Asking A Father's Permission

Tarzana

Tarzana wrote: »

Why must the tradition be upheld if it makes no sense today, especially as it has connotations of ownership?

Because traditions are a good thing imo and it makes perfect sense. It is a nice respectful tradition for the parents in law which should be kept alive. Fortunately from my experience recently (with a large number of my friends now at the marrying stage) asking the father of the bride is very much par for the course and carried out by the vast majority of people.

jill_valentine

nc19 wrote: »

This is taking it to the man bashing feminism PC side and thus the losing side.

Hould on, I need to brace myself so I can roll my eyes to this proportionately.

The father being asked is a tradition. Some fathers would feel disrespected if they weren't asked. Not because the daughter is their property but because its what they did and they understood it was about respect and not about the father owning the daughter ffs

There's that vague "respect" thing again. How is it respectful to the bride or the rest of her family that you need to pass it by her father alone before you can get married? Why is he being treated as an authority who needs to be acknowledged in this situation? If there was a "tradition" of writing him a symbolic cheque and getting a symbolic receipt, would you keep on doing that, even if you both understood she wasn't being traded the same way she would have been years before?

Regardless of whether the guy is consciously thinking of his wedding as a kind of transaction, that's precisely what this "tradition" is rooted in. And like it or not, this "respect" you're talking about comes from that. There's no two ways about it, there is no non-gross reasoning behind this dynamic if you give it more than two seconds thought. It's respectful of the father to ask him if you can marry his daughter because....? And it is not disrespectful to the mother, the bride, your own parents, because...?

It was "tradition" not to bury unbaptised babies in proper graveyards. The reason that died out was because the thinking behind it was awful. It's good to stop doing things that come from something nasty, rather than just doing them because it was always done that way.

lm01

Can't see the point of this at all. If he says yes you still have to get the go ahead from the lady in question so what does his yes matter? If he says no what happens then, do you dump her because her da doesn't like you or do you cause further awkwardness by going ahead?

I wouldn't want to be in a relationship where the opinion of any third party mattered that much, especially another adult. That's just me though, at the end of the day it's down to the couple or really to the girl being proposed to since it's her family member who will or won't be involved.

tigger123

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

Because traditions are a good thing imo and it makes perfect sense. It is a nice respectful tradition for the parents in law which should be kept alive. Fortunately from my experience recently (with a large number of my friends now at the marrying stage) asking the father of the bride is very much par for the course and carried out by the vast majority of people.

The plural of anecdote is not data. You can't claim (no more than I can) the frequency with which it occurs.

And whether it's a nice tradition is a matter of opinion, not fact.

jill_valentine

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

Because traditions are a good thing imo and this is a nice respectful one which should be kept alive. Fortunately from my experience recently (with a large number of my friends now at the marrying stage) this particular is very much par for the course and carried out by the vast majority of people.

Why? Why are they a good thing when they're belittling to basically all bar two of the involved parties? Why should we keep such disrespectful traditions alive for no good reason?

eviltwin

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

Because traditions are a good thing imo and it makes perfect sense. It is a nice respectful tradition for the parents in law which should be kept alive. Fortunately from my experience recently (with a large number of my friends now at the marrying stage) asking the father of the bride is very much par for the course and carried out by the vast majority of people.

How many of those people were already living together, had bought property or even had children? Do you not see how pointless it is when couples now tend to have non traditional relationships?

lm01

eviltwin wrote: »

what about a same sex couple or a woman who might be on a second relationship, do you ask her kids??

I'd feel like her kids had more right to input on the decision than her father to be honest. He's not going to have to live with the husband is he?

robinph

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

Because traditions are a good thing imo and it makes perfect sense. It is a nice respectful tradition for the parents in law which should be kept alive. Fortunately from my experience recently (with a large number of my friends now at the marrying stage) asking the father of the bride is very much par for the course and carried out by the vast majority of people.

It's not respecting your new potential wife, and I can't see how it is showing any respect to her father.

It is just asking him a question which you'll potentially ignore the answer to, and that would definitely not be respectful. Once the pair of you are over 18 and financially independent, it's nobody else's business.

enda1

jill_valentine wrote: »

Why? Why are they a good thing when they're belittling to basically all bar two of the involved parties? Why should we keep such disrespectful traditions alive for no good reason?

I especially miss the good ol' traditions of beating children for slight mistakes, sending unwed pregnant women to the laundries and the tight grip of the church on all aspects of life in traditional Ireland. Tradition, it's good by the way :rolleyes:

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

How many of those people were already living together, had bought property or even had children? Do you not see how pointless it is when couples now tend to have non traditional relationships?

None have children and a lot were not living together at proposal time (the majority in fact were not), though of the ones not living together a number are in the process of buying/building a house.

jill_valentine

nc19 wrote: »

And the groom asking for the fathers blessing does not mean the bride has to accept either. The women on this thread are being a bit too touchy about this whole thing imo

Funny that. Tell you what though, next time I'll run my opinion past my dad before voicing it. He'll probably say yes, but it's only respectful.

Also today, black people getting "touchy" about the tradition of referring to grown black adults as "boy", and Catholics getting "touchy" about the tradition of marching through their neighbourhoods to celebrate their ancestors defeat. This strange wave of people directly belittled by traditions being the ones most likely to take exception to it shows no sign of stopping!

eviltwin

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

None have children and a lot were not living together at proposal time (the majority in fact were not), though of the ones not living together a number are in the process of buying/building a house.

Well that is quite rare, its pretty common now for most couples to have lived together before marriage which makes the blessing/permission thing a bit redundant. Obviously if you are of a very traditional mindset and have an old fashioned view of marriage and courtships I'm sure it seems the obvious thing to do but not asking isn't being rude, its not a sign of disrespect.

Tarzana

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

Because traditions are a good thing imo and it makes perfect sense.

Not always, some traditions need to die. Just like some rules of etiquette have gone out the window because they made no sense. The ones that remain are the ones that have solid reasoning behind them.

Would you still ask a prospective father-in-law if you knew your potential bride-to-be would be unhappy with you doing so?

It does amuse me how you extrapolate your small, geographically close social circle (you've said before that you went to secondary with most of your friends) to encapsulate the "vast majority of people".

Henry Ford III

No disrespect to the lady concerned and it's already decided in any event, but I'd still be inclined to ask, particularly if I thought the Father might pony up for the reception

somesoldiers

I asked my father in law. He said "fine as long as you don't expect me to pay for the wedding"

jill_valentine

enda1 wrote: »

I especially miss the good ol' traditions of beating children for slight mistakes, sending unwed pregnant women to the laundries and the tight grip of the church on all aspects of life in traditional Ireland. Tradition, it's good by the way :rolleyes:

Lets not forget the tradition of making women quit their jobs on marrying. Traditions woo!

Balmed Out

jill_valentine wrote: »

Lets not forget the tradition of making women quit their jobs on marrying. Traditions woo!

Would you accept an engagement ring?

enda1

Balmed Out wrote: »

Would you accept an engagement ring?

Elaborate?

PhoenixParker

It's not old fashioned nor is it traditional.

The tradition, which has somehow or other been warped, was that engagement proceeds as follows.

Step 1: Man decides to ask girl to marry him
Step 2: Man asks girl to marry him
Step 3: She consents, or occasionally consents subject to her parents blessing
Step 4: Man approaches girls father and says that girl has agreed to marry him. Requests father's consent.
Step 5: Girl (usually in next room) tells mother what's going on.
Step 6: Everyone else gets told of engagement
. . .

You'll notice that the girls consent is asked BEFORE the fathers.
Not after.

Read any old novel or Jane Austen book and you'll see that that's how it always proceeds.
The father's blessing/permission is never asked before the girls.

This way of doing things is common courtesy. I mean if you're close to your parents of course you'll tell them first.
While asking for their explicit consent is no longer necessary, I think they're still likely to make any strenuous objections known, and unless there's other factors at play it's generally wise to listen to a parents objections to an engagement.

Carlos Orange

enda1 wrote: »

Elaborate?

I think earlier in the thread someone mentioned that engagement rings traditionally carried the same connotation of ownership but apparently they are fine now because they don't now. But for some reason this isn't true about asking a fathers permission even though I think only one person has said they are actually giving the father a veto over the marriage.

nc19

jill_valentine wrote: »

Funny that. Tell you what though, next time I'll run my opinion past my dad before voicing it. He'll probably say yes, but it's only respectful!

Now you're getting it

Tarzana

psinno wrote: »

I think earlier in the thread someone mentioned that engagement rings traditionally carried the same connotation of ownership but apparently they are fine now because they don't now. But for some reason this isn't true about asking a fathers permission even though I think only one person has said they are actually giving the father a veto over the marriage.

Well, I personally wouldn't care about getting an engagement ring myself.

nc19

Tarzana wrote: »

Well, I personally wouldn't care about getting an engagement ring myself.

Do you have one already????

eviltwin

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It's not old fashioned nor is it traditional.

The tradition, which has somehow or other been warped, was that engagement proceeds as follows.

Step 1: Man decides to ask girl to marry him
Step 2: Man asks girl to marry him
Step 3: She consents, or occasionally consents subject to her parents blessing
Step 4: Man approaches girls father and says that girl has agreed to marry him. Requests father's consent.
Step 5: Girl (usually in next room) tells mother what's going on.
Step 6: Everyone else gets told of engagement
. . .

You'll notice that the girls consent is asked BEFORE the fathers.
Not after.

Read any old novel or Jane Austen book and you'll see that that's how it always proceeds.
The father's blessing/permission is never asked before the girls.

This way of doing things is common courtesy. I mean if you're close to your parents of course you'll tell them first.
While asking for their explicit consent is no longer necessary, I think they're still likely to make any strenuous objections known, and unless there's other factors at play it's generally wise to listen to a parents objections to an engagement.

The first person we told when we got engaged was my mother in law as she is very close to both of us but it was presented as a done deal. There was no blessing involved and we told her together. Of course if you have a good relationship with your parents you'll probably share the news with them first but that's not what we are talking about.

Tarzana

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It's not old fashioned nor is it traditional.

The tradition, which has somehow or other been warped, was that engagement proceeds as follows.

Step 1: Man decides to ask girl to marry him
Step 2: Man asks girl to marry him
Step 3: She consents, or occasionally consents subject to her parents blessing
Step 4: Man approaches girls father and says that girl has agreed to marry him. Requests father's consent.
Step 5: Girl (usually in next room) tells mother what's going on.
Step 6: Everyone else gets told of engagement
. . .

You'll notice that the girls consent is asked BEFORE the fathers.
Not after.

Yeah... consent is still being sought from the father. So, she knows first but he's still asked for his permission. Sounds old-fashioned to me!

Tarzana

nc19 wrote: »

Do you have one already????

No, I've never been engaged. I don't care for jewellery though.

enda1

psinno wrote: »

I think earlier in the thread someone mentioned that engagement rings traditionally carried the same connotation of ownership but apparently they are fine now because they don't now. But for some reason this isn't true about asking a fathers permission even though I think only one person has said they are actually giving the father a veto over the marriage.

But you haven't explained what the new meaning to the "tradition" of asking the father is! If like you say it is no longer taken to be a consent issue, what is it? It certainly appears to point towards men being more important than women (why not ask the mother? does the woman ask her future in-laws if she's to propose?) It points at ownership - it clearly does if you're asking for permission!

Like you've mentioned, the ring no longer symbolises ownership. That said I wouldn't be a fan of it myself as I don't like the one sided gender divide of it along with the materialistic side, but it seems the symbol of love and commitment is coming forward stronger by the year and the two sided ring wearing is too, so perhaps my opinion will change.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

Shenshen wrote: »

I have to say if my husband had gone and asked my father, I would not have married him.

Not because of that one act, but becasue the act would have communicated to me that he regards me as another man's property that he wishes to acquire. I would not want to marry a man like that.

Luckily, it never came up as I asked him. And no, I never asked his father or mother either. I only met them after we were engaged anyway.

Esterhase wrote: »

I'd feel insulted if my bf went to my father instead of me first if he was considering getting married. He already knows my feelings on the matter, so if he disregarded those and asked anyway to be 'respectful' or whatever I'd be saying no.

bluewolf wrote: »

Plenty of couples buy each other an engagement present or skip it entirely.

I never get how people aren't allowed have their own preferences on this without someone else waving around another activity like a trump card

The thing with weddings is that 'traditions' have become a la carte - i.e. whatever 'traditions' choose to stick with are the ones that they find favorable in some way. So I see why some people get grouchy when one tradition is harped on and not others, and I can certainly see why it seems hypocritical to say "don't ask my father for permission - I'm not his property to hand off!" and then the first act in the wedding ceremony is the father handing off his daughter to her new husband!

Ultimately, I think that this is a case of knowing who you are engaging with. I don't see how a couple having a talk about this beforehand 'ruins the surprise'; if you are considering marriage, then these are just the kinds of things that you talk about. If your partner is adamantly opposed to this practice, you might want to reconsider it. On the other hand, if your partner thinks that this is an important step in becoming a member of your family, or you know that your father would appreciate the gesture - because that is all it really is, a gesture - then roll with it.

I'm not a fan of doing the 'done' thing 'just because': before we got engaged, I made it clear that I was adamantly opposed to the whole diamond engagement ring/"2 months salary" nonsense, and when I got married, we had the ceremony in the back garden, my father didn't give me away, and we didn't have a bridal party. The important thing is what matters to you and your partner. If this is one tradition that really matters to one party and doesn't offend anyone else, then I don't think it is really worth arguing about, much less threatening to walk away from what was at that point a stable, loving relationship.

nc19

Tarzana wrote: »

No, I've never been engaged. I don't care for jewellery though.

If presented with one you would obviously turn it away given what it represents wouldnt you?

eviltwin

nc19 wrote: »

If presented with one you would obviously turn it away given what it represents wouldnt you?

It doesn't represent ownership, its really a gift isn't it. Most brides now give their intended a gift too.