Windows 10

Capt'n Midnight

Don't forget there's a year to upgrade.

Cautious users could just take the traditional approach and not touch a substantially new version of windows until after the first service pack.

Bayberry

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Cautious users could just take the traditional approach and not touch a substantially new version of windows until after the first service pack.

There won't be a Service Pack. The last Service Pack for Windows was Win7 SP1, released in March 2010. Some could argue that Windows 8.1 was just a Service Pack for Windows 8 (Microsoft is clear that it's not), but the same logic could be used to argue that Windows 10 is just a service pack for Windows 8.1.

We don't know yet how updates to Windows 10 will be numbered (or named), but it is likely that changes will be introduced incrementally - there won't be any "big bang" launch days any more (or at least not in the next 5 years - I wouldn't make any bets beyond that!)

Slutmonkey57b

I think their windows strategy is going to be determined by how well the launch of this goes. They can mutter all they like about windows as a service and ongoing deployments but if enterprises don't start picking this up and they don't have a very significant pickup then you can expect this rhetoric to be dropped fairly sharpish. Sinofsky was responsible for turning things around after vista but he was shown the door a week after 8 flopped. The pressure is still there to succeed.

I can't see this one doing it.

Capt'n Midnight

Bayberry wrote: »

There won't be a Service Pack. The last Service Pack for Windows was Win7 SP1, released in March 2010. Some could argue that Windows 8.1 was just a Service Pack for Windows 8 (Microsoft is clear that it's not), but the same logic could be used to argue that Windows 10 is just a service pack for Windows 8.1.

You know what I mean
and yes I consider 8.1 a service pack for 8.0 like
98 SE was a service pack for 98
95 OSR2 was the pack for 95
NT 3.51 for NT 3.5
Windows 3.11 for windows 3.1
Dos 6.2 for Dos 6
etc. etc.

Bayberry

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I think their windows strategy is going to be determined by how well the launch of this goes. They can mutter all they like about windows as a service and ongoing deployments but if enterprises don't start picking this up and they don't have a very significant pickup then you can expect this rhetoric to be dropped fairly sharpish.

Enterprise take-up is only relevant in so far as Microsoft doesn't care what version of Windows they run as long as it's Windows. With Software Assurance, Enterprises pay the same whether they stick with Win7, Win8 or Win10.

Having said that, Microsoft will want to see Win10 deployments going foreward, and Win10 will certainly be an easier sell for Enterprise rollouts than Win8 was. They may be driven by hardware refresh cycles as much as anything, but I expect that Windows 10 will outnumber Win8 in the Enterprise in no time flat - the key question is what will happen then. Win7 has 5 years left, and the companies who left it to the last 6 months before XP expired before they did a Win7 delpoyment, will probably still be running Win7 in 5 years time, but I think a lot of better managed companies wll be looking at what else they can leverage from Win10 if/when they're doing a hardware refresh in the next 2 years.

ED E

Bayberry wrote: »

We don't know yet how updates to Windows 10 will be numbered (or named), but it is likely that changes will be introduced incrementally - there won't be any "big bang" launch days any more (or at least not in the next 5 years - I wouldn't make any bets beyond that!)

The trolls among us might suggest that Redmond will just "copy" Cupertino and do 10.MajorVersion.MinorVersion with a new major version every couple years.


I've given my VM 4GB of RAM and 3x2.4Ghz ULV cores to run with under HyperV, she's reasonably snappy. Be interested to see what it'd be like with an SSD on an old dual core Athlon, that'd be a real test. Gonna see if I can work purely within it for a few days to really get a good feel for it.

unkel

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

2. The lowered system requirements are offset by the performance bugs and incompatibilities.

Can I counter that by giving one simple but specific example - my own main PC?

I built it 7.5 years ago. Before this PC, I used to replace my main setup every 18 months or so, as at that stage it would have got completely outdated (for heavy overclocked 24/7, but not gaming use)

So when I built it back in early '08, I installed Vista 64 bit which was pretty brutal in terms of driver issues, performance bugs and incompatibilities

The next year brought Windows 7 which quickly improved performance and with hardware vendors quickly adapting and releasing drivers. It had higher system requirements though

Another 2 years later, in '11 we got Windows 8. No need to give out in this post about the shortcomings of W8 / W8.1, but indeed it brought me so much performance improvements with a smaller footprint that I could not justify building a new PC, even though it was already 3 years old at that stage (first preview for developers). Admittedly, I had changed the main drive to an SSD by then

Now, another 4 years later, this trend has continued. I want a new PC, but still can't justify it until the next Intel tick or even tock

I've had every single build of Windows 10 since the first preview and I have had very few issues. Performance is excellent. Again, it is unbelievable that my PC is now 7.5 years old and still performing very well.

Slutmonkey57b

That's certainly great, and I wouldn't even put it down as anecdotal: the performance curve for windows does effectively follow that pattern. However it also demonstrates that the problem with your build was actually Vista. If you had started from XP, you'd show a bell curve. If Microsoft had concentrated on performance during vista development then there wouldn't have been low hanging fruit for subsequent versions to optimise with.

The history of windows since XP is really a list of missed opportunities. If they had concentrated and looked at fixing the deficiencies (since it is pretty universally agreed that most of their ui choices have been a mistake or unused) then imagine where they would stand now:
A modern file system with better low level performance and better tools such as search, file copy, fragmentation etc. (rip longhorn).
Elimination and consolidation of 30 years of ui developments.
A less restrictive structure which allows for better acceptance of developing hardware like resolution increases in monitors, latency rated in hardware, 64 bit software (and what happens when things move beyond 64 bit?)

Thinking about most of the improvements in 8 and 10 such as multi-monitor and high DPI support, those are actually examples of ms finally throwing off code that should have been thrown out 20 odd years ago, because it was based on assumptions made in a dirty hack in the 80's.

7 is the only bright spot since XP because it's the only time ms stopped throwing new paradigms at us and said "what do the users want us to fix?". They still didn't do it all, but they listened. If 8 and 10 weren't so obsessed with throwing half thought out, badly implemented, inconsistent and functionally useless interface paradigms at us, they'd have a much better chance of standing on their own two feet.

Slutmonkey57b

Bayberry wrote: »

Enterprise take-up is only relevant in so far as Microsoft doesn't care what version of Windows they run as long as it's Windows. With Software Assurance, Enterprises pay the same whether they stick with Win7, Win8 or Win10.

Having said that, Microsoft will want to see Win10 deployments going foreward, and Win10 will certainly be an easier sell for Enterprise rollouts than Win8 was. They may be driven by hardware refresh cycles as much as anything, but I expect that Windows 10 will outnumber Win8 in the Enterprise in no time flat - the key question is what will happen then. Win7 has 5 years left, and the companies who left it to the last 6 months before XP expired before they did a Win7 delpoyment, will probably still be running Win7 in 5 years time, but I think a lot of better managed companies wll be looking at what else they can leverage from Win10 if/when they're doing a hardware refresh in the next 2 years.

Enterprises don't roll out new OS's based on anything other than 3 factors:
1. Can we *easily* ensure compatibility with our existing applications? (And the average multinational has acres of custom software which was an expensive project to start with, and isn't going to be replaced just to suit Microsoft).
2. Does it solve a serious system problem we have today, like security or stability?
3. How much training will our employees need?

Hardware has nothing to do with it. Literally nothing.

Bayberry

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Enterprises don't roll out new OS's based on anything other than 3 factors:
1. Can we *easily* ensure compatibility with our existing applications? (And the average multinational has acres of custom software which was an expensive project to start with, and isn't going to be replaced just to suit Microsoft).
2. Does it solve a serious system problem we have today, like security or stability?
3. How much training will our employees need?

Hardware has nothing to do with it. Literally nothing.

It's a factor where a company is still of a size where a company-wide refresh is still feasible. That's not as common as it was 10 years ago, but there are still some reasonable sized companies (by Irish standards anyway) where that happens. Where rolling refreshes are the norm, Win10 LTS will be under deep scrutiny already, examining exactly the areas you've outlined.

ED E

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Hardware has nothing to do with it. Literally nothing.

Not quite. Hardware doesn't cause the OS change, but most commonly a new OS is deployed on new units, not existing workstations so the hardware cycle affects when organizations start transitioning.

Most organizations won't see a hardware replacement requirement for another 2yrs + would be my guess, middle of the road first gen i3s with 4GB to play with is just fine for anything outside very specific domains(dev, creative). Even if W10 proves itself as something enterprise sysadmins want, we wont see it until the new hardware starts flowing.

CatInABox

New build out, 10166, with more polish and bug fixes.

_Kaiser_

I've actually gone back to 8.1 for the moment. Add in Start8 and it basically becomes 7 with a performance boost and none of the "Modern" bits (unless you want them).

10 runs pretty solidly now but its mismatch of UI, the changes to OneDrive, and some other quirks/choices just leave me with the niggling feeling that it's just not as good as what its replacing. I think I'll give it a few months, see how they further refine it, wait to see what the 3rd parties like Stardock make of it, and see where it is then.

take everything

Lads how do i get this on my Surface Pro 3. I've looked for the windows icon on the bottom right but it's not there on my machine at all.

Any ideas.
Thanks.

CatInABox

take everything wrote: »

Lads how do i get this on my Surface Pro 3. I've looked for the windows icon on the bottom right but it's not there on my machine at all.

Any ideas.
Thanks.

Make sure that you have installed all the currently available Windows Updates first of all.

EDIT: Here's more help. Please note that it's not actually out until the 29th, and then it's free to upgrade for a year, so you've got time.

If you don’t see the Get Windows 10 app (the small Windows icon in your system tray), it might be because:

Your device isn’t up-to-date with at least Windows 7 SP1 or Windows 8.1 Update

Windows Update is turned off or is not set to received updates automatically

You’ve blocked or uninstalled the necessary Windows Update functionality.

Your device is not running genuine Windows

Your device is running Windows 7 Enterprise, Windows 8/8.1 Enterprise, or Windows RT/RT 8.1, which are excluded from this reservation offer.

Your device is managed as part of a school or business network. (Check with your IT administrator.)

PCs that we determine cannot run Windows 10 will not see the Get Windows 10 app before July 29th. After July 29th, we’ll enable the icon in the system tray. This is to help ensure that you can easily check your PC’s compatibility if you choose.

Running Windows Update and installing any available updates will fix the first 3 issues.

If you don’t think any of these conditions apply to you, and you’re still not seeing the icon, you can also try running the solution below, which will verify your device meets all the prerequisites and then turn on the Get Windows 10 app:

Open Notepad
Copy the following text and paste it into Notepad:

REG QUERY "HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\AppCompatFlags\UpgradeExperienceIndicators" /v UpgEx | findstr UpgEx

if "%errorlevel%" == "0" GOTO RunGWX

reg add "HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\AppCompatFlags\Appraiser" /v UtcOnetimeSend /t REG_DWORD /d 1 /f

schtasks /run /TN "\Microsoft\Windows\Application Experience\Microsoft Compatibility Appraiser"

:CompatCheckRunning

schtasks /query /TN "\Microsoft\Windows\Application Experience\Microsoft Compatibility Appraiser"

schtasks /query /TN "\Microsoft\Windows\Application Experience\Microsoft Compatibility Appraiser" | findstr Ready

if NOT "%errorlevel%" == "0" ping localhost >nul &goto :CompatCheckRunning

:RunGWX

schtasks /run /TN "\Microsoft\Windows\Setup\gwx\refreshgwxconfig"


Click File, and then Save As

In the File name box, change the file name to ReserveWin10.cmd

Then click the dropdown next to Save as type, and select All files (*.*)

Select the folder you would like to save the file to. For this example, let’s choose to save the file to the C:/Temp folder. Then click Save.

Open an elevated command prompt. (From the Start screen or Start menu, type Command Prompt in the search box, and then in the list of results, right-click Command Prompt, and selectRun as administrator.)

Finally, run the file from the location you saved to in Step 6. In this example, you would type the following in the Command Prompt window and hit Enter:

C:/Temp/ReserveWin10.cmd

The Microsoft Compatibility Appraiser can take 10 – 30 minutes to run, during which the script will continuously provide status reports that it is running. Please be patient.

If the script is failing in an infinite loop, then you don’t have the necessary prerequisite Windows Updates. Besides requiring Windows 7 SP1 or Windows 8.1 Update, you must also have installed:

For Windows 7 SP1:

KB3035583

KB2952664

For Windows 8.1 Update:

KB3035583

KB2976978

take everything

Great stuff. I'll give it a try.
Many thanks.

ED E

RTM baby!

According to The Verge’s Tom Warren, Windows 10 is done, having reached RTM status with build number 10240.

unkel

Microsoft hasn't confirmed this. Still has the watermark (10240) on the desktop, but now says "Test Mode". It did say th1 before the update was installing (TH = threshold, the codename for Windows 10) instead of fbl_impressive for all previous versions

But, but, but........

There no longer is any expiry date :cool:

CatInABox

unkel wrote: »

Microsoft hasn't confirmed this. Still has the watermark (10240) on the desktop, but now says "Test Mode". It did say th1 before the update was installing (TH = threshold, the codename for Windows 10) instead of fbl_impressive for all previous versions

But, but, but........

There no longer is any expiry date :cool:

Yeah, looks like an RTM version to me, which is good!
Of course, this just happens to be the build that decides it wants to mess around with the partitions on my drive, thus wiping 1 and a half gigs of data. Major stress, not sure how to fix it now.

SMJSF

I'll be sticking to 7 as long as I can. I know how to use it, it does what it's supposed to do, and didn't or doesn't need to change imo.

But I do miss office 2003. I grew up learning on that, and can't fully figure out v13/14(?).
If I could go back to XP, that'd be better!

ED E

Booted my VM back up today, got "TH1 Professional 10240" downloading now.

Might almost be worth putting directly on hardware now.

NegativeOne

So is this latest build polished enough for release do people think. Been updating mine for a while and on 10166 at the moment but all build seem to struggle with music playback as in it kept stuttering occasionally.

Slutmonkey57b

I'm increasingly seeing the Windows Update changes as a metaphor for Win 10 as a whole.

When you see the list of updates (assuming you can tell which is which, as there's no meaningful UI separation to indicate the individual updates, or indication of their source, function or size), there is a "details" button (actually just a string of text, but that's the paradigm they're into....). When you click that button you actually see LESS detail than you did on the previous screen; the download indicator disappears, and you only see the name of one update instead of all of them. Someone had to decide to design that screen in that fashion, someone else had to approve it, and someone else no doubt is in charge of ignoring whoever points out that the screen is functionally useless, and not in any way an improvement. "More detail" in Win 10 actually means "less detail". I can't think of any other professional software (much less OS) where such a blatantly ridiculous contradiction has been put into place.

All they had to do to Windows Update was to replace the generic "this is an update for stability and security for a Microsoft product" with the actual intro from the relevant KB article. That's all. It would have been perfect. Instead they've redesigned the whole thing, made it significantly worse, and all without anyone asking them to. Win10 in a nutshell: changing what isn't broken, making life harder for users, and wasting space and time for no benefit.

CatInABox

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I'm increasingly seeing the Windows Update changes as a metaphor for Win 10 as a whole.

When you see the list of updates (assuming you can tell which is which, as there's no meaningful UI separation to indicate the individual updates, or indication of their source, function or size), there is a "details" button (actually just a string of text, but that's the paradigm they're into....). When you click that button you actually see LESS detail than you did on the previous screen; the download indicator disappears, and you only see the name of one update instead of all of them. Someone had to decide to design that screen in that fashion, someone else had to approve it, and someone else no doubt is in charge of ignoring whoever points out that the screen is functionally useless, and not in any way an improvement. "More detail" in Win 10 actually means "less detail". I can't think of any other professional software (much less OS) where such a blatantly ridiculous contradiction has been put into place.

All they had to do to Windows Update was to replace the generic "this is an update for stability and security for a Microsoft product" with the actual intro from the relevant KB article. That's all. It would have been perfect. Instead they've redesigned the whole thing, made it significantly worse, and all without anyone asking them to. Win10 in a nutshell: changing what isn't broken, making life harder for users, and wasting space and time for no benefit.

Have to admit, the windows update changes are.... Sub-optimal, to say the least.

I am, however, delighted that Win10 home will now have forced auto-updates. I know that some peoples noses will be out of joint because they now can't turn down specific updates, but my life will be immeasurably better for this change.

The amount of times I've had to help a friend who says "Oh, my computer is running slow, I think it might have a virus", followed up by "Oh, the update thingy was annoying me so I turned it off" is unbelievable. I've taken to putting "Patch My PC" onto their machines to keep everything up to date, not just windows.

ED E

CatInABox wrote: »

Have to admit, the windows update changes are.... Sub-optimal, to say the least.

I am, however, delighted that Win10 home will now have forced auto-updates. I know that some peoples noses will be out of joint because they now can't turn down specific updates, but my life will be immeasurably better for this change.

The amount of times I've had to help a friend who says "Oh, my computer is running slow, I think it might have a virus", followed up by "Oh, the update thingy was annoying me so I turned it off" is unbelievable. I've taken to putting "Patch My PC" onto their machines to keep everything up to date, not just windows.

All kinds of level 1 support will love it.

Problem is users love to force down machines during auto-update sequences in 8.1 if it takes anything more than 60 seconds.....we should just kill off all the users :pac:

Slutmonkey57b

CatInABox wrote: »

Have to admit, the windows update changes are.... Sub-optimal, to say the least.

I am, however, delighted that Win10 home will now have forced auto-updates. I know that some peoples noses will be out of joint because they now can't turn down specific updates, but my life will be immeasurably better for this change.

The amount of times I've had to help a friend who says "Oh, my computer is running slow, I think it might have a virus", followed up by "Oh, the update thingy was annoying me so I turned it off" is unbelievable. I've taken to putting "Patch My PC" onto their machines to keep everything up to date, not just windows.

A good point, but I'm wary of some of their assumptions. What about people on metered or limited connections? Constantly updating "Windows as a service"could become a financial black hole, particularly since they decided we don't need to know how big the downloads are anymore. Yes there's an option for metered connection monitoring but how many of the people you're describing would know about it, or be relied upon to set it up? And if you set it up for them, how long before they turn it off because "it kept stopping me watching YouTube"? Damned if you do, damned if you don't I know...

If there's something else they could or should have worked on, it's download and install performance. Downloading an update compared to pulling it over the web is embarrassingly slow, and installing is equally painful, woefully slow and plagued with mysterious "installation failed"errors. And once again that's a holdover of the Vista disaster, the xp system was faster, easier and more reliable.

CatInABox

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

A good point, but I'm wary of some of their assumptions. What about people on metered or limited connections? Constantly updating "Windows as a service"could become a financial black hole, particularly since they decided we don't need to know how big the downloads are anymore. Yes there's an option for metered connection monitoring but how many of the people you're describing would know about it, or be relied upon to set it up? And if you set it up for them, how long before they turn it off because "it kept stopping me watching YouTube"? Damned if you do, damned if you don't I know...

If there's something else they could or should have worked on, it's download and install performance. Downloading an update compared to pulling it over the web is embarrassingly slow, and installing is equally painful, woefully slow and plagued with mysterious "installation failed"errors. And once again that's a holdover of the Vista disaster, the xp system was faster, easier and more reliable.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying on the limited connections front, but you'd be surprised at how fast people can change their habits when it starts hitting them where it hurts, their pocket.

Not saying this is ideal by a long shot, but I'd say it'll benefit the 95% more than it'll harm the 5%, if you get me.

Yeah, the download speeds can be a bit tedious, particularly when I'm working on someone else's computer. I always try to bring it back to mine to fix them up now, some people think a 1Mb connection is broadband.

obezyana

Im getting another problem with it activating and i cant seem to find a product key on Microsofts website, im on the latest build. Strange one. It says im running Win 10 Pro.

Hoagy

obezyana wrote: »

Im getting another problem with it activating and i cant seem to find a product key on Microsofts website, im on the latest build. Strange one. It says im running Win 10 Pro.

There's a product key here.

obezyana

Hoagy wrote: »

There's a product key here.

That key didnt work as its already the one that was there when i updated to the latest build.