Prime Time on state of Dublin City Center tomorrow night

FreudianSlippers

drumswan wrote: »

There is a strip in the north inner city which needs better policing, everyone agrees. Its a pain in the arse for people who have to live there and work there every day.

Your hysterical sky-is-falling nonsense is just laughable though. Ill be attending the Web Summit with our partners from the UK & Europe, they are all staying in plush hotels in Dublin 4 and we have a dinner booked in Guilbauds on the 5th. Hanging around with junkies is not high on the agenda.


Sigh. Ive consistently shown you that the city is on an upward spiral, both visitor numbers and investment are RISING year on year. You just dont want to hear it because you are afraid of people in tracksuits.

I think this is exactly the problem: basically isolating the Northside as a lost cause ****hole where nobody should go.

Having eaten, btw, in Guilbaud's on multiple occasions; I think Chapter One is a better restaurant. How does this fit in with your concept of keeping everyone away from the Northside?

drumswan

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I think this is exactly the problem: basically isolating the Northside as a lost cause ****hole where nobody should go.

Having eaten, btw, in Guilbaud's on multiple occasions; I think Chapter One is a better restaurant. How does this fit in with your concept of keeping everyone away from the Northside?

Good point, Chapter one is awesome. I guess we'd need one of those bulletproof transport carriers to go though. Or we could assume that a group of grown men from Birmingham and Barcelona might be alright, its not a group of the mentally infirm that are coming over.

Planning on the north city has been notoriously poor. If there wasnt a single vagrant in the city I still wouldnt frequent the area much, there isnt the same vibe as around the Baggot St/South William/Wexford St/Wicklow St/Georges St area.

FreudianSlippers

While I don't disagree that planning has been awful, it's not the full picture (and as I said earlier, I think planning has a lot to do with urban regeneration). Allowing certain areas to fester creates a bad atmosphere in an area, which results in less people frequenting, less businesses choosing to locate there, resulting in more festering.

Take Lower Liffey Street - there are a few good restaurants and bars there, which are suffering because their clientèle are harassed if they sit outside on a nice day by junkies, beggars and thieves. If people don't want to be harassed when they sit outside, they will just go to the Southside as you say - but that means that the businesses on the Northside suffer lost trade and will eventually close if it continues.

We should be promoting a better atmosphere in these Northside areas and promoting new businesses to open at any cost. Smithfield is a prime example of a missed opportunity and hopefully DIT will inject some life into the area. OCS should be a bustling tourist destination with museums, shops, restaurants and events; not a place to be avoided. The only way to do that is to tackle the area head-on.

Amalgam

Aard wrote: »

A little bit of sensationalism here -- Dublin is not like Detroit or Johannesburg during their bad days.

Agreed, but the, 'snatch and grab' tawdriness of the early afternoon around the Liffey is very corrosive to the mood of the city.

The river has a natural tide and a human one..

I feel ashamed to admit it, but seeing people getting dipped or having their bags, 'casually' snatched around the Quays and Temple Bar.. (all south side) doesn't even get a flinch out of me anymore.

I don't get involved either, the people doing the snatching have a higher chance of passing on some form of Hepatitis, which I'm not really keen to acquire.

I do occasionally mention to a tourist floating aound Dame Street/Christchurch to keep their photographic equipment, off the hip.. and have it facing to the front. Some look at you like you've sprouted horns.

We need to give realistic advice to tourists visiting the city and stop the Jolly Leprechaun tat.

drumswan

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

While I don't disagree that planning has been awful, it's not the full picture (and as I said earlier, I think planning has a lot to do with urban regeneration). Allowing certain areas to fester creates a bad atmosphere in an area, which results in less people frequenting, less businesses choosing to locate there, resulting in more festering.

Take Lower Liffey Street - there are a few good restaurants and bars there, which are suffering because their clientèle are harassed if they sit outside on a nice day by junkies, beggars and thieves. If people don't want to be harassed when they sit outside, they will just go to the Southside as you say - but that means that the businesses on the Northside suffer lost trade and will eventually close if it continues.

We should be promoting a better atmosphere in these Northside areas and promoting new businesses to open at any cost. Smithfield is a prime example of a missed opportunity and hopefully DIT will inject some life into the area. OCS should be a bustling tourist destination with museums, shops, restaurants and events; not a place to be avoided. The only way to do that is to tackle the area head-on.

Cant disagree with any of that, intelligent sensible suggestions without the hysteria. There are problems in the north city centre, no doubt. But there is much more to Dublin than those few streets.

Policing is very poor. Though you cant criticism the police in this country, middle Ireland wont have it.

The apartments in Smithfield are built of paper, any might market etc would effectively sound like it was in your living room. More poor planning.

fleet_admiral

No doubt the program will be deeply anti north city like DCC are

rubberdiddies

I was always someone that sang the praises of Dublin to non-Irish people. Through a particular online venture that I run, I promoted Ireland and Dublin to thousands of people all over the world.

For the last few years however, if potential tourists ask me, I recommend that they stay away from Dublin City Centre if at all possible. I feel horrible for doing this as I love the city. I used to be in dublin City Centre every single day for years and years and could see it getting worse as the years went on.

I only now go in when I have to, last year for example I might have only been in the city 10 times.

I found myself in and around the O'Connell Street area on Saturday last at about 9am. Even at that hour of the morning when it was relatively quiet, I saw a fight between 2 guys that seemed to start off as a bit of a play fight that 5 year olds might have, but ended up in a full on savage boxing match to the horror of people around, the majority of whom were tourists. The two lads ended up finishing their fight and walking off calmly together after having the usual night-of-the-living-dead argument.

the majority of people I saw that morning were tourists, which is great, but when I was travelling back home around midday, the place was awash with addicts. And I mean everywhere. It was as if there was some form of convention going on, though I presumed at the time that the dealer(s) were close by.

My point is this goes on ALL the time. It's not normal, it's not safe. I used to feel safe in town. Not any more. Far from it. That's why I rarely go in any more. Many of my friends/family/colleagues feel the same.

It's the businesses that will ultimately suffer. The lack of Garda resources/action/give a sh1tability or whatever it is has a large part to play.

A few weeks ago a neighbour of mine had to call 999 for a major incident. 2 hours later they showed up.

Yet, I believe there were 40 Guards at a water meter protest in Dublin this morning.

Pete_Cavan

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

While I don't disagree that planning has been awful, it's not the full picture (and as I said earlier, I think planning has a lot to do with urban regeneration). Allowing certain areas to fester creates a bad atmosphere in an area, which results in less people frequenting, less businesses choosing to locate there, resulting in more festering.

Agree with this. IMO a lot of the problems we have today stem from bad planning practices in the past. We allowed rich areas and poor areas to develop and problems which exist to some extent in all areas became exaggerated beyond belief. The infamous blocks of flats were built which were a haven for anti-social behaviour and drugs, they spawned many of the problems we have today.

DCC are rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic by refurbishing and amalgamating the flats in old blocks for social housing. The folly of these flats is that there was no social mix and creates greater class divides and even ghettoisation but the refurb plans to nothing to improve this. Going forward, policy should be to develop the city centre with a proper social mix so that such problems are not concentrated in certain areas and the problems allowed to fester. Equally, concentrating prosperity creates different problems, Dun Laoghaire being a good example. We are in the midst of a housing crises and the lack of social housing is a big problem but no doubt the solution pursued will be simply build more housing, rather than pursue a proper housing policy.

Kermit.de.frog

rubberdiddies wrote: »

I was always someone that sang the praises of Dublin to non-Irish people. Through a particular online venture that I run, I promoted Ireland and Dublin to thousands of people all over the world.

For the last few years however, if potential tourists ask me, I recommend that they stay away from Dublin City Centre if at all possible. I feel horrible for doing this as I love the city. I used to be in dublin City Centre every single day for years and years and could see it getting worse as the years went on.

I only now go in when I have to, last year for example I might have only been in the city 10 times.

I found myself in and around the O'Connell Street area on Saturday last at about 9am. Even at that hour of the morning when it was relatively quiet, I saw a fight between 2 guys that seemed to start off as a bit of a play fight that 5 year olds might have, but ended up in a full on savage boxing match to the horror of people around, the majority of whom were tourists. The two lads ended up finishing their fight and walking off calmly together after having the usual night-of-the-living-dead argument.

the majority of people I saw that morning were tourists, which is great, but when I was travelling back home around midday, the place was awash with addicts. And I mean everywhere. It was as if there was some form of convention going on, though I presumed at the time that the dealer(s) were close by.

My point is this goes on ALL the time. It's not normal, it's not safe. I used to feel safe in town. Not any more. Far from it. That's why I rarely go in any more. Many of my friends/family/colleagues feel the same.

It's the businesses that will ultimately suffer. The lack of Garda resources/action/give a sh1tability or whatever it is has a large part to play.

A few weeks ago a neighbour of mine had to call 999 for a major incident. 2 hours later they showed up.

Yet, I believe there were 40 Guards at a water meter protest in Dublin this morning.

Some here think you are making it up and a delicate individual.

I hope they watch this program tonight and I hope it gets people talking and the powers that be to fix it.

desertcircus

Do I live in some parallel-universe Dublin? The city has problems, yes, but the violent crime rate is nothing special by European standards. Is there anything to this other than "there are people around who look like junkies"?

FreudianSlippers

desertcircus wrote: »

Do I live in some parallel-universe Dublin? The city has problems, yes, but the violent crime rate is nothing special by European standards. Is there anything to this other than "there are people around who look like junkies"?

I wouldn't believe someone who said they frequent North Dublin City Centre if they told me that they have never seen anti-social behaviour of some sort on a daily basis.

rubberdiddies

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Some here think you are making it up and a delicate individual.

I hope they watch this program tonight and I hope it gets people talking and the powers that be to fix it.

I'm far from delicate! lol
and certainly not making it up. It happens. I cant understand how some people either seem to think it doesn't happen or think that what happens is grand just because some European cities are worse.

drumswan

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I wouldn't believe someone who said they frequent North Dublin City Centre if they told me that they have never seen anti-social behaviour of some sort on a daily basis.

But it is not dangerous. It simply isnt. Its a nonsense to be advising people to avoid the entire city centre.

Peoples perceptions are another matter.

miamee

desertcircus wrote: »

Do I live in some parallel-universe Dublin? The city has problems, yes, but the violent crime rate is nothing special by European standards. Is there anything to this other than "there are people around who look like junkies"?

The fact that there is a violent crime rate is the issue.

As a born and bred Dubliner, I don't think it's good enough that 'other places are as bad, so it's grand'. Let other places do what they want, I would like my home city to be safe and hassle-free for visitors and locals alike.

ETA: I love Dublin, I have lived here my whole life and will for a long time to come I'm sure. There are no parts of the city centre that I wouldn't walk on my own, I don't feel terrorised or threatened but even the fact that I have to keep an eye out for signs of trouble, dodgy characters, whatever, is not ok. I don't think there is anything wrong with aspiring to a better capital city than we have right now.

FreudianSlippers

drumswan wrote: »

But it is not dangerous. It simply isnt. Its a nonsense to be advising people to avoid the entire city centre.

Peoples perceptions are another matter.

There are areas which are dangerous and times where non-dangerous areas become dangerous for even locals. It's fairly 'dangerous' for tourists in general. My argument is more along the lines that anti-social behaviour is causing a rapid decline of the Northside.

Pete_Cavan

desertcircus wrote: »

Do I live in some parallel-universe Dublin? The city has problems, yes, but the violent crime rate is nothing special by European standards. Is there anything to this other than "there are people around who look like junkies"?

Yes, one thing I would say about Dublin city centre is that the problems come from individuals and their person issues. I dont think violent or organised crime is a big issue in the city centre as with many other cities, although they do exist in certain suburbs.

GinnyR

look I might be out of touch here as I don't live in Dublin but as a very regular visitor (& hopefully soon new resident) I have to say I've never felt unsafe anywhere in town ever ... Even at night as a lone female. Dublin feels a hell of a lot safer to me than London or Birmingham does.

desertcircus

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I wouldn't believe someone who said they frequent North Dublin City Centre if they told me that they have never seen anti-social behaviour of some sort on a daily basis.

Until about three months ago, I walked from the IFSC to the Epicurean Foodhall three times a week for lunch. Never bothered, pickpocketed, attacked. Dublin simply isn't as dangerous as people think it is.

reprazant

While I don't think that Dublin in dangerous, there is a certain part that is pretty grimy really. From O'Connell St to Connelly St is pretty grim and somewhere I'd never really choose to walk around. Nothing have ever happened to me when I have but it is just depressing more than anything.

Saying that the clinics need to be moved to the suburbs is all well and good but I doubt that many of the people demanding that would want a clinic near where they live. When they say move them out of the city, what they mean is move them to places out of the city to areas I don't live in.

Einhard

Dublin, like any other city, does have its share of problems. Some areas of the city are quite grotty and rundown, others can have a hint of menace about them. Unlike many other large cities though, these areas in Dublin are very close to the city centre and are thus more readily apparent than elsewhere.

However, I don't believe that Dublin is "at tipping point" as the PT article stated, or that it's in a downward spiral. I live abroad but visit home fairly regularly and usually spend a few days in Dublin. I've also had foreign friends visit over the past few summers. I've never had a problem in the city, and neither had they. I didn't notice any particularly intimidating of threatening or even hassling behaviour, and I like to spend time wandering the central core of O' Connell St and Temple Bar when I'm back.

I think some of the reaction is based on snobbery, and a disdain for loud locals in tracksuits. I was in the ChristChurch area during the summer and a group of "howyas" walked by in tracksuits, covered in tattoos, and various other adornments. Having a laugh and making a bit of noise. But in no way threatening. Yet one of the people I was with threw her eyes to heaven and called them scumbags. I imagine she would agree wholeheartedly with the OP, when in reality the real problem was her own stereotypes and biases. And she wasn't even from Dublin!

Giruilla

Why are people saying the clinics should be 'moved'??

They've clearly been shown to be a failure.

They should be closed and those who persist in illegal drug abuse immediately thrown in prison.

alastair

reprazant wrote: »

While I don't think that Dublin in dangerous, there is a certain part that is pretty grimy really. From O'Connell St to Connelly St is pretty grim and somewhere I'd never really choose to walk around. Nothing have ever happened to me when I have but it is just depressing more than anything.

Saying that the clinics need to be moved to the suburbs is all well and good but I doubt that many of the people demanding that would want a clinic near where they live. When they say move them out of the city, what they mean is move them to places out of the city to areas I don't live in.

That's about the sum of it. There's much of Dublin that's kippy looking, but crime is pretty much where it was ten years ago, and lower than it was on the 80's, and the city, including tourism figures, seems to managed to grow over that time. More of the same may not be ideal, but there's not been any real crisis.

Dyr

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It really hits home when you think, for example, we have this huge tech conference in the RDS in November with the most important people from all over the world in that area attending. This is what they will see and experience when they go in to the city center.

Y'see this is the problem with this city. You have a percentage of the population who have no problem with the fact that we have a massive heroin problem in dublin, they just don't want the neighbors to see that we have a massive heroin problem. What would people say?

conorhal

miamee wrote: »

The fact that there is a violent crime rate is the issue.

As a born and bred Dubliner, I don't think it's good enough that 'other places are as bad, so it's grand'. Let other places do what they want, I would like my home city to be safe and hassle-free for visitors and locals alike.

ETA: I love Dublin, I have lived here my whole life and will for a long time to come I'm sure. There are no parts of the city centre that I wouldn't walk on my own, I don't feel terrorised or threatened but even the fact that I have to keep an eye out for signs of trouble, dodgy characters, whatever, is not ok. I don't think there is anything wrong with aspiring to a better capital city than we have right now.

It's frustrating. I've lived in the city centre for about 12yrs and I've seen a noticeable decline, though there tends to be peaks and troughs of anti-social behaviour, the trend is towards more.

I can't for the life of me understand those that come here to loudly dismiss the problem and I can't decide if it's a symptom of the typically Irish disease that declares everything’s 'grand' or they’re just part of the political inertia that exists when dealing with such issues and they figure that if doesn't really affect me directly, why bother changing anything.
Like yourself, I never feel particularly threatened walking through town, but it doesn’t take a general air of menace to put people off.
There are a couple of pubs on the street that I live on, one is popular and lively, the other is run down and has a scruffy air of depression about it and a few lairy characters hanging about outside smoking and bickering. I’ve never, despite living on that street for a decade been in that second pub. It’s not like there’s a regular riot in there or anything, it’s just not an attractive places to enter and it’s the same with the North Side, it doesn’t need to be Kabul to give people the general impression that there are nicer places where you could be spending your time and money.
There are several practical things that could be done.
Firstly, a policing presence would be nice. As several have mentioned, there’s never a Guard around when you need one.
Secondly, they need to move some of the drug treatment centres. They don’t need to move to the ‘leafy suburbs’ either, that’s not where the drugs problem is. The centres need to move to places like Tallaght or Ballymun or other places that the addicts are arriving from, treat them in their own communities, even if that means provided places to shoot up.
Thirdly, planning is an big issue, DCC need to think big, not piecemeal. There has to be a coherent strategy for the area.
Fourthly, stuff the handwringing quangos. Who though a homeless drop in centre in the middle of Temple Bar was good idea? We need to re-introduce the drunk tank. Hammered in the middle of the day or off your tits? Belligerent when told to jog on? 24 hours in the drunk tank for you buddy!
That way the police would have an effective means of moving on troublemakers.

Dyr

conorhal wrote: »

The centres need to move to places like Tallaght or Ballymun or other places that the addicts are arriving from, treat them in their own communities, even if that means provided places to shoot up.

There's a clinic in ballymun and tallaght, so maybe check a few facts before going off half cocked.

You might be surprised to find out that a lot of heroin addicts live between the canals and are being treated in their "own communities" in the city centre.

As previously said, people like you are a part of the problem. You don't want the issue dealt with, just out of your sight. A myopic approach ironically :pac:

alastair

Bambi wrote: »

There's a clinic in ballymun and tallaght, so maybe check a few facts before going off half cocked.

There's actually 6 treatment centres in Tallaght.

conorhal

Bambi wrote: »

There's a clinic in ballymun and tallaght, so maybe check a few facts before going off half cocked.

You might be surprised to find out that a lot of heroin addicts live between the canals and are being treated in their "own communities" in the city centre.

As previously said, people like you are a part of the problem. You don't want the issue dealt with, just out of your sight. A myopic approach ironically :pac:

Then Put the treatment centers in Dolphins Barn etc. O'Connell street isn't the place for drop in centers.
Junkies and tourism don't mix and it's myopic of those that think so that are the problem with the city center.
They SHOULD be dealt with out of sight or areas which we market as a tourist attraction and were businesses are trying to operate.

Where, by they way, did I say that I didn't want the issue dealt with?
I do. There needs to be a massive increece in beds for addicts in drugs treatment programs, nobody would disagree with that, but those that think the current approach of ignoring the problem or refusing to see it are the biggest stumbling block to fixing it.

drumswan

conorhal wrote: »

Then Put the treatment centers in Dolphins Barn etc. O'Connell street isn't the place for drop in centers.

Or how about the Gardai just arrest people who break the law?

conorhal

drumswan wrote: »

Or how about the Gardai just arrest people who break the law?

That was point 1. of my previous post (and point 3).

There is an issue with the concentration of services though. If they were spread out and moved to within the comunities they served then you wouldn't have the critical mass of junkies taking over areas like the boardwalk that makes for an unplesant atmosphere or the critical mass of dealers that make for a dangerous one.

Dyr

conorhal wrote: »

Then Put the treatment centers in Dolphins Barn etc. O'Connell street isn't the place for drop in centers.
Junkies and tourism don't mix and it's myopic of those that think so that are the problem with the city center.
They SHOULD be dealt with out of sight or areas which we market as a tourist attraction and were businesses are trying to operate.

Where, by they way, did I say that I didn't want the issue dealt with?
I do. There needs to be a massive increece in beds for addicts in drugs treatment programs, nobody would disagree with that, but those that think the current approach of ignoring the problem or refusing to see it are the biggest stumbling block to fixing it.

Is there a treatment centre on O'Connell street? Are there beds in methadone clinics? All news to me :eek:


Maybe they could move a few clinics out to raheny or sutton if you really don't want them around tourists.

Everything thing you've posted said that you don't want the issue dealt with just swept somewhere that you and the tourists wont have to see it