Windows 10

Slutmonkey57b

Ends in 30, was the build offered on the insider website and despite being on fast track it hadn't offered me a newer one at the time of my post above.

If there is one, and I don't have a notification about it today, I'll consider that another bug.

Even without the bugs, it's a horribly ugly user interface and there's no chance I'm switching from 7 to deal with icons from 1985 and swathes of context free text in an ocean of wasted real estate.

The build conference actually had me excited about this, but what they claimed it's capable of (integration, smart, intuitive, performance oriented) it really, really isn't. Give it another year and maybe it'll be ready.

_Kaiser_

I've decided to hold off to post-RTM before I re-upgrade myself.. Got a DELL Latitude E7440 recently and the latest builds caused massive overheating and the fan to go mad from boot.
It got so bad that it fried the speakers and luckily I got them and the motherboard changed under warranty but there's reports of similar occurrences with different brands too so I've logged it and hoping it'll be fixed as it's a pretty big show stopper!!

Morrisseeee

Q. I'm currently using build 10074 on a new HD and I want to go to the latest build 10130, but I can't use the update over the internet, can I download the iso and use that to upgrade?

Bayberry

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Q. I'm currently using build 10074 on a new HD and I want to go to the latest build 10130, but I can't use the update over the internet, can I download the iso and use that to upgrade?

I'd hold off a few days - it seems that a new build is anticipated shortly.

But if you want to go ahead with 10130, the ISOs are here:
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/preview-iso

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

What are peoples thoughts on this getting released on Jul 29th?

~30 days to go and it appears a long way from being a finished product. Will MS push the date or just release it?

Bayberry

Brycen Victorious Sophomore wrote: »

What are peoples thoughts on this getting released on Jul 29th?

~30 days to go and it appears a long way from being a finished product. Will MS push the date or just release it?

MS isn't going to push the date. And they've got a lot more information about the current state of play than hurlers on the ditch running a build that MS started using internally 2 months ago.

You'll got 12 months to get your free update anyway so there's no need to stress the July 29th date - July 29th 2016 is the real deadline for anyone who concerned about being able to use Win10.

Morrisseeee

Bayberry wrote: »

I'd hold off a few days - it seems that a new build is anticipated shortly.

But if you want to go ahead with 10130, the ISOs are here:
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/preview-iso

Yeah I have the iso, but can I update/upgrade my current build from the iso>dvd, without wiping my current build ? Will there be an option on it to update ?
Or am I missing something ?

Bayberry

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Yeah I have the iso, but can I update/upgrade my current build from the iso>dvd, without wiping my current build ? Will there be an option on it to update ?

Sorry, I missed that in your original question.

The short answer is that yes, you can do an update from the ISO. The longer answer is that a quick search suggests that people who are having difficulties upgrading from 10074 online are having the same problem upgrading from the ISO.

Morrisseeee

Cheers, I'll give it a go and report back. Some older programs are working on the 10074 build so i'm happy out.

Slutmonkey57b

For anyone doubting the borked state of this OS, here is an actual screenshot of what Windows Update looks like in it, featuring many of the problems described above.




As you can see, there are any number of issues. The amount of wasted UI space is criminal. The app doesn't understand its own size or boundaries. The automatic spacing and sizing of elements is a joke, or non existent.

T-Bird

Tried it on laptop and PC, and unistalled them both. Thats the first time I did that since they started doing previews. The old version reinstalls in record time.

CatInABox

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

For anyone doubting the borked state of this OS, here is an actual screenshot of what Windows Update looks like in it, featuring many of the problems described above.




As you can see, there are any number of issues. The amount of wasted UI space is criminal. The app doesn't understand its own size or boundaries. The automatic spacing and sizing of elements is a joke, or non existent.

Have you reported that issue? It's not occurring on my system, so not much point in me doing it. Fact is that you're testing pre-release software, so there are going to be bugs and issues like this.

You're also comparing the development of Windows 10 to the development of Windows 7, which isn't actually an apples to apples comparison any more.

The entire development process has totally changed since 7, with Windows 10 they are developing at "Internet Speed", essentially relying on the fact that ubiquitous Internet access allows them to make changes right up until release, and to fix any last minutes issues with a day-one patch. This is after all, the company that released a hardware product that required you to download the OS on day one just to get it to work.

If you've been following the progression of the builds, then you'd see the rapid progress that's been made in the last couple of builds. All features have essentially been finished at this stage, and now it's just applying polish, something that leaked builds have confirmed as massively improved.

Fair enough if you don't like the new UI. I can't say anything that'll change you opinion, and wouldn't want to. I happen to find the UI quite impressive, and am delighted that the old control panel is even less relevant, I really hated that thing. Of course, I'm disappointed that the old control panel is still around at all, to be honest.

Slutmonkey57b

CatInABox wrote: »

Have you reported that issue? It's not occurring on my system, so not much point in me doing it. Fact is that you're testing pre-release software, so there are going to be bugs and issues like this.

You're also comparing the development of Windows 10 to the development of Windows 7, which isn't actually an apples to apples comparison any more.

The entire development process has totally changed since 7, with Windows 10 they are developing at "Internet Speed", essentially relying on the fact that ubiquitous Internet access allows them to make changes right up until release, and to fix any last minutes issues with a day-one patch. This is after all, the company that released a hardware product that required you to download the OS on day one just to get it to work.

If you've been following the progression of the builds, then you'd see the rapid progress that's been made in the last couple of builds. All features have essentially been finished at this stage, and now it's just applying polish, something that leaked builds have confirmed as massively improved.

Fair enough if you don't like the new UI. I can't say anything that'll change you opinion, and wouldn't want to. I happen to find the UI quite impressive, and am delighted that the old control panel is even less relevant, I really hated that thing. Of course, I'm disappointed that the old control panel is still around at all, to be honest.

You've hit on another problem though. All versions of windows have a problem with redundancy: old versions of code sitting around 20 or 30 years after they've been replaced. But while Microsoft have touted this new ui experience paradigm (and tried to shift the blame onto users when they don't get it right), all they've actually done is stick yet another ui skin on top of the existing 5 layers of ui designs. You can go from 10 >7>XP>98 all by following different options within the ui. And some of those lower levels were introduced in NT.

It's a farce. They're not fixing anything, they're just painting over some parts of it. Take the task manager, which is actually an improvement over 7. However, there's now the task manager, the resource manager, and the performance manager snap-in. All doing the same job, with similar interfaces, and similar capabilities, but why are there 3 of them? It's no good revamping the win 7 task manner when you've left two other redundant utilities behind it (which are only of use to enterprise users or devs anyway)

As for developing "at internet speed", that's just code for " testing is expensive and we can't be bothered re-hiring all the testers we fired ". It's amazing consumers have been fooled by tech companies into thinking that being sold a broken product is actually a good thing. Windows 7 was solid, and fixed many of the problems with vista, because they took an approach that qa and testing were embedded with dev in a way that they were sitting and working together, meaning fiddly stupid problems were sorted out before code was submitted. Win 10 clearly doesn't have that, and " iterate quickly "doesn't make up for that: it's a throwback to Microsoft of the 80s when dirty hacks were thrown in and left alone afterwards.

CatInABox

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

You've hit on another problem though. All versions of windows have a problem with redundancy: old versions of code sitting around 20 or 30 years after they've been replaced. But while Microsoft have touted this new ui experience paradigm (and tried to shift the blame onto users when they don't get it right), all they've actually done is stick yet another ui skin on top of the existing 5 layers of ui designs. You can go from 10 >7>XP>98 all by following different options within the ui. And some of those lower levels were introduced in NT.

Really?

As to your point about the layers of UI design, that's a fair point. I wish that they'd spend time updating all of it, and depreciating support for older systems. It's hard to do when you're selling your OS as an OS that supports legacy systems for enterprise use.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

It's a farce. They're not fixing anything, they're just painting over some parts of it. Take the task manager, which is actually an improvement over 7. However, there's now the task manager, the resource manager, and the performance manager snap-in. All doing the same job, with similar interfaces, and similar capabilities, but why are there 3 of them? It's no good revamping the win 7 task manner when you've left two other redundant utilities behind it (which are only of use to enterprise users or devs anyway)

And that's exactly why they are there. For the standard user, the updated task manager is all that they need. They also provide further tools for Enterprise and Dev usage.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

As for developing "at internet speed", that's just code for " testing is expensive and we can't be bothered re-hiring all the testers we fired ". It's amazing consumers have been fooled by tech companies into thinking that being sold a broken product is actually a good thing. Windows 7 was solid, and fixed many of the problems with vista, because they took an approach that qa and testing were embedded with dev in a way that they were sitting and working together, meaning fiddly stupid problems were sorted out before code was submitted. Win 10 clearly doesn't have that, and " iterate quickly "doesn't make up for that: it's a throwback to Microsoft of the 80s when dirty hacks were thrown in and left alone afterwards.

No, it's a fundamental change in how Windows is going to be delivered from now on. Instead of one big release every three years, new features are going to be added to as they are developed, so the Windows 10 that is released next month will not be the same Windows 10 in a year, or even six months.

As to their development set-up, they're still developing with many small teams of a programmer, a tester and a project manager, the same way that they've developed the last several releases.

They've also asked for feedback on how the previews should be released, and the vast majority of people voted for "more releases, more often, but with more problems." If you've got a problem with how they're doing running the preview, then I'd suggest not taking part and waiting until the final version is released.



For everyone else, there's a new build out 10158. The main change is Microsoft Edge branding, with polish all over the place. If you've been using Sparten before now, then copy your favourites from %localappdata%/Packages/Microsoft.Windows.Spartan_cw5n1h2txyewy/AC/Spartan/User/Default/Favorites to %userprofile%/Favorites, and then import from Internet Explorer.

Read more here.

Slutmonkey57b

CatInABox wrote: »

Really?

Really. Recall all their excuses about the disastrous introduction of the start screen in win 8, it was all framed as "we misjudged how ready people were for this new touch oriented interface", I.e. "look at all those dumb users, we're just too far ahead". The truth is that thanks to phones and iPads, even your granny is comfortable with touchscreen interfaces which are *well designed, well thought out, have obvious points of interaction, and which actually work*. Win 8 was a disaster of unintuitive nonsense without any indication how things worked and no internal logic.

As to your point about the layers of UI design, that's a fair point. I wish that they'd spend time updating all of it, and depreciating support for older systems. It's hard to do when you're selling your OS as an OS that supports legacy systems for enterprise use.

That's one of the reasons I was so shocked, the build conference seemed to indicate that sort of fundamental rebuilding was the reason Win10 would be such a departure. But it's not. I don't know what they're doing under the hood, but they're making the legacy problem worse, not better. They can talk about modern universal apps all they like, this sort of thing gives me no confidence in them at all.

and that's exactly why they are there. For the standard user, the updated task manager is all that they need. They also provide further tools for Enterprise and Dev usage.

Well yes. Which beggars the question, why not make the differences between their sku's more meaningful, and strip the "home" version of some of these redundancies?

No, it's a fundamental change in how Windows is going to be delivered from now on. Instead of one big release every three years, new features are going to be added to as they are developed, so the Windows 10 that is released next month will not be the same Windows 10 in a year, or even six months.

As to their development set-up, they're still developing with many small teams of a programmer, a tester and a project manager, the same way that they've developed the last several releases.

If they're still using that development setup, it's not being adhered to like it was before. Given the state of this OS one month out, I'll never pick it up. "Deliver changes when you're ready" is all well and good, but that doesn't preclude "ready" meaning what it actually should mean; "we tested it and it works".

They're clearly not sticking to a decent qa standard when they're releasing builds.

CatInABox

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Really. Recall all their excuses about the disastrous introduction of the start screen in win 8, it was all framed as "we misjudged how ready people were for this new touch oriented interface", I.e. "look at all those dumb users, we're just too far ahead". The truth is that thanks to phones and iPads, even your granny is comfortable with touchscreen interfaces which are *well designed, well thought out, have obvious points of interaction, and which actually work*. Win 8 was a disaster of unintuitive nonsense without any indication how things worked and no internal logic.

Huh. I've high lighted what I think is relevant point. Not sure how you go from that to blaming the user. Not defending the UI in Windows 8 by any stretch of imagination, but Microsoft pretty quickly acknowledged that they made a mistake, particularly when they fired the guy in charge of Win8 development.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

That's one of the reasons I was so shocked, the build conference seemed to indicate that sort of fundamental rebuilding was the reason Win10 would be such a departure. But it's not. I don't know what they're doing under the hood, but they're making the legacy problem worse, not better. They can talk about modern universal apps all they like, this sort of thing gives me no confidence in them at all.

I don't think they're making it worse to be honest, it's better than it was in Windows 8, as more and more settings are migrating from the control panel to the settings app. Coming from windows 7, I can see your point, however, they are clearing phasing out the old control panel, even from the start of the preview. I'd expect that to continue past the release of windows 10.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Well yes. Which beggars the question, why not make the differences between their sku's more meaningful, and strip the "home" version of some of these redundancies?

I, like many others, develop on the home version. Why take something we might use away? Besides, other than a few bells and whistles, the differences between "Home" and "Enterprise" is just licensing, and always has been.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

If they're still using that development setup, it's not being adhered to like it was before. Given the state of this OS one month out, I'll never pick it up. "Deliver changes when you're ready" is all well and good, but that doesn't preclude "ready" meaning what it actually should mean; "we tested it and it works".

They're clearly not sticking to a decent qa standard when they're releasing builds.

You're right, they're not. They've acknowledged that the builds they release are going to have issues, sometimes large issues. In fact, to sign up to the preview, YOU have to acknowledge that there will be issues:

Sign up page wrote:

Download and install the preview only if you

Want to try out software that’s still in development and like sharing your opinion about it.

Don’t mind lots of updates or a UI design that might change significantly over time.

Really know your way around a PC and feel comfortable troubleshooting problems, backing up data, formatting a hard drive, installing an operating system from scratch, or restoring your old one if necessary.

Know what an ISO file is and how to use it.

Aren't installing it on your everyday computer.

We're not kidding about the expert thing. So if you think BIOS is a new plant-based fuel, Insider Preview may not be right for you.
Things to keep in mind

Unexpected PC crashes could damage or even delete your files, so you should back up everything. Some printers and other hardware might not work, and some software might not install or work correctly, including antivirus or security programs. You might also have trouble connecting to home or corporate networks.

Some installed apps might not yet work as expected or might not be available in your country or region. For example, Cortana is currently only available in English (United States), English (United Kingdom), Chinese (Simplified), German (Germany), French (France), Italian, and Spanish (Spain). To be able to use Cortana, the country or region for your system must be set to one of the available languages, and you also need to have installed that language's version of Insider Preview. In addition, the Cortana features that are available in one language might be different from those that are available in another.

Also, if your PC runs into problems, Microsoft will likely examine your system files. If the privacy of your system files is a concern, consider using a different PC. For more info, read our privacy statement.

I've high lighted the bits that I think are relevant.

The good news though, is that Windows 7 is not going to go away any time soon, it'll continue to exist for some time. I however, think Windows 10 is a step up. You should try out the new build today, it's got a lot of polish on it.

CatInABox

Indicative of their pace of development, they're about to release build 10159 tonight, two builds in the space of a day.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I would presume it was because of some major bug or issue with 10158.

CatInABox

Brycen Victorious Sophomore wrote: »

I would presume it was because of some major bug or issue with 10158.

300 minor fixes and a new background.

Bayberry

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

For anyone doubting the borked state of this OS, here is an actual screenshot of what Windows Update looks like in it, featuring many of the problems described above.




As you can see, there are any number of issues. The amount of wasted UI space is criminal. The app doesn't understand its own size or boundaries. The automatic spacing and sizing of elements is a joke, or non existent.

Here's what that screen looks like in the current build - 10159.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I'm not seeing that Bayberry. Perhaps a GFX card/driver issue? What's your card/driver version?

Bayberry

Brycen Victorious Sophomore wrote: »

I'm not seeing that Bayberry. Perhaps a GFX card/driver issue? What's your card/driver version?

Not seeing what? I'm showing that at least part of the problem that SlutMonkey complained about has been dealt with in the most recent build. (And you may not have noticed it anyway, because its at least 2 clicks deep on the Updates page). In his screenshot from an earlier build, the details of an update didn't flow within the text window that they were displayed in - now the text flows properly.

He also complained about wasted space, because the text is restrained to a single column, and ignores the actual width of the window. It still does that, but that's pretty common these days - many text heavy sites use fixed column widths, no matter how wide the browser window is. An argument coud be made that the text column should be centered in the window, rather than always being on the left, but for this type of dialog I'm not convinced it makes a difference, especially as the back arrow will always be in the top left of the window.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

My point is that I am not seeing the problem that Slutmonkey57b posted, so it's obviously a graphics card or driver issue. (although I'm seeing other issues that I've reported) That is all.

I do agree with him on the wasted space.

Bayberry wrote: »

Not seeing what? I'm showing that at least part of the problem that SlutMonkey complained about has been dealt with in the most recent build. (And you may not have noticed it anyway, because its at least 2 clicks deep on the Updates page). In his screenshot from an earlier build, the details of an update didn't flow within the text window that they were displayed in - now the text flows properly.

He also complained about wasted space, because the text is restrained to a single column, and ignores the actual width of the window. It still does that, but that's pretty common these days - many text heavy sites use fixed column widths, no matter how wide the browser window is. An argument coud be made that the text column should be centered in the window, rather than always being on the left, but for this type of dialog I'm not convinced it makes a difference, especially as the back arrow will always be in the top left of the window.

Slutmonkey57b

Brycen Victorious Sophomore wrote: »

My point is that I am not seeing the problem that Slutmonkey57b posted, so it's obviously a graphics card or driver issue. (although I'm seeing other issues that I've reported) That is all.

I do agree with him on the wasted space.

It raises another question about their design choices though, doesn't it? What was wrong with the concept of listing the updates in one part of the window, and showing the detail description in another part (like 7 does)?

In 10, you get a lost of updates, then you have to click in to reach individually, read it, click out, click the next one... All in the same window, this leading to this ridiculous and unnecessary sizing problem.

ED E

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

In 10, you get a lost of updates, then you have to click in to reach individually, read it, click out, click the next one... All in the same window, this leading to this ridiculous and unnecessary sizing problem.

Have to agree thats pretty terrible alright.

So many features of 7 they should have just kept really....

CatInABox

ED E wrote: »

Have to agree thats pretty terrible alright.

So many features of 7 they should have just kept really....

Yeah, I agree that it's lacking compared to what was there.

It looks like that past of it is unfinished though, so hopefully they improve things.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

10162 out now. Just installing it.

CatInABox

Brycen Victorious Sophomore wrote: »

10162 out now. Just installing it.

It's as solid as the last two. Three builds in four days, they're really hammering it into shape for launch now.

200motels

I have Windows 10 preview installed on virtual box since last year and I have to say I'm just not happy with it at the moment, the final build may well be better, I won't be upgrading my 7 PC to it but I will upgrade my 8.1 as I have a dual boot, I don't like the way the personalized page is set up now for themes etc, I don't like the start menu, it's better than 8.1 but still not a patch on 7, maybe this will all change but the latest build is not a runner for me.

wheresmybeaver

I've updated my laptop with Windows 8.1 Pro to 10 (build 10130), by default it was on Slow ring but yesterday I changed this to Fast ring. No updates since then.

I've read about some users having issues getting updates through WU on 10130 but I've had other Defender updates etc install fine, should I just hang on a few days or is there something I should be checking?

Even at this build I'm finding it pretty good.