Irish Water application pack

kleefarr

It's when I read things like this I wish I hadn't..

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/taxpayer-pumps-out-55000-for-a-gym-at-irish-water-30337275.html

Grrrr.

V.W.L 11

Judging by the poll so far a repeat of 1996 ain't on the cards,must be the fluoride drugging people:rolleyes:

SusieBlue

Water charges are something I've been earnestly researching the last weeks and having weighed up all the information, I will not be paying. I have several reasons after doing lots of reading, if anyone is interested.

1. We already pay for water through our current taxes. I refuse to pay twice.

2. Full control of the water system hasn't been given to Irish Water. If you read the Water Services Act 2013 it states that it has extended control of our water system to Irish Water. Note the use of the word extended and not replaced. Therefore if no consent is given, we will continue receiving water the way we currently do. Also note that the Water Services Act 2007/2013 states that neither Irish Water nor the government system we currently use have the power to either temporarily or permanently restrict or cut off our water. It is illegal for them to do so. So they cannot restrict/cut off your water if you decide not to pay.

3. Legally, there is no law that states one MUST sign up to Irish Water. The government are simply recommending that Irish citizens apply to become Irish Water customers. Emphasis on the word APPLY.

4. Irish Water are a privately owned company and our government CANNOT force us to enter into a contract with a private business against our will. And yes, it IS a privately owned company despite what they would like us to believe, their registered trading no. is 530363. It goes against our Constitution, Irish Consumer Law, and ultimately, laws set by the European Union.

5. They simply cannot penalise a citizen for not paying the charges. To do so they would have to take you to court, and then prove that the customer breached the contract. However, if there is no consent and no contract has been signed, they have absolutely no proof and cannot enforce the contract. They have absolutely no legal standing in this case because they are a private company - In order to claim unpaid charges from us, either via wages, social welfare, or savings account, they would have to prove you are their customer. If you do not sign they have no proof. You have the law on your side.

6. People keep likening this charge to the Property Tax. The property tax was enforced by the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, which is a government body and would already have full access to info such as addresses, PPS numbers, etc. Irish Water are a privately owned company who do not have access to this info unless you give it to them! Therefore they cannot find another way to take this money from you unless you give them consent, ie. the Office of the Revenue Commissioners managed to get it from people by withholding their children's college grants until the tax was paid (just one example). Irish Water does not have access to this kind of information or the power to take your money without your consent.

7. In the ad on the television, they use words such as "invite" and "application". These are not legally binding words and gives the impression of choice. If you do not accept their invitation and apply to be their customer, what can they do? It is not legal, and they cannot sue you because to do so they would have to prove a contract was in place.

Those are just my two cents on the matter after extensive research, apologies for the rambling and repetitiveness but if you do not consent they cannot touch you.

Everyone should make their own decision but I implore everyone to do their own research before making up their mind.

I will not be paying, I will not give my consent, or enter into a contract with them and I will not give them any of my personal information if they ask for it. There is a lot of misinformation out there at the moment and even more scaremongering but at the end of the day it comes down to the fact that we cannot be forced into a contract against our will and without said contract being in place, they cannot penalise us in accordance to the Irish Water Act (2007/2013).

ABajaninCork

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Water charges are something I've been earnestly researching the last weeks and having weighed up all the information, I will not be paying. I have several reasons after doing lots of reading, if anyone is interested.

1. We already pay for water through our current taxes. I refuse to pay twice.

If that were the case, then please explain why the water infrastructure has been so badly neglected with little or no investment by successive governments? Large parts of the country having to boil their water before be able to use it? In any case, as stated earlier on this thread as well as elsewhere, raising of a water rate/tax as well as a property tax was a condition of the bailout. No property tax/water rate - No bailout!! Did you miss that bit?

WhiteRoses wrote: »

2. Full control of the water system hasn't been given to Irish Water. If you read the Water Services Act 2013 it states that it has extended control of our water system to Irish Water. Note the use of the word extended and not replaced. Therefore if no consent is given, we will continue receiving water the way we currently do. Also note that the Water Services Act 2007/2013 states that neither Irish Water nor the government system we currently use have the power to either temporarily or permanently restrict or cut off our water. It is illegal for them to do so. So they cannot restrict/cut off your water if you decide not to pay.

Whilst it's true you cannot be cut off, IW can restrict your supply to a trickle.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

3. Legally, there is no law that states one MUST sign up to Irish Water. The government are simply recommending that Irish citizens apply to become Irish Water customers. Emphasis on the word APPLY.

4. Irish Water are a privately owned company and our government CANNOT force us to enter into a contract with a private business against our will. And yes, it IS a privately owned company despite what they would like us to believe, their registered trading no. is 530363. It goes against our Constitution, Irish Consumer Law, and ultimately, laws set by the European Union.

If you want to avail of the allowances, then you can apply. You're right that you cannot be forced to do so.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

5. They simply cannot penalise a citizen for not paying the charges. To do so they would have to take you to court, and then prove that the customer breached the contract. However, if there is no consent and no contract has been signed, they have absolutely no proof and cannot enforce the contract. They have absolutely no legal standing in this case because they are a private company - In order to claim unpaid charges from us, either via wages, social welfare, or savings account, they would have to prove you are their customer. If you do not sign they have no proof. You have the law on your side.

I'd imagine proof that you're using the public sewage system is pretty easy to get in a lot of cases. If they were minded to do so, all IW would have to do is a 'drive by' to see if you have a septic tank/well. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong though.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

6. People keep likening this charge to the Property Tax. The property tax was enforced by the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, which is a government body and would already have full access to info such as addresses, PPS numbers, etc. Irish Water are a privately owned company who do not have access to this info unless you give it to them! Therefore they cannot find another way to take this money from you unless you give them consent, ie. the Office of the Revenue Commissioners managed to get it from people by withholding their children's college grants until the tax was paid (just one example). Irish Water does not have access to this kind of information or the power to take your money without your consent.

You're right. Personally, I don't view this as a tax. As far as I'm concerned this is a utility bill in the same way as I view the gas/electric/telephone/bins. As you've already stated, you don't HAVE to apply to IW. But if you want to avail of the allowances, then you need to give the PPSN as prescribed or you pay more. Did you see the IW adverts in the papers yesterday? It gives the amounts you'll be paying with and without the allowances. I personally don't see the point, but hey ho! I don't really want to pay more for our water than we have to.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

7. In the ad on the television, they use words such as "invite" and "application". These are not legally binding words and gives the impression of choice. If you do not accept their invitation and apply to be their customer, what can they do? It is not legal, and they cannot sue you because to do so they would have to prove a contract was in place.

Those are just my two cents on the matter after extensive research, apologies for the rambling and repetitiveness but if you do not consent they cannot touch you.

Everyone should make their own decision but I implore everyone to do their own research before making up their mind.

I will not be paying, I will not give my consent, or enter into a contract with them and I will not give them any of my personal information if they ask for it. There is a lot of misinformation out there at the moment and even more scaremongering but at the end of the day it comes down to the fact that we cannot be forced into a contract against our will and without said contract being in place, they cannot penalise us in accordance to the Irish Water Act (2007/2013).

Fair enough.

monkeynuz

.red. wrote: »

I had good quality water coming into my house. The pipes were bad tho and we were constantly being cut off cos of leaks. We were off something like 29times in 18months. Anything from a few hours to a few days.
They recently changed our source and we now have a better supply but the water is very hard. We need to descale the kettle every 2/3 days and i can only imagine the damage its doing to the washing machine and dishwasher. They now want me to pay for my water even tho its damaging my household appliances.
I know i can buy tablets to put into them but i shouldnt have to as it could cost a few hundred euro more per year over people in a similar household without hard water.

In the uk, if you have hard water it's up to you to descale the kettle etc. we are on a private well but I wouldn't have a problem paying if we were on a public supply.

And yes I phoned and told them that we are not a customer.

.red.

monkeynuz wrote: »

In the uk, if you have hard water it's up to you to descale the kettle etc. we are on a private well but I wouldn't have a problem paying if we were on a public supply.

And yes I phoned and told them that we are not a customer.

I dont live in the uk so i dont really care what goes on there.
My point is why should i or other people in very hard water areas have the same bills as everyone else.
I have a few choices.
Get a water softener fitted at about €4/500 and have annual maintanence.
Replace my aplliances every couple of years which will work out about €500 a year
Buy descalers and water softeners for my appliances which is also expensive but a little cheaper than the other options.
The government shoumd have a grant for houses in hard water areas to get softeners fitted.
if i buy petrol from a garage that is dirty then the garage is liable for repairs to my engine. How is irish water different.

monkeynuz

I wasn't expecting you to care, I was merely saying that you aren't the only one to experience hard water. Just get over it, other people have to.

evilivor

WhiteRoses wrote: »

4. Irish Water are a privately owned company and our government CANNOT force us to enter into a contract with a private business against our will. And yes, it IS a privately owned company despite what they would like us to believe, their registered trading no. is 530363. It goes against our Constitution, Irish Consumer Law, and ultimately, laws set by the European Union.

It is a privately owned company - privately owned by the State for us - if it were a public company its shares could be traded on the stock exchange and the state wouldn't own it.

Irish Water is a statutory corporation with three share holders, the Minister for Environment, the Minister for Finance and and the Board of Ervia, formerly known as Bord Gais, also a 100% state owned commercial semi-state company.

evilivor

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Water charges are something I've been earnestly researching the last weeks and having weighed up all the information, I will not be paying. I have several reasons after doing lots of reading, if anyone is interested.

1. We already pay for water through our current taxes. I refuse to pay twice.

2. Full control of the water system hasn't been given to Irish Water. If you read the Water Services Act 2013 it states that it has extended control of our water system to Irish Water. Note the use of the word extended and not replaced. Therefore if no consent is given, we will continue receiving water the way we currently do. Also note that the Water Services Act 2007/2013 states that neither Irish Water nor the government system we currently use have the power to either temporarily or permanently restrict or cut off our water. It is illegal for them to do so. So they cannot restrict/cut off your water if you decide not to pay.

3. Legally, there is no law that states one MUST sign up to Irish Water. The government are simply recommending that Irish citizens apply to become Irish Water customers. Emphasis on the word APPLY.

As for the issue of a contract, Broadsheet covered it recently in a discussion with their in house legal poster.

Legal Coffee Drinker: “The authority to charge users of water for water charges comes from Part 3 of the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 , in particular Section 21, which says Irish Water “shall charge each customer for the provision of its water services in accordance with the approved water charge plan.”

Broadsheet: “Some readers have suggested that there can be no legal charge in the absence of a contract between the user and Irish Water?”

LCD: “Not the case. The entitlement to charge derives from the Act and is not dependent on the presence of a contract. If Section 21 did not exist, a contract would of course be needed – but this is not the case.”

Broadsheet: “Doesn’t the word ‘customer’ in Section 21 imply a contract must exist?”

LCD: “No, because Section 2 of the same Act defines customer – somewhat sneakily – as “the occupier of the premises in respect of which the water supply is provided.” Occupation and provision of services, on its own, gives rise to liability for water charges.”

Broadsheet: “Even though it’s not enough to imply a contract?”

LCD: “Yes. Acts of the Oireachtas – like this one – can impose liability for charges even where no contract exists.”


As for the PPS number issue – if you don’t want to give your PPS number to Irish Water then you don’t have to – there is no legal imperative to give it.

However, if you want to avail of the “Free” allowance you will have to provide a PPS number as the Government , who are paying for the allowance, want proof that the allowance is going to real perople and is not being ripped off. If you don’t want the allowance, don’t give them your number.

It’s funny how people seem to have such an objection giving their PPS number to Irish Water to get something for free yet hand it over to private companies like Laya or Aviva Health in a purely commercial transaction.

mikeym

Irish water are keeping their charges a secret from elderly and from people that dont have internet access or are not internet savvy.

The only way to see the charges is to go online because you cant trust the media.

This is creating a lot of confusion in the elderly community.

whisky_galore

ABajaninCork wrote: »

If that were the case, then please explain why the water infrastructure has been so badly neglected with little or no investment by successive governments?

Maybe because all taxes were fired into the one pot to be wasted elsewhere by the usual suspects and the water services were low in priority and last in line to get anything? Not to mention the usual 'shur it'll be grand' attitude that's endemic here, if water mains aren't actually p*ssing water all over the street, sure there's no problem, right?

IW and the way they're running things don't really inspire confidence. A brand new exercise in money wastage. Interesting that recently one of the lads that had a role in setting up IW is washing his hands of the affair, pardon the pun.

evilivor

mikeym wrote: »

Irish water are keeping their charges a secret from elderly and from people that dont have internet access or are not internet savvy.

Yes, running adverts in every local and national paper is a terrific way of keeping their charges a secret.

mikeym

evilivor wrote: »

Yes, running adverts in every local and national paper is a terrific way of keeping their charges a secret.

I dont buy newspapers there a waste of money.

And I doubt many poor people can afford newspapers.

Why dont they post out information on their charges they wont because they only care about making money.

ABajaninCork

mikeym wrote: »

I dont buy newspapers there a waste of money.

And I doubt many poor people can afford newspapers.

Why dont they post out information on their charges they wont because they only care about making money.

Don't be ridiculous! If people can't afford a newspaper (which I seriously doubt), then you can always pop to the library and read them there for free. Or borrow someone's if you can't get there...

Many people have Android phones/tablets which are capable of accessing the internet. I have one, but don't have a data package as there are so many hotspots where you can surf for free if you can't wait until you get home. Guess what? You can read newspapers for free on the internet. You can also search for Irish Water (www.water.ie if you can't be arsed) and read what they have to say. For free, if you're smart...:rolleyes:

Oh - and BTW? IW ARE a business. Of course they want to make money! We have the Troika to pay back - remember?

Colibri

mikeym wrote: »

I dont buy newspapers there a waste of money.

And I doubt many poor people can afford newspapers.

Why dont they post out information on their charges they wont because they only care about making money.

Just because you don't buy newspapers doesn't mean the elderly don't.

I can't see how newspapers are off limits to elderly and poor - they're not luxury items. Elderly people aren't all poor either.

Fair enough about them not posting the information, but the information isn't exactly hard to find.

j8wk2feszrnpao

monkeynuz wrote: »

I wasn't expecting you to care, I was merely saying that you aren't the only one to experience hard water. Just get over it, other people have to.

And people wonder why politicians can get away with their BS.
If someone is paying for a service, then getting over poor service should not be accepted.


I have no problem with paying for water.
I'd prefer the new system of having Irish Water where it's setup like electricity/gas/phone bill-paying utilities, rather than funded centrally (and as we've seen with the history of water supply in many areas, it's been a mess).

A proper body that manages the water supply for the country, is accountable to the people that pay for their water supply, and isn't another state backed company that is solely self serving; is a good thing for the people of the country.

However, the wastage that we've already seen with the setup of IW and the continued mess of costs, high wages, lack of clear information, possible data harvesting.........; all means that I have no faith in those running IW to do a job that in the best interests of the Irish citizens.

mikeym

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Oh - and BTW? IW ARE a business. Of course they want to make money! We have the Troika to pay back - remember?

So basically we rob Peter to pay Paul.

ABajaninCork

mikeym wrote: »

So basically we rob Peter to pay Paul.

It was ever thus...

54kroc

mikeym wrote: »

So basically we rob Peter to pay Paul.

That's pretty much how it all works.

monkeynuz

munstermagic11 wrote: »

And people wonder why politicians can get away with their BS.
If someone is paying for a service, then getting over poor service should not be accepted.


I have no problem with paying for water.
I'd prefer the new system of having Irish Water where it's setup like electricity/gas/phone bill-paying utilities, rather than funded centrally (and as we've seen with the history of water supply in many areas, it's been a mess).

A proper body that manages the water supply for the country, is accountable to the people that pay for their water supply, and isn't another state backed company that is solely self serving; is a good thing for the people of the country.

However, the wastage that we've already seen with the setup of IW and the continued mess of costs, high wages, lack of clear information, possible data harvesting.........; all means that I have no faith in those running IW to do a job that in the best interests of the Irish citizens.

Hard water is hard water and likewise for soft, as long as the water is clean then the utility company have done their bit, but to expect them to soften it for you as well!!

j8wk2feszrnpao

monkeynuz wrote: »

Hard water is hard water and likewise for soft, as long as the water is clean then the utility company have done their bit, but to expect them to soften it for you as well!!

When people are now paying directly for their water, then yes; not sure why it's difficult for you to understand the expectation for high standards when you are paying for something.
Better to allocate €50m to that process that paying for consultants.

monkeynuz

I understand your expectation perfectly I'm not stupid.

What I don't agree with is your desire for softened water. Clean water is all you need.

I also made the point that plenty of places in the world have hard water and yet they still have to pay for it, that's why there is a massive trade in home water softeners, I don't feel it is acceptable to expect the state to soften the water for you.

j8wk2feszrnpao

monkeynuz wrote: »

I understand your expectation perfectly I'm not stupid.

What I don't agree with is your desire for softened water. Clean water is all you need.

I also made the point that plenty of places in the world have hard water and yet they still have to pay for it, that's why there is a massive trade in home water softeners, I don't feel it is acceptable to expect the state to soften the water for you.

It doesn't affect me, thankfully.

I just expect a better quality of service when you have to directly pay for it.
Perhaps less of the 'get over it attitude' might make a difference for the citizens of the state.

I'd prefer to see water being softened for people rather than:

• IW spending a huge amount of state money on consultants
• IW paying excessive wages (in tough economic times for the state)
• IW wanting to pay bonuses to staff
• IW uses tax payers money to open a gym

It's been pointed out time and time again (even by those who hype up the need for IW) that we have a substandard system in place; yet there is money to pay for the above.
With a 'get over it attitude', that's unlikely to change.

54kroc

munstermagic11 wrote: »

When people are now paying directly for their water, then yes; not sure why it's difficult for you to understand the expectation for high standards when you are paying for something.
Better to allocate €50m to that process that paying for consultants.

Are there many countries that supply pre softened water to peoples homes?

j8wk2feszrnpao

54kroc wrote: »

Are there many countries that supply pre softened water to peoples homes?

Don't know. That's their concern.
I live and pay taxes in Ireland.

.red.

I dont need pre softened wated.
There was 2 options to fix our water. Fix the pipes that were leaking, or do a cheaper job of connecting us to a different pipe. They took the cheaper option.
If they fixed the pipes that were supplying my water upto 6/8 weeks ago then my water would be fine. Instead they spent a few bob connecting a pipe to another supply that has very hard water.
We dont know but are assuming that our old supply is still cracked all along the pipe and leaking good quality water. That is whats so frustrating. We are paying for water that can on bad days look like milk, when good quality water is being pissed away elsewhere from cracks.

monkeynuz

You sat milky colour, does the water clear after a few minutes if left in a glass?

.red.

monkeynuz wrote: »

You sat milky colour, does the water clear after a few minutes if left in a glass?

Yes it does but i still wouldnt be using it fo mixing up formula for a baby.

V.W.L 11

1 in 4 on this thread have filled out their forms dear god they must like double taxation

monkeynuz

The milky appearance is probably just air getting into the system, I have seen it a lot over the years, nothing to worry about.