnership of happy equals after watching you celebrate her father's historical role as custodian-owner?

You are of course completely ignoring the fact that a lot of women very much want this tradition carried out so how on earth can it be hurtful or belittling?

I really can't get inside the heads of some people at all how they can come up with such nonsense about a harmless tradition that a lot of people like to do.

Czarcasm

jill_valentine wrote: »

People in this thread are literally telling you that they would find it insulting. The people defending it by insisting it's harmless are effectively telling them they aren't insulted.

Well that's your way of interpreting it. Other people are speaking on their own behalf, as opposed to you who seems to think you can speak on behalf of all women. You really can't, and shouldn't try to, because not all women agree with you.

It's a dumbass practice harking back to an extremely crappy deal for women that we're all supposed to be long beyond. Why in the name of jaysus would you taint supposedly the happiest occasion of your life by doing something hurtful and belittling to your partner?

Because the people involved don't see it the same way you do? My wife neither felt hurt nor belittled by the idea.

How exactly is she supposed to approach this partnership of happy equals after watching you celebrate her father's historical role as custodian-owner?

Well that's just a rather shítty way of looking at it tbh, no nice way of saying that.

Just because you don't feel the harm in it doesn't mean it's harmless. Golliwogs were harmless tradition too.

My wife didn't feel the harm in it either, nobody involved felt any harm in it, and yes, Golliwogs were harmless tradition until people started reading way too much into a child's toy. I had a Golliwog when I was a child, given to me as a Christmas present by my elderly next door neighbour, and y'know what it taught me?

Sweet fcukall, I just had fun playing with the doll.

It wasn't until I watched "Gone with the Wind" that I'd a bit of a WTF moment as until then I'd never seen a black person. Even then I didn't make the connection between Golliwogs and black people as I wasn't aware of the history of the doll, and many people I suspect, are unaware of the historical significance of what some people see as a tradition that seems to cause you such outrage. Therefore they don't attach as much significance to it as you do.

Shenshen

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

You are of course completely ignoring the fact that a lot of women very much want this tradition carried out so how on earth can it be hurtful or belittling?

I really can't get inside the heads of some people at all how they can come up with such nonsense about a harmless tradition that a lot of people like to do.

Well, I've read all of this thread (and previous threads on the subject), and while I realise AH isn't exactly representative of general society, there are not very many women on here arguing in favour of asking the father first.
In fact, the women on here seem to be the ones arguing against for the most part.

In real life, the only person I know who has asked the father is from Nigeria (as is his wife). The plural of anecdotes isn't data or fact, but I would question how prevalent it really is these days.

If both husband and wife to be want the father to be asked, by all means go ahead. But I think it would definitely be advisable to discuss it beforehand, as a lot of women have very strong feelings about not continuing the tradition.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

jill_valentine wrote: »

People in this thread are literally telling you that they would find it insulting. The people defending it by insisting it's harmless are effectively telling them they aren't insulted.

It's a dumbass practice harking back to an extremely crappy deal for women that we're all supposed to be long beyond. Why in the name of jaysus would you taint supposedly the happiest occasion of your life by doing something hurtful and belittling to your partner? How exactly is she supposed to approach this partnership of happy equals after watching you celebrate her father's historical role as custodian-owner?

Just because you don't feel the harm in it doesn't mean it's harmless. Golliwogs were harmless tradition too.

Yes, and other people in the thread don't think it is insulting at all - which is exactly why I have said from the start that this is something that should be discussed between a couple before moving forward with it. Some men and women are offended by it, some are indifferent, and some think it is an important part of the whole engagement process. As long as the couple is on the same page about what it means and why, then it isn't really anyone else's business. Given that there isn't some kind of law making this mandatory (or even strong social expectations that pressure men to do this), it is unclear who or what exactly being harmed here, other than other peoples' delicate sensibilities.

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, I've read all of this thread (and previous threads on the subject), and while I realise AH isn't exactly representative of general society, there are not very many women on here arguing in favour of asking the father first.
In fact, the women on here seem to be the ones arguing against for the most part.

As you said though on many topics AH is a very poor representation of actual society and there are actually very few women arguing either way on this thread. In general the opinions expressed here are often the opposite if what I encounter in general and that's not just amount my group of friends but across work colleges, friends of friends etc etc.

Shenshen wrote: »

Well
In real life, the only person I know who has asked the father is from Nigeria (as is his wife). The plural of anecdotes isn't data or fact, but I would question how prevalent it really is these days.

Where as as far as I'm aware almost all if not all the people I know have. Between June and the end of next month I will have been at 3 wedding, all quite different scenarios and all three friends from different circles: two country people getting married, two people from different Irish cities getting married and an Irish woman marrying an English man and in all three of these alone the father of the bride has been asked for their daughters hand.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

I was asked recently by my youngest daughters Fiance and also a few years ago by my oldest daughters now husband. I know my eldest son asked his now father in law and I asked my father in law. I know I had discussed it with my wife and my children had all discussed it with their respective partners. Did it cause any harm nope did it upset anyone nope. In fact we have all have had some good laughs about it in the past.

dm09

My OH's father is a cnut, he'd probably say no.. not that i'd give a sh*t


"Why you gotta be so rude? I'm gonna marry her anyway!"

Tin Foil Hat

An item on the news during the week said that the average age of a man on his wedding day was 35 and the average age of a woman was 32.
Imagine a man/couple asking another person for permission on a decision regarding their own private lives at that age! Pathetic, to be honest.

Shenshen

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

As you said though on many topics AH is a very poor representation of actual society and there are actually very few women arguing either way on this thread. In general the opinions expressed here are often the opposite if what I encounter in general and that's not just amount my group of friends but across work colleges, friends of friends etc etc.

Bluewolf, lazygal, dede12, tigger123, sunshine and flowers, Esterhase, nitrix, FactCheck, indigo twist, Tarzana, Dail Hard, ash24, Jill_valentine, Semele, alroley, and my good self. There might be more, but these are the posters who have made it clear that they are female.

In fact, nearly all the female posters in this thread would find it offensive and disrespectful.
Funnily enough, plenty of male posters keep telling us we're in the wrong to feel insulted. I've just read through much of it again, and I have to say the level of patronising is frankly astonishing.

I don't know where you live and what your social circle is like, but anytime you post (in this thread as in others) I get the feeling there's a hole in the spacetime continuum and you're posting straight from 1952... at this point it's almost becoming surreal.

If a couple are both happy with it then that's great, go for it.

But the lads insisting they would ask regardless and feck how she feels because how the dad feels is more important is a bit ..
so are the claims of "everyone in ireland does it" and "it's only right and respectful"

foreverandever

Shenshen wrote: »

Bluewolf, lazygal, dede12, tigger123, sunshine and flowers, Esterhase, nitrix, FactCheck, indigo twist, Tarzana, Dail Hard, ash24, Jill_valentine, Semele, alroley, and my good self. There might be more, but these are the posters who have made it clear that they are female.

In fact, nearly all the female posters in this thread would find it offensive and disrespectful.
Funnily enough, plenty of male posters keep telling us we're in the wrong to feel insulted. I've just read through much of it again, and I have to say the level of patronising is frankly astonishing.

I don't know where you live and what your social circle is like, but anytime you post (in this thread as in others) I get the feeling there's a hole in the spacetime continuum and you're posting straight from 1952... at this point it's almost becoming surreal.

I'm female and I absolutely wouldn't find it offensive. Equally if he didn't do it I wouldn't be offended either. If people want to look at it as they're being treated as property then fine be offended. I know that would not be what my OH or my father meant and I think it's more a moment for the two of them to enjoy. Beside my OH my father is the most important man in my life so my OH knows I wouldn't be offended. I would marry him with or without my fathers blessing but I'd like to think I wouldn't pick a guy my father didn't like.

People can read into things anyway they want but I never got the impression from one of the men commenting on this thread that it was because they viewed their wife as property or to seek permission to ask, they all just felt it was a nice gesture

foreverandever

bluewolf wrote: »

If a couple are both happy with it then that's great, go for it.

But the lads insisting they would ask regardless and feck how she feels because how the dad feels is more important is a bit ..
so are the claims of "everyone in ireland does it" and "it's only right and respectful"

I haven't seen anyone write that if their OH didn't want their father to be asked that they still would ask anyway?

Idle Passerby

FunLover18 wrote: »

When it comes to marriage proposals, do men still ask the OH's father for permission/their blessing?

It strikes me as extremely old fashioned. Is it a respect thing , and if so, who exactly is it respectful to? If for someone reason they say no would it make a difference?

Girls, do you want your OH to ask your dad before you?

Dads, do you care?

Do men still ask the dad's permission - God I hope not.

I agree its extremely old fashioned

I presume its meant to be respectful to the dad, but at the same time its massively disrespectful to the adult woman you want to marry.

If they said no would it make a difference - it shouldn't because hopefully the woman doesn't still do as daddy says when making life decisions.

Do I want a man to ask my dad - definitely not. If I caught a whiff that he even though it was acceptable I wouldnt be saying yes to him, never mind my dad.

c_man

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

it's just a gesture which is pointless and not well thought out, but still... well intentioned.

Exactly. Have the rest of ye never met men who are just engaged or about to ask the question? They're in no state for all this logical thinking, they're just going with their gut and not trying to make a balls of things. They barely know what they're doing tbh!


If I were to ask a girl, well I'd like to imagine that I'd ask the Dad's "permission" after having popped the question to herself. Real classy like. Show up with a bottle of whiskey and promise I'd look after her. Hopefully there'd be a match on around the time so that we could both broker the awkward after-talk silence with thoughts on the defence of some team neither of us could care less about. Ah I'm an aul' romantic.

The One Doctor

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Very disrespectful to the girl imho. She is not the property of her father and shouldn't be treated as such. She will make her own decisions.

I repeated your post back to my girlfriend. She burst out laughing.

Your man card is hereby revoked.

Tarzana

kryogen wrote: »

Good thing we aren't a couple so or you would have just learned something that would have made you pretty angry.

Ah... yeah... phew! I have idea what your relationship is like, or what her reaction would have been. But I'm not her so this hypothetical is pointless.

psinno wrote: »

Would you be more,the same or less livid if he talked to a friend about it before asking you?

I'd still be really mad, but it's not quite the same thing, as you well know. But yeah, still wouldn't be happy.

Tarzana

Shenshen wrote: »

I don't know where you live and what your social circle is like, but anytime you post (in this thread as in others) I get the feeling there's a hole in the spacetime continuum and you're posting straight from 1952... at this point it's almost becoming surreal.

I know, he is a massive throwback. I can't understand how anyone can grow up like that in Ireland if born later than the '70s.

jill_valentine

The One Doctor wrote: »

I repeated your post back to my girlfriend. She burst out laughing.

Your man card is hereby revoked.

This post does not demonstrate the thing you may think it does.

Tarzana

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

As you said though on many topics AH is a very poor representation of actual society and there are actually very few women arguing either way on this thread.

But yet, your very narrow circle tends to apparently represent the "vast majority", not just in this thread, but in many you contribute to, according to yourself. I'd trust boards.ie to give more of a cross section, TBH.

As for "ew women arguing either way on this thread", well that's some selective reading right there.

Raminahobbin

My father would LOVE to be asked. Absolutely LOVE it. I'm his only daughter, and he's quite traditional. It would mean a lot to him in terms of respect.

We're not close and frequently not on speaking terms, so I would hate it, personally. I feel a little bad that he won't get any of the 'father roles' in a traditional wedding ceremony if I ever get married, but not bad enough to compromise how I feel about it all. I would hate if a partner asked him for permission to marry me, and any wedding ceremony would be completely non-traditional, with no 'giving away' involved. I probably wouldn't let him make a speech either.

Czarcasm

Tarzana wrote: »

But yet, your very narrow circle tends to apparently represent the "vast majority", not just in this thread, but in many you contribute to, according to yourself. I'd trust boards.ie to give more of a cross section, TBH.

Do you not think this thread started out harmless enough, but pretty soon took a fairly nasty turn, and people abandoned the thread then?

As for "ew women arguing either way on this thread", well that's some selective reading right there.

Well come on now, 14, even 50 women, and another 50 men even, if they had all said it was an archaic, stupid tradition that belittled women as property, would hardly be representative of Irish society, not when many of them are still doing the traditional Church wedding having not seen the inside of one in years!

I think it can be very easy to fall into the trap of confirmation bias online tbh.

Any key?

Both my sisters husbands asked my dad. It made him so happy to feel like he was in on a secret.

It has nothing to do with "property" anymore. Our lives, especially if you are in a long term relationship are so different and busy to our parents generation. They just want to feel a part of the excitement. That is all.

I wish my OH could ask my dad but he passed on two weeks after my second sister got engaged. My brother had also told him he was going to propose to his fiance and he took the secret to his grave.

My OH and dad were very close. It would have meant something to me that my dad knew a little of my secret and was excited and happy for me before the thing happened. .

To be honest I think it has more to do with kindness than respect these days.

Tarzana

Tarzana wrote: »

But yet, your very narrow circle tends to apparently represent the "vast majority", not just in this thread, but in many you contribute to, according to yourself. I'd trust boards.ie to give more of a cross section, TBH.

Contrary to what some people have decided (and are trying to convince themselves) I have quite a broad circle of friends. My core group are the people I grew up with but through work I know many people from different parts of the country and abroad and through my gf I know another large group of people from a different part of the county.

blindside88

We got engaged 3 years ago and married last year. I asked her dads permission and he was delighted to be asked. Her two sisters were already engaged and neither husband had asked him. It's always been done in my family and I'd be quite traditional and think it's a nice tradition. After we had gotten engaged her mam thanked me for asking her dad and said "you're the only one that did it right and he was delighted". he's in his 60's so I think he appreciates the sentiment but each to there own. If I had a daughter id expect to be asked out of tradition

The One Doctor

jill_valentine wrote: »

This post does not demonstrate the thing you may think it does.

Heh.

Tarzana

Czarcasm wrote: »

Do you not think this thread started out harmless enough, but pretty soon took a fairly nasty turn, and people abandoned the thread then?

Errr, dunno?

Czarcasm wrote: »

Well come on now, 14, even 50 women, and another 50 men even, if they had all said it was an archaic, stupid tradition that belittled women as property, would hardly be representative of Irish society, not when many of them are still doing the traditional Church wedding having not seen the inside of one in years!

I think it can be very easy to fall into the trap of confirmation bias online tbh.

Probably, but "the vast majority of the country does it because my circle does" isn't much better!

Tarzana

blindside88 wrote: »

If I had a daughter id expect to be asked out of tradition

How would you feel if she didn't want that herself?

Shakespeare's Sister

blindside88 wrote: »

We got engaged 3 years ago and married last year. I asked her dads permission and he was delighted to be asked. Her two sisters were already engaged and neither husband had asked him. It's always been done in my family and I'd be quite traditional and think it's a nice tradition. After we had gotten engaged her mam thanked me for asking her dad and said "you're the only one that did it right and he was delighted". he's in his 60's so I think he appreciates the sentiment but each to there own. If I had a daughter id expect to be asked out of tradition

I definitely don't agree with asking "just because it's the thing to do". It's not even sincere seeing as the marriage is going to take place anyway. Whatever about a misjudged, clumsy yet nice gesture, "permission"... wtf?

greenflash

I asked my father in law's permission but not until we had everything arranged and booked. We'd been living together for six years but her dad is extremely religious, old fashioned and unworldly so it meant a lot to him to be included in something traditional even if it was just for show.

My only regret is that I did not poison my mother in law at the afters.

Wompa1

I won't ask but I'll probably tell the woman's parents before I propose. Not just the father. I'd like to get their approval and also help incase she starts to suspect something, they could help keep her off the trail....I'd probably tell my own parents too. Why wouldn't ya...

I should add...if I'd been with a girl for a while, I'm sure marriage would come up as a topic and if she specifically said not to talk to her parents. I wouldn't....

Tin Foil Hat

Wompa1 wrote: »

I won't ask but I'll probably tell the woman's parents before I propose. Not just the father. I'd like to get their approval and also help incase she starts to suspect something, they could help keep her off the trail....I'd probably tell my own parents too. Why wouldn't ya...

Anyone else on the list of people to be informed before your potential wife gets the opportunity to say yay or nay?

Wompa1

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

Anyone else on the list of people to be informed before your potential wife gets the opportunity to say yay or nay?

Probably her brother. She's very close to him and he shares everything with her. I think it would be cool to get his input...

Ohh wait you are mocking me....I didn't pick up on your sarcasm by text. You rascal!!

Adamantium

To the people who would take offense, your relationship/partnership isn't going to last long with anybody

Sheldons Brain

It is only respectful to ask a father before copulating with his daughter.

Tarzana

Adamantium wrote: »

To the people who would take offense, your relationship/partnership isn't going to last long with anybody

Well, I'm sure you can recognise how stupid your statement is. If not... yikes!

FunLover18

Semele wrote: »

I really don't get the sentimental (or more mawkish) respect thing either. I don't have a problem with respect itself, just to be clear, but I don't see for a second how it applies in this scenario.

When people have been challenged on what they mean by it here it's ended up being completely unexamined circular reasoning:

Why would you ask her dad first?
Because it's respectful.
How is it respectful?
Because it's traditional.
How is that tradition relevant anymore?
Because it'd be disrespectful to ignore it... :rolleyes:

I'm a very private person. I'd be furious if I thought that anyone of my family or friends knew about a potentially major event in my life before I did. I say MY family and friends because it's none of my business whether my partner discussed his plans with his family and friends.

I think this pretty much sums up my reading of thread. I don't really understand why the bride's parents (particularly the father) should be afforded this level of respect. I don't think anyone would argue that it would be disrespectful not to do so, so why this unnecessary bonus respect?

Anyway, some very interesting viewpoints, glad I started the thread. A poll might have been a good idea at some stage to get a true reflection of the gender divide but probably too late in the day now.

Shenshen

Adamantium wrote: »

To the people who would take offense, your relationship/partnership isn't going to last long with anybody

At this point, 10 years and counting.
Yours?

Czarcasm

Shenshen wrote: »

At this point, 10 years and counting.
Yours?

That's it like, I mean, people should surely have some idea long before any talk of marriage whether their boyfriend or girlfriend or future in-laws think that way or not. I mean, it's not like the idea should really come as a surprise to anyone?

I think Adamantium means that if anyone takes offence or thinks that much less of their boyfriend for this, then they shouldn't get married anyway. It's not like this is the biggest issue their relationship will ever face. It helps to keep a sense of perspective on these things.

Shenshen

Czarcasm wrote: »

That's it like, I mean, people should surely have some idea long before any talk of marriage whether their boyfriend or girlfriend or future in-laws think that way or not. I mean, it's not like the idea should really come as a surprise to anyone?

I think Adamantium means that if anyone takes offence or thinks that much less of their boyfriend for this, then they shouldn't get married anyway. It's not like this is the biggest issue their relationship will ever face. It helps to keep a sense of perspective on these things.

Hehe, that's pretty much repeating the point I made in my very first post on thist thread.

We had been living together a few years before we got married, and I should like to think he knows me well. We never talked about the whole "asking the father" thing in so many words, but if he had actually gone and asked him it would make me question how well he actually does know me. And it would have made me question if he really is the person I think he is. Doing this would have been exremely out of character for him, too.

And if I had doubts about that, I feel it would be daft to say yes.

So no, I would probably not have dumped him, as some people interpreted my words, but I would have declined the proposal at that point.

Liam McPoyle

My fiancé is quite traditional and her folks are VERY tradtional however I did not ask his permission, I asked for his blessing. Her and I had discussed it anyway so she knew it was coming.


The funny thing is that I spoke with him approx 2 weeks before I was going to do it and numb nuts said to herself "congratulations, that's great news"

Cue fiancé standing there with a confused look ok her face til it dawned what was goin on.

We laugh about it now but I could have choked the silly oul bollox at the time.

Czarcasm

Czarcasm wrote: »

I genuinely didn't think to ask the whole family as I was already treated like one of the family anyway

Then when you say you were asking him so you were not imposed on the whole family - it sounds pretty superfluous. Because from the perspective of the family - you already knew their feelings on it. Even had he refused - you would not have felt you were imposing yourself on the family after all - because you knew what they felt.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Who said it only went one way?

I mean in general - not specific to your case. Generally the tradition is to ask the father of the bride. Why does the tradition - generally - not go both ways if the tradition is based on the kinds of concepts you described? In the light of _that_ the idea that it is to ask for permission to become part of a family unit - seems to make no sense as why do we ask permission of one family, but not the other. Especially when - as you describe - you would have called off the wedding in the light of her familys refusal but you proceeded with it regardless of your own families one.

Czarcasm wrote: »

I certainly hadn't thought to ask the whole family as they were not in that position of authority to give permission for me to marry their sister.

The father has no such "authority" either. At all.