Formula 1 2014: Round 15 - Japanese Grand Prix (NO FOOTAGE OF THE CRASH ALLOWED)

_rebelkid

ScumLord wrote: »

His crash seems a bit different to the car that went before him. The previous car turned around with oversteer whereas Jules seemed to go straight off at speed. You'd have expect if he lost control of the car to arrive at that wall backwards like the car before him.

The video I saw didn't really show what happened before the crash, just the car appearing already off the road.

From what I can tell, there's normally a river running diagonally across the track, from left to right, just before the first apex of Dunlop. It looks like Sutil missed that, as he spun just after the apex. But with the line Bianchi's car was taking, he must have started to spin just before the apex, where a river was forming. The rain was increasing at that point, and he was mid-stint on his tyres, which would suggest that aqua planing was a big factor.

Scotty #

Under a yellow flag there is no speed limit but lap times must drop by a certain amount or drivers face a penalty.

It is possible that Bianchi eased off too much resulting in a loss of downforce great enough for him to be more likely to aquaplane, bit of a catch 22, but this is highly unlikely. He was travelling fast enough to lift a Caterpillar 980H, which weighs 7000kg (with almost all the weight in that big solid ballast of iron at the back), 2 feet off the ground and spin it almost 90 degrees. That takes a huge amount of force. In a strange way though, his speed may have saved his life. If he were travelling any slower he would have likely lodged under the truck and that would have been catastrophic. 6" to the left and I think he would have been DOA, 6" to the right and he probably would have stepped out of the car himself. The goods news is he's stable, by no means out of the woods, but stable is best we can hope for at the moment.

_rebelkid

Bianchi's Famiy have released a statement through Marussia's Press Representative.

“This is a very difficult time for our family, but the messages of support and affection for Jules from all over the world have been a source of great comfort to us. We would like to express our sincere appreciation.

“Jules remains in the Intensive Care Unit of the Mie General Medical Center in Yokkaichi. He has suffered a diffuse axonal injury and is in a critical but stable condition. The medical professionals at the hospital are providing the very best treatment and care and we are grateful for everything they have done for Jules since his accident.

“We are also grateful for the presence of Professor Gerard Saillant, President of the FIA Medical Commission, and Professor Alessandro Frati, Neurosurgeon of the University of Rome La Sapienza, who has travelled to Japan at the request of Scuderia Ferrari. They arrived at the hospital today and met with the medical personnel responsible for Jules’ treatment, in order to be fully informed of his clinical status so that they are able to advise the family. Professors Saillant and Frati acknowledge the excellent care being provided by the Mie General Medical Center and would like to thank their Japanese colleagues.

“The hospital will continue to monitor and treat Jules and further medical updates will be provided when appropriate.”

Myrddin

Diffuse Axonal Injury

Looking at that on wikipedia, the numbers seem to paint a pretty grim picture

Myrddin

Myrddin wrote: »

Looking at that on wikipedia, the numbers seem to paint a pretty grim picture

From Wikipedia

with over 90% of patients with severe DAI never regaining consciousness.[2] Those who do wake up often remain significantly impaired.[3]

Hopefully, he will be one of the lucky ones.

_rebelkid

Myrddin wrote: »

Looking at that on wikipedia, the numbers seem to paint a pretty grim picture

It does. But with DAI's, the severity and extent of the injury plays a much larger part than other types of injuries. The more frontal the impact, the more severe. Bianchi's impact seemed more compression than impact, with the bottom of the tractor hitting the top of the helmet.

iano.p

Myrddin wrote: »

Looking at that on wikipedia, the numbers seem to paint a pretty grim picture

Just looked it up. It doesn't look good for jules. You would hope he can make a recovery

acquiescefc

Its kinda lucky the JCB had sutils car hooked up. It seems the counter balance lifted its rear end up.
Imagine it lessened the impact it could've been.

Larbre34

Recovery with any sort of quality is very unlikely. Having seen a cousin with severe brain injuries exist in limbo for some time, I would wish him an early rest, for his sake and the family. We aren't talking about a Schumacher parallel here, its catastrophically worse.

ScumLord

The fact it happened on an F1 track and he had almost immediate medical care should hopefully go in his favour. Doctors are able to control the situation better the sooner they can get the patient under their care.

TouchingVirus

This is incredibly saddening news. If he survives and is not in a persistent coma then his quality of life will be severely diminished. The rate of deceleration (rotational acceleration) is a big factor in how bad a DAI is and he hit the back of a Cat/JCB lifter with no give in it. #ForzaJules

mickdw

From a quick Google, it would seem to be an injury caused by the brain moving inside the skull as opposed to any actual blow to the head, an injury typical of a sudden deceleration of the head. Unfortunately his helmet must have contacted the underside of the machine and suffered a deceleration there far greater than the overall deceleration of the car.
We have no idea of the severity so it's too early to say surely what his chances are.

veganrun

Hartstein has a blog about this injury.

http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/diffuse-axonal-injury/

BrianD3

Horrible crash, we've seen worrying head injuries before (Wendlinger, Massa, Hakkinen etc.) but I fear that this is a lot worse and more akin to a Marco Campos type injury.

Jackie Stewart was scheduled to be interviewed on the Pat Kenny show this morning - did anyone hear it, the Bianchi crash was surely discussed. The danger of F1 cars sliding under objects and the head taking an impact has been obvious for years. In Stewart's era, at least two drivers were killed in a gruesome manner by going under barriers that gave way. This issue was solved but as already stated in this thread Martin Brundle hit a marshal and nearly hit a tractor 20 years ago at Suzuka and has mentioned the danger on numerous occasions. IIRC Coulthard has also pointed out these dangers in commentary.

The issue of recovery machinery seems like one that should have been relatively straightforward to solve without adversely affecting the sport or radically altering the cars or circuits.

h3000

BrianD3 wrote: »

Horrible crash, we've seen worrying head injuries before (Wendlinger, Massa, Hakkinen etc.) but I fear that this is a lot worse and more akin to a Marco Campos type injury.

Jackie Stewart was scheduled to be interviewed on the Pat Kenny show this morning - did anyone hear it, the Bianchi crash was surely discussed. The danger of F1 cars sliding under objects and the head talking an impact has been obvious for years. In Stewart's era, at least two drivers were killed in a gruesome manner by going under barriers that gave way. This issue was solved but as already stated in this thread Martin Brundle hit a marshal and nearly hit a tractor 20 years ago at Suzuka and has mentioned the danger on numerous occasions. IIRC Coulthard has also pointed out these dangers in commentary.

The issue of recovery machinery seems like one that should have been relatively straightforward to solve without adversely affecting the sport or radically altering the cars or circuits.

I haven't listened yet but you can hear it hear at 29:30 minutes
http://www.newstalk.ie/player/listen_back/13240/13339/07th_October_2014_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_2

The interview was recorded last week though.

veganrun

Bit more info about the injury.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/10/bianchi-family-issues-a-statement-on-jules-condition/

Mike Litoris

veganrun wrote: »

Bit more info about the injury.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/10/bianchi-family-issues-a-statement-on-jules-condition/

Its mentioned that its the same type of injury Richard Hammond suffered. Fingers crossed he can make a similar recovery. Even if he makes a good recovery his f1 career is surely over which is a crying shame as he showed great promise.

walshb

veganrun wrote: »

Bit more info about the injury.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/10/bianchi-family-issues-a-statement-on-jules-condition/

Wide area injury I take from that.

tunguska

LIGHTNING wrote: »

If you don't like it your free not to post in here.

By the same token you're also free not to look at any clips that would be posted. We're all adults here, everybody is free to choose what they do and dont watch.

Frank Bullitt

Its the same type of injury that Richard Hammond suffered, he only woke up a week after his crash as well.

It's still early days to even begin to think of how this might eventually turn out (good or bad).

Speculating isn't helpful, just have to wait.

who_me

BrianD3 wrote: »

The issue of recovery machinery seems like one that should have been relatively straightforward to solve without adversely affecting the sport or radically altering the cars or circuits.

If you mean using 'non-intrusive' cranes to lift cars, they're not really a solution IMO. Yes, there's less risk of a car hitting the vehicle, but it still requires marshals out on the track to hook the car up and stabilise it for the lift, who will still be in danger. If Bianchi had spun just a few metres to the left he probably would be fine and we'd be mourning the death of one of the marshals instead.

The speed of the vehicles when under double-waved yellows is a large part of it. I'd also worry about the behaviour behind the safety car - when lapped cars are 'released' to reform at the back of the field, is that always done after all marshals and equipment have cleared the track? If not, having the safety car on track is a bit pointless.

But even if you introduce a "yellow flag" mode in the cars, there still are risks. Lower speed, lower brake & tyre temperatures, meaning less drivable cars & more risk on the restart.

ScumLord

who_me wrote: »

But even if you introduce a "yellow flag" mode in the cars, there still are risks. Lower speed, lower brake & tyre temperatures, meaning less drivable cars & more risk on the restart.

That's the bottom line, no matter how much effort and planning people put into making F1 safe it is an inherently dangerous motorsport, probably one of the most dangerous because the drivers head is exposed. Even with the best planning it's not until something actually happens that you can find the flaws, as with airplane disasters. But every time something happens the sport gets safer.

There have been numerous times when drivers got away with accidents purely on luck, an inch that way or this way could have killed someone.

I think TV schedules aren't a good thing for the sport either, they bring in an element of haste that doesn't mix well with safety.

Ghost Train

Wonder could they drag out a temporary tech pro type barrier in front of the area they're working in. Might be a bit too awkward to do in most cases

antodeco

Ghost Train wrote: »

Wonder could they drag out a temporary tech pro type barrier in front of the area they're working in. Might be a bit too awkward to do in most cases

I was thinking of that. I wonder could the have a separate vehicle that blocks the crane, which is basically a tyre wall on wheels.

Ghost Train

antodeco wrote: »

I was thinking of that. I wonder could the have a separate vehicle that blocks the crane, which is basically a tyre wall on wheels.

for tarmac runoffs it might work

veganrun

I wonder will they change the rules for this weekend and bring out the safety car straight away? On the face of it, its the easiest and quickest solution while they take some time to think of a more long term approach. Although there has to be a happy medium. In Singapore, it was out for far too long and it seemed like they could have cleared the debris sooner.

Zcott

I think the only solution is much stricter enforcement of slowing down during yellow flag zones. With the lights on the circuit and the lights in the cockpit going, there isn't much of an excuse for not slowing down, especially if the safety car is out. I'd like to see drive-through penalties applied to anyone who doesn't slow down significantly in yellow flag zones. Right now you'll get punished in qualifying but not in the race if you ignore yellow flags.

veganrun

Zcott wrote: »

I think the only solution is much stricter enforcement of slowing down during yellow flag zones. With the lights on the circuit and the lights in the cockpit going, there isn't much of an excuse for not slowing down, especially if the safety car is out. I'd like to see drive-through penalties applied to anyone who doesn't slow down significantly in yellow flag zones. Right now you'll get punished in qualifying but not in the race if you ignore yellow flags.

I think on James Allen's website I read that some engineers said that some drivers barely lift the throttle during yellow flags. They have lights in the cockpit too and the flags are secondary to the cockpit and circuit lights. I think there probably has to be more enforcement of that alright, but not sure how to do so in a safe manner without causing further accidents if drivers slow down too much or something.

Zcott

veganrun wrote: »

I think on James Allen's website I read that some engineers said that some drivers barely lift the throttle during yellow flags. They have lights in the cockpit too and the flags are secondary to the cockpit and circuit lights. I think there probably has to be more enforcement of that alright, but not sure how to do so in a safe manner without causing further accidents if drivers slow down too much or something.

If you're in a pack of drivers, everyone slows down, or the power is limited from the pits using GPS. It wouldn't be that hard to do.

SnowDrifts

I would hate to see the safety car being brought out every time a car needs to be collected. It's not just a matter of having it out for one lap... it first has to pick up the leaders... then the whole rigmarole of letting the back markers through.

Rather focus on ensuring drivers obey double yellows and slow down like they are supposed to.

AMKC

SnowDrifts wrote: »

I would hate to see the safety car being brought out every time a car needs to be collected. It's not just a matter of having it out for one lap... it first has to pick up the leaders... then the whole rigmarole of letting the back markers through.

Rather focus on ensuring drivers obey double yellows and slow down like they are supposed to.

I don,t think they would need to bring out the safety car every time a crashed car or one that had gone of the track and got stuck in say a gravel pit. I think in the dry as long as the drivers obey the yellow flags and the car is not in the way or in a dangerous spot then then there should be no need.
But if it was like in Japan at a corner like that and very wet then yes I think the safety car should be out as it should have been out that day as soon as Sutils car went off the track.

Mech1

why not scrap the safety car, Full course yellow instead, Leaders car gets progressivly limited or restricts pace to maybe 80 MPH no overtaking, pits open for 2 min after declaration, green given by cockpit light to all drivers at the same time on a random part of track no radio guidance?

Full course yellow could be for 10 seconds or 10 min depending on situ.

mickdw

Mech1 wrote: »

why not scrap the safety car, Full course yellow instead, Leaders car gets progressivly limited or restricts pace to maybe 80 MPH no overtaking, pits open for 2 min after declaration, green given by cockpit light to all drivers at the same time on a random part of track no radio guidance?

Full course yellow could be for 10 seconds or 10 min depending on situ.

I Don't think depending on the drivers to adequately slow down is really good enough.
Give a racing driver an opportunity to close the gap to the car in front and he will push the limits of what is safe and what is allowed.
Sadly, I think We will see more of this driving to delta times which I don't like but it would guarantee that the cars slow anyway.

_rebelkid

bbability

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a Safety car should be deployed every time a car skids off. It should be deployed when a JCB is within the track boundaries to remove a vehicle. In this case I don't think it would have mattered. Let's hope he pulls through. It was an awful smash. Let's see what comes out of the investigation.

Scotty #

Ultimately, F1 is all about technology. It would be very easy to have a system where by a signal is sent to the car as it passes a yellow flag point, automatically engaging some kind of power restriction on the car, similar to the pit lane limiter but not as harsh obviously. When it passes the green flag point the restriction is automatically lifted again.

Leaving it to drivers to voluntarily slow down doesn't work. If it did we wouldn't need safety cars.

mickdw

Was just looking at the crash corner on street view. Very little runoff area there. After looking at it, it was absolute madness having marshals there is wet conditions.
Well into the exit stage of the corner too. Must be as the drivers put some power in that they were getting caught out.

Vegeta

Scotty # wrote: »

Ultimately, F1 is all about technology. It would be very easy to have a system where by a signal is sent to the car as it passes a yellow flag point, automatically engaging some kind of power restriction on the car, similar to the pit lane limiter but not as harsh obviously. When it passes the green flag point the restriction is automatically lifted again.

Leaving it to drivers to voluntarily slow down doesn't work. If it did we wouldn't need safety cars.

I think the image you posted earlier with the track sections shown in green and yellow is the reason this would not work. As you said, having to lift off in a high speed corner is likely to have contributed to this crash.

Sterling Archer

Personally I believe in Code 60, although 60km/h is possible too slow for f1 maybe use 60mph instead and just like currently where the track is divided into sections, a section would have yellow flags displayed first (that section the determined as being a yellow section),
then into double yellows and then into a code 60 section if the situation necessitates it (car in an in accessible location, track vehicles needed etc.)
Then imply a zero tolerance for drivers who break the code 60 (although it'll just be a switch on the steering wheel) with drive through & stop go penalties.

Drivers will quickly start obeying a code 60, rather than risk loosing 25+ seconds just the gain a few seconds

Green - Racing
Yellow - incident
Double Yellow - car in possibly dangerous position
Code 60 - Recover vehicles on track/ exposed marshals etc
Safety car - everything else

mickdw

Shane_ef wrote: »

Personally I believe in Code 60, although 60km/h is possible too slow for f1 maybe use 60mph instead and just like currently where the track is divided into sections, a section would have yellow flags displayed first (that section the determined as being a yellow section),
then into double yellows and then into a code 60 section if the situation necessitates it (car in an in accessible location, track vehicles needed etc.)
Then imply a zero tolerance for drivers who break the code 60 (although it'll just be a switch on the steering wheel) with drive through & stop go penalties.

Drivers will quickly start obeying a code 60, rather than risk loosing 25+ seconds just the gain a few seconds

Green - Racing
Yellow - incident
Double Yellow - car in possibly dangerous position
Code 60 - Recover vehicles on track/ exposed marshals etc
Safety car - everything else

I like it.
To be honest, my opinion is that a driver who would not try gain an advantage at the current yellow flag situation is not really a racing driver so you have to take it out of their hands.
Having said that, it's surely aquaplaning situations that are the most dangerous.

pegasus1

OSI wrote: »

They can't even get DRS to work properly, and the pit lane limiter is manual.

But they get fined if they go over...give a speed gun to every marshall section..

losthorizon

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116271

Here is a summary of the crash findings

bbability

Press conference held this afternoon in relation to the crash in Japan with Jules. Bianchi. They showed the CCTV footage from Suzuka of the crash which seemed to have caught a few reporters out from Ted Kravtizs reaction on the F1 Show. They were not allowed to record any footage while it was shown to the press. It seems lots of drivers ignored the yellow flags and didn't slow down.

losthorizon

bbability wrote: »

Press conference held this afternoon in relation to the crash in Japan with Jules. Bianchi. They showed the CCTV footage from Suzuka of the crash which seemed to have caught a few reporters out from Ted Kravtizs reaction on the F1 Show. They were not allowed to record any footage while it was shown to the press. It seems lots of drivers ignored the yellow flags and didn't slow down.

In fairness, any ignoring of yellow flags should incur a penalty. The question has to be asked why were no penalties given? Has the same occurred in other races?

Rucking_Fetard

Why do people have to die for them to make the changes people have been saying are (and obviously were) needed for years?

Zcott

Rucking_Fetard wrote: »

Why do people have to die for them to make the changes people have been saying are (and obviously were) needed for years?

Because in 64 years of modern F1 I don't remember this happening. Accidents will happen.

Rucking_Fetard

Zcott wrote: »

Because in 64 years of modern F1 I don't remember this happening. Accidents will happen.

So you're saying they couldn't be arsed because it hadn't happened yet.

There's no point in knee-jerks but the issue of not slowing down for yellows is quite old at this stage. There must be some stupid agreement on electronics that won't let them enforce it properly.

Could the CCTV have been much worse than the fan videos that are up?

Zcott

Rucking_Fetard wrote: »

So you're saying they couldn't be arsed because it hadn't happened yet.

No. A serious accident could occur if a driver hit a bird with his helmet at 200mph but the chances of that happening are slim and no precautions have been taken to eradicate all birds from a racetrack. Same with this accident: no one expected it to happen because it hasn't happened before, so precautions to avoid it were unnecessary.

greedygoblin

Zcott wrote: »

No. A serious accident could occur if a driver hit a bird with his helmet at 200mph but the chances of that happening are slim and no precautions have been taken to eradicate all birds from a racetrack. Same with this accident: no one expected it to happen because it hasn't happened before, so precautions to avoid it were unnecessary.

I disagree. The danger was obvious considering some of the near misses from past seasons. Some people were relatively vocal about the dangers of cars going around at full speed while recovery vehicles were on the track. Precautions were very much needed but were not taken.