Formula 1 2014: Round 15 - Japanese Grand Prix (NO FOOTAGE OF THE CRASH ALLOWED)

clear thinking

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

the head is one area the FIA never really considered protecting,especially after all the changes introduced following Senna's accident,then again look at Massa's 15 years later,the only difference between Senna,Massa & Bianchi is Massa was conscious after his accident,here's to seeing Jules in a Ferrari sooner rather than later

maybe I'm misreading but since 96 the driver has had protection around the head with the cockpit opening extended to derisk impact in a collision. They subsequently added on the neck restraints and removable seat, ie a quasi spinal board.
but obviously the cars are not designed for impact with a digger and that is where the serious questions are. Would have been better to just leave sutils car there. 2020 hindsight is great 😞

V.W.L 11

clear thinking wrote: »

maybe I'm misreading but since 96 the driver has had protection around the head with the cockpit opening extended to derisk impact in a collision. They subsequently added on the neck restraints and removable seat, ie a quasi spinal board.
but obviously the cars are not designed for impact with a digger and that is where the serious questions are. Would have been better to just leave sutils car there. 2020 hindsight is great 😞

Improved yes,no disputing that,but they were on about an enclosed cockpit around the drivers head after Hungary 09,but as you say they don't do tests to make them Digger/tractor proof,needless to say were it sutil's car bianchi hit and not the recovery vehicle he would have (eventually) walked away, but Niki Lauda doesn't blame the FIA for it

V.W.L 11

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

the head is one area the FIA never really considered protecting,especially after all the changes introduced following Senna's accident,then again look at Massa's 15 years later,the only difference between Senna,Massa & Bianchi is Massa was conscious after his accident,here's to seeing Jules in a Ferrari sooner rather than later

Other than making it closed-cockpit how much more protection are you expecting for the head? Massa's incident was a complete freak btw.

_rebelkid

Deleted User wrote: »

Other than making it closed-cockpit how much more protection are you expecting for the head? Massa's incident was a complete freak btw.

And being honest, a closed cockpit wouldn't have done anything for Bianchi.

_rebelkid

_rebelkid wrote: »

And being honest, a closed cockpit wouldn't have done anything for Bianchi.

I was gonna say but I didn't want to get too detailed. :P

_rebelkid

F**k DHL.

Mena

_rebelkid wrote: »

F**k DHL.

That has to be photoshopped. Right? :-(

antodeco

It's not. I just checked it on Facebook myself. Disgusting

mickdw

I dont get it? Do you mean they are basically gaining publicity for themselves out of the accident?

_rebelkid

mickdw wrote: »

I dont get it? Do you mean they are basically gaining publicity for themselves out of the accident?

1 liek = 1 pray

dloob

I've seen the picture of the car post crash that Taki Inoue tweeted.
Yes the roll hoop is gone but not all of it and his helmet seems completely intact, which wasn't the case with the Massa and Villota incidents.
I actually found it somewhat encouraging, ok massive deceleration of the head is very serious, but at least that is all it is.

LIGHTNING

LIGHTNING wrote: »

What a total load of nonsense! The FIA has never considered protecting drivers heads? What world are you living in? The FIA and the various technical groups are constantly improving all areas of safety. Negating the car itself, helmet design has dramatically improved, HANS devices, drivers internal body temps monitoring etc etc.

I hope this accident doesn't start the usual knee jerk crap you see after a bad accident.

A "kneejerk" in improving recovery vehicles wouldn't be a bad thing. Millions have been spent on changing the tracks over the last few decades but they're still using vehicles that have been criticised since the 80s and have been involved in a few close calls.

Irish Steve

Deleted User wrote: »

A "kneejerk" in improving recovery vehicles wouldn't be a bad thing. Millions have been spent on changing the tracks over the last few decades but they're still using vehicles that have been criticised since the 80s and have been involved in a few close calls.

And finding a replacement vehicle that is capable of lifting a car, and then moving with it over the gravel trap environment is not going to be easy, which is why they still use machines such as the one that's been involved in today's incident. The only thing wrong with the vehicle is that it was in the wrong place at the wrong moment, if it had been required to go closer to the track to recover a car from that position, I'm sure the safety car would have been deployed sooner, but in that position, it was almost out of the trackside environment.

The real issue is the timing of the race to suit broadcasting audiences, which meant that as a result of the earlier red flag because of the conditions, it was getting close to sunset, and the light was fading, making it hard for the drivers to recognise through the spray the position of the deeper water that was running across the track, which was what caused the car to lose grip and come off the racing line.

From the little we did see on the TV, the marshals did nothing wrong as such, and they were responding to the original Sutil incident in accordance with race control information, it was the rapidly changing (and deteriorating) track conditions that were the prime cause of this accident.

I just hope that Jules will make a good recovery from an accident that he was probably powerless to prevent.

Peanut Butter Jelly

I have a solution. Mobile cranes.



Yes they're not cheap, but they could prevent accidents like Jules'. Sit them behind the barriers and then use them to recover the cars. That one must have a reach of what, 20+ metres? Easily enough to cope with recovering a car in the barriers. The great thing is that even if it's out of reach, it can drive a bit, set its stabilisers, and have the car lifted by the time the safety car is around again. Would everyone agree with that?

Zcott

An easier solution would be to enforce pit lane speeds at accident sites.

Cookie_Monster

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

Yes they're not cheap, but they could prevent accidents like Jules'. Sit them behind the barriers and then use them to recover the cars. That one must have a reach of what, 20+ metres? Easily enough to cope with recovering a car in the barriers. The great thing is that even if it's out of reach, it can drive a bit, set its stabilisers, and have the car lifted by the time the safety car is around again. Would everyone agree with that?

no. They're good in some places and Japan has plenty dotted around the track but they are not easy to move quickly. The time it would take to lower, move and re-jack a crane is considerable and totally impractical for the fast responses required.

Some form of steel skirting around the base of such loaders is a reasonably cheap and easy solution which allows the current machinery to remain in place for the most part.

Bloodwing

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

I have a solution. Mobile cranes.


Yes they're not cheap, but they could prevent accidents like Jules'. Sit them behind the barriers and then use them to recover the cars. That one must have a reach of what, 20+ metres? Easily enough to cope with recovering a car in the barriers. The great thing is that even if it's out of reach, it can drive a bit, set its stabilisers, and have the car lifted by the time the safety car is around again. Would everyone agree with that?

If I'm not mistaken they use these types of cranes at Monaco.

mickdw

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

I have a solution. Mobile cranes.



Yes they're not cheap, but they could prevent accidents like Jules'. Sit them behind the barriers and then use them to recover the cars. That one must have a reach of what, 20+ metres? Easily enough to cope with recovering a car in the barriers. The great thing is that even if it's out of reach, it can drive a bit, set its stabilisers, and have the car lifted by the time the safety car is around again. Would everyone agree with that?

There are areas they cannot access hence the tractors. Having said that, there is enough money in f1 is ensure all areas are modified to be accessed by crane.
Even if the tractors were sheeted all around in metal down to the ground, it would be safer as that would be similar to hitting a wall. Its the gap under the tractor chassis that is the killer with f1 cars going under and drivers head meeting the solid machine.

Bloodwing

I suppose making the recovery vehicles safer isn't the only thing that needs to be looked at. If the crane hadn't been there there's every possibility that a Marshall could have been standing there.

Maybe restricting the speed of the cars in sectors with marshalls inside the barriers is a possible solution.

Irish Steve

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

Sit them behind the barriers and then use them to recover the cars. That one must have a reach of what, 20+ metres? Easily enough to cope with recovering a car in the barriers. The great thing is that even if it's out of reach, it can drive a bit, set its stabilisers, and have the car lifted by the time the safety car is around again. Would everyone agree with that?

They are used already, I see them regularly on a lot of circuits, there were cranes at other locations today, but there are problems, they can't move with a load on the hook, and the time needed to set the stabilisers, perform a lift, and then restow it all is a LOT longer than the average lap time of a F! circuit
Setting stabilisers on gravel is almost impossible without significant load spreaders, and the time to place, and then remove them, in a lot of cases, they'd end up red flagging the race for a while. They're also a LOT bigger than the JCB type machine that was used today, so an even bigger risk for the period of time they are trackside.

Make no mistake about it, all the people involved in running F1 WILL look very closely at exactly what happened today, and I am sure that there will be changes, but the reality is that F! is incredibly safe when compared to even a few years ago, and the chain of events that resulted in the accident today could not have been easily predicted, and hindsight is always 20/20.

Now it's happened, I am sure there will be pressure to make changes, either in the equipment used, or the manner in which it is deployed after an accident.

Crasp

RayM wrote: »

We really know nothing yet. I prefer to try and think of cases like Mika Hakkinen or Niki Lauda - neither of whom were initially expected to recover at all from their accidents.

We know for a fact that he has had an operation based on CT scan findings, therefore 1 or other or both of the above.

But that's not to say he won't recover, they would not have operated if the CT scan didn't show something which is potentially treatable with surgical intervention (like massa)

I sincerely hope that he can recover as well as massa did

frostie500

New statement from Marussia:

Marussia wrote:

Following the accident involving Jules Bianchi during yesterday’s 2014 Formula One Japanese Grand Prix at Suzuka Circuit, the Marussia F1 Team would like to acknowledge the huge outpouring of support and affection for Jules and the Team at this very difficult time.

With regard to the communication of information concerning Jules’ medical condition, we will respect, and be guided by, the wishes of the Bianchi family. Together with Jules’ care, they will remain our highest priority. Therefore, we would ask for patience and understanding with regard to further medical updates, which will be communicated in conjunction with the Mie General Medical Center in Yokkaichi, where Jules is being treated, when they feel it is appropriate.

Representatives of the Marussia F1 Team and Scuderia Ferrari will remain at the hospital to support Jules and the Bianchi family.

bbability

Max Mosley just on Sky Sports News. He "believes" the driver may not have slowed down for yellow flags. Honestly how does he know that at this early stage

thirteen.

bbability wrote: »

Max Mosley just on Sky Sports News. He "believes" the driver may not have slowed down for yellow flags. Honestly how does he know that at this early stage

Trying to place some the blame on Jules while he is in intensive care fighting for his life.

Stay classy Max.

Going Strong

bbability wrote: »

Max Mosley just on Sky Sports News. He "believes" the driver may not have slowed down for yellow flags. Honestly how does he know that at this early stage

The track position app showed the positions and sector times of all the drivers up to the accident. Bianchi was going at almost race pace when he crashed. In fairness to him, he wasn't doing anything different to any other driver passing through a double waved yellow zone. It's usually a case of easing off ever so slightly on the throttle so they can claim to have obeyed the 'slow down' ruling. As long as their time through the sector is slower than their previous lap (when no yellows were shown), then they're in the clear as far as the stewards are concerned.

It's an easy enough area for the FIA to sort out by being a lot more strict with enforcing the rule. Like most things in F1, it's the lax/non enforcement of existing rules and/or the 'lottery' element of what gets enforced and to who/when that causes so much issues.

Mitch Connor

thirteen. wrote: »

Trying to place some the blame on Jules while he is in intensive care fighting for his life.

Stay classy Max.

Or maybe stating a fact of the situation. Maybe Jules didn't slow down, maybe that was a significant factor in why he lost control of the car.

Not breathing without a respirator. Not good news. Really hope that somehow his condition can take a turn for the better. From all accounts apparently is a top chap.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-bianchi-incapable-breathing-unassisted-074030339--f1.html

Mitch Connor

glasso wrote: »

Not breathing without a respirator. Not good news. Really hope that somehow his condition can take a turn for the better. From all accounts apparently is a top chap.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-bianchi-incapable-breathing-unassisted-074030339--f1.html

Fingers crossed for him - awful to see this happen, and I can't even imagine how those close to him are feeling.

It is constantly said how dangerous the sport remains, and the risks these guys take every week - but with the advancements in safety tech and track design it has, imo, been somewhat forgotten about. I've forgotten about it myself. Just looking at the Formula E accident the other week; a massive smash and the guy walked away without serious issue. We see the impacts these cars survive and it has somewhat desensitized the viewing public to the danger (imo, and for me anyway). Seeing something like this, and the possible consequences, is almost alien to the sport now, and it will be interesting to see how the sport reacts to it. It is almost crazy to think the teams will be well under way to getting it all going again for next weekend in Russia. Overriding all of it, has to be thoughts of Bianchi.

Poly

Going Strong wrote: »

The track position app showed the positions and sector times of all the drivers up to the accident. Bianchi was going at almost race pace when he crashed. In fairness to him, he wasn't doing anything different to any other driver passing through a double waved yellow zone. It's usually a case of easing off ever so slightly on the throttle so they can claim to have obeyed the 'slow down' ruling. As long as their time through the sector is slower than their previous lap (when no yellows were shown), then they're in the clear as far as the stewards are concerned.

It's an easy enough area for the FIA to sort out by being a lot more strict with enforcing the rule. Like most things in F1, it's the lax/non enforcement of existing rules and/or the 'lottery' element of what gets enforced and to who/when that causes so much issues.

With the technology in the cars now, surely they can remotely control the cars speed when under caution, I've been to go-cart tracks where they can do it.

rrpc

Poly wrote: »

With the technology in the cars now, surely they can remotely control the cars speed when under caution, I've been to go-cart tracks where they can do it.

Very dangerous thing to do with an F1 car at speed. Especially on a wet track.