Formula 1 2014: Round 15 - Japanese Grand Prix (NO FOOTAGE OF THE CRASH ALLOWED)

Crasp

RayM wrote: »

We really know nothing yet. I prefer to try and think of cases like Mika Hakkinen or Niki Lauda - neither of whom were initially expected to recover at all from their accidents.

We know for a fact that he has had an operation based on CT scan findings, therefore 1 or other or both of the above.

But that's not to say he won't recover, they would not have operated if the CT scan didn't show something which is potentially treatable with surgical intervention (like massa)

I sincerely hope that he can recover as well as massa did

frostie500

New statement from Marussia:

Marussia wrote:

Following the accident involving Jules Bianchi during yesterday’s 2014 Formula One Japanese Grand Prix at Suzuka Circuit, the Marussia F1 Team would like to acknowledge the huge outpouring of support and affection for Jules and the Team at this very difficult time.

With regard to the communication of information concerning Jules’ medical condition, we will respect, and be guided by, the wishes of the Bianchi family. Together with Jules’ care, they will remain our highest priority. Therefore, we would ask for patience and understanding with regard to further medical updates, which will be communicated in conjunction with the Mie General Medical Center in Yokkaichi, where Jules is being treated, when they feel it is appropriate.

Representatives of the Marussia F1 Team and Scuderia Ferrari will remain at the hospital to support Jules and the Bianchi family.

bbability

Max Mosley just on Sky Sports News. He "believes" the driver may not have slowed down for yellow flags. Honestly how does he know that at this early stage

thirteen.

bbability wrote: »

Max Mosley just on Sky Sports News. He "believes" the driver may not have slowed down for yellow flags. Honestly how does he know that at this early stage

Trying to place some the blame on Jules while he is in intensive care fighting for his life.

Stay classy Max.

Going Strong

bbability wrote: »

Max Mosley just on Sky Sports News. He "believes" the driver may not have slowed down for yellow flags. Honestly how does he know that at this early stage

The track position app showed the positions and sector times of all the drivers up to the accident. Bianchi was going at almost race pace when he crashed. In fairness to him, he wasn't doing anything different to any other driver passing through a double waved yellow zone. It's usually a case of easing off ever so slightly on the throttle so they can claim to have obeyed the 'slow down' ruling. As long as their time through the sector is slower than their previous lap (when no yellows were shown), then they're in the clear as far as the stewards are concerned.

It's an easy enough area for the FIA to sort out by being a lot more strict with enforcing the rule. Like most things in F1, it's the lax/non enforcement of existing rules and/or the 'lottery' element of what gets enforced and to who/when that causes so much issues.

Mitch Connor

thirteen. wrote: »

Trying to place some the blame on Jules while he is in intensive care fighting for his life.

Stay classy Max.

Or maybe stating a fact of the situation. Maybe Jules didn't slow down, maybe that was a significant factor in why he lost control of the car.

Not breathing without a respirator. Not good news. Really hope that somehow his condition can take a turn for the better. From all accounts apparently is a top chap.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-bianchi-incapable-breathing-unassisted-074030339--f1.html

Mitch Connor

glasso wrote: »

Not breathing without a respirator. Not good news. Really hope that somehow his condition can take a turn for the better. From all accounts apparently is a top chap.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-bianchi-incapable-breathing-unassisted-074030339--f1.html

Fingers crossed for him - awful to see this happen, and I can't even imagine how those close to him are feeling.

It is constantly said how dangerous the sport remains, and the risks these guys take every week - but with the advancements in safety tech and track design it has, imo, been somewhat forgotten about. I've forgotten about it myself. Just looking at the Formula E accident the other week; a massive smash and the guy walked away without serious issue. We see the impacts these cars survive and it has somewhat desensitized the viewing public to the danger (imo, and for me anyway). Seeing something like this, and the possible consequences, is almost alien to the sport now, and it will be interesting to see how the sport reacts to it. It is almost crazy to think the teams will be well under way to getting it all going again for next weekend in Russia. Overriding all of it, has to be thoughts of Bianchi.

Poly

Going Strong wrote: »

The track position app showed the positions and sector times of all the drivers up to the accident. Bianchi was going at almost race pace when he crashed. In fairness to him, he wasn't doing anything different to any other driver passing through a double waved yellow zone. It's usually a case of easing off ever so slightly on the throttle so they can claim to have obeyed the 'slow down' ruling. As long as their time through the sector is slower than their previous lap (when no yellows were shown), then they're in the clear as far as the stewards are concerned.

It's an easy enough area for the FIA to sort out by being a lot more strict with enforcing the rule. Like most things in F1, it's the lax/non enforcement of existing rules and/or the 'lottery' element of what gets enforced and to who/when that causes so much issues.

With the technology in the cars now, surely they can remotely control the cars speed when under caution, I've been to go-cart tracks where they can do it.

rrpc

Poly wrote: »

With the technology in the cars now, surely they can remotely control the cars speed when under caution, I've been to go-cart tracks where they can do it.

Very dangerous thing to do with an F1 car at speed. Especially on a wet track.

OSI

OSI wrote: »

Wasn't there someone saying last season that the younger drivers have little respect for the danger of the sport now because it's been so safe (relatively) since the loss of Senna, and this was leading to them making riskier moves and dangerous mistakes? Can't remember who said it, but I do remember thinking it was a valid point.

Can't remember anyone specifically saying it but I think I made the point as well. Dan Wheldon dying a few years was a shock for the likes of Button and Davidson who came up through the ranks with him because while Senna and Ratzenberger was fresh in the minds of those around them there's now a generation of drivers who came up with a generation ahead of them who all survived. One wonders with the younger drivers how much of it is bravado but seeing the way they race in some of the lower Formulas is a bit worrying. I haven't seen much old F3 and the like but clips I've seen of crashes they were generally amateurish stuff whereas now there seems to be a lot more risk-taking or at least a lot less quarter given.

Poly

Poly wrote: »

With the technology in the cars now, surely they can remotely control the cars speed when under caution, I've been to go-cart tracks where they can do it.

The software they use can't differentiate between a backmarker and a competitor for DRS detection, ya really want to give them a remote for controlling the cars? :pac:

Whatever about the safety and no driver having died in F1 in 20 years as Lauda said yesterday -

"We get used to it if nothing happens, and then suddenly we’re all surprised. We always have to be aware that motor racing is very dangerous."

A number of factors came together yesterday

- bad weather causing conditions where acqua-planing was likely
- Sutil crash
- tractor brought out to move car from Sutil crash
- Bianchi not seeing the double yellow flags waved (he did not slow down) - "Two yellow flags waved simultaneously denotes a hazard that wholly or partly blocks the racing surface. This informs the driver that there may be marshals on the track and to prepare to stop, if necessary."
- Maybe didn't see flags due to the darkness (race delayed by 2 hours)
- Bianchi crash at same corner as Sutil and collides with tractor

Myrddin

They say hindsight is 20x20 vision & all that, but it's an important factor in learning from mistakes too. This accident was the culmination of several events that took place (rain, light fading, visibility) etc & I don't think there's solely one aspect that's to blame. But, in hindsight, should the race have been ran earlier? Yes, I think it should. I know that a lot of money/tv scheduling/ticket sales/spectators etc would all be put out by this change, but the fact is, if the race was ran two hours beforehand, it's likely that Jules would be on his way to Russia now.

In future, I think these Asian races have to suit our time schedules over here less & less, to stop putting pressure on drivers in terms if weather & dying light. Is it nice getting up at 6am on a Sunday to watch a race live? No of course not, but I can say one thing, I'd happily get up even earlier if it makes things any easier, or any safer for the people involved in F1. It's a sport/entertainment...we don't want to see people hurt like this. Yes by its very nature, F1 is dangerous, & that will never change...but do we have to add fuel to the fire by putting our own comforts & things like money in front of that safety?

This all sounds very knee-jerk I'd imagine, & yes these incidents are extremely rare. But that doesn't lessen the fact that Jules is in a very bad way right now. Would it really have mattered if I had to get up at 4am to watch this race? Would it really have mattered if half the people going missed a part of the race to have it start earlier? Would it really have mattered if whatever was scheduled on the tv had to be changed slightly? No, not compared to driver safety...nothing else matters.

flazio

When Suzuka was the season closer back in the 90s I used to love sneaking into the front room to watch the race in the early hours. Made me feel like a real fan.

The vehicles and race timing have been flagged numerous times before so talking about them isn't knee-jerking IMO.

recyclebin

Why is the guy waving a green flag right at the incident?

that was a terrrible crash. went though the tractor.

_rebelkid

The fact that Jules is still alive is testament to the safety improvements in the sport. That crash not 10 years ago, would have been fatal.

For anyone that doesn't want to watch it, the force was sufficient to lift the rear of the recovery tractor.

wotswattage

You see these types of barriers on motorway maintenance vehicles and I'm sure I've seen them on safety vehicles for oval tracks in the states too (though I can't find any evidence of the oval track ones). Rather than fitting them to the diggers themselves they could be placed on the side of a blocker vehicle which could move along with the digger.



PS Wishing Jules a full + speedy recovery

Tippex

I can say I am glad the FIA / FOM have not shown the footage. I have just seen what was recorded by someone in the crowd and it is horrendous.
I totally agree with the mods here about not allowing the links to the images or footage.

I really hope Jules pulls through this and if he does based on the footage I am amazed that he has the chance to pull through.

_rebelkid

To be honest, I don't think the tractor being in track was the problem. If it wasn't there, Bianchi was going through the Marshall post and fencing, and would have kept going such was the momentum. The yellow flags started just at the entry to Dunlop. That is where Bianchi started to lose it I feel. He was further right than Sutil, and Sutil lost it on exit of the first apex of Dunlop. Bianchi would have been lifting there, possibly braking. Whatever the case, the area he went through was a point where a river forms across the track. That caught Sutil out, and more than likely caught Jules, even more so with the rapid increase in rain.

Redo91

NO ASKING FOR VIDEO LINKS

_rebelkid

_rebelkid wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think the tractor being in track was the problem. If it wasn't there, Bianchi was going through the Marshall post and fencing, and would have kept going such was the momentum. The yellow flags started just at the entry to Dunlop. That is where Bianchi started to lose it I feel. He was further right than Sutil, and Sutil lost it on exit of the first apex of Dunlop. Bianchi would have been lifting there, possibly braking. Whatever the case, the area he went through was a point where a river forms across the track. That caught Sutil out, and more than likely caught Jules, even more so with the rapid increase in rain.

I haven't seen the video but the marshal post walls are perfectly adequate for slowing down a car just as much as any other wall/barrier.

_rebelkid

Deleted User wrote: »

I haven't seen the video but the marshal post walls are perfectly adequate for slowing down a car just as much as any other wall/barrier.

Just looking again at the map, he actually would have bounced off a barrier, and may have gone through the fence out onto the chicane behind.

Tippex

Redo91 wrote: »

Where did you guys find the footage? I can't come across it anywhere.

It was up on youtube but FOM have done a great job and it is down as quick as it was put up.

I have to say that I was totally shocked at what I saw. The JCB had sutil's car raised and was starting to reverse and Bianchi's car came in like a missile straight under the back of the jcb hitting it hard enough that it lifted the jcb.

To be honest it is not something I would recommend for someone to actually go looking for.

Bianchi's car was never hitting the wall where it went off the track it was going straight through the gap. If the JCB was'nt there I honestly don't know what he would have hit but whatever it would have been he was hitting it head on.

SnowDrifts

That really was some impact. Wasn't expecting Bianchi's car to be travelling at such speeds when it hit the tractor. With the FIA's desire to replace gravel traps with tarmac run off's, I wonder would this be an argument against it. Gravel slows cars down when the track is saturated just as well as in the dry.

_rebelkid

_rebelkid wrote: »

Just looking again at the map, he actually would have bounced off a barrier, and may have gone through the fence out onto the chicane behind.

Which map? I'd be surprised if they have the barriers set up that poorly.
Also surprised at how he seems to be going completely straight the whole way, I assumed he would've been spinning after aquaplaning so much earlier.

TouchingVirus

He gave that tractor such a bang it's not difficult to see why he is in so much trouble right now. It's very sad and I'm sure there are lessons to be learned from it. I only hope that he pulls through and this isn't another "learn after somebody passes away" thing like so many other learning experiences in F1. #ForzaJules

iano.p

Hope to god he makes a full recovery. Why was the marshals up on the stand waving the green flag.

v3ttel

Wow, the impact is unbelievable. What the hell is the marshal doing waving a green flag about 10 meters away from the recovery vehicle? He continues to flutter even a couple of seconds after Bianchi's impact There has to be a serious investigation into that. It was supposed to be double waved yellows I thought?

Hope to God that he is ok and will make a full recovery. #ForzaJules

muckwarrior

A lot of people talking about somehow making emergency vehicles safer if impacted, but that wouldn't address the fact that a car could still mow down a marshall. What's needed is a mechanism to somehow reliably slow down the cars in a certain area to the extent that there's no risk of a car losing control. As always, easier said than done.

Myrddin

v3ttel wrote: »

Wow, the impact is unbelievable.

It really is bad isn't it

cherryghost

Just seen the crash, jesus christ, so unlucky. Thoughts with the family and friends.

macpac26

Deeply disturbing accident

Absolutely horrible.

Thoughts with Jules and his family #ForzaJules

Tippex

Tippex wrote: »

Bianchi's car was never hitting the wall where it went off the track it was going straight through the gap. If the JCB was'nt there I honestly don't know what he would have hit but whatever it would have been he was hitting it head on.

surely that gap was only there to let the jcb access and it wasn't there beforehand?

v3ttel

Myrddin wrote: »

It really is bad isn't it

Afraid so. It shows what an amazing job the barriers do to to absorb all that energy in normal circumstances.

I hope lessons can be learned from this so the recovery vehicles can effectively become mobile techpro barriers in future when on track (easy to say in hindsight) and that Bianchi makes a full recovery.

#ForzaJules

_rebelkid

muckwarrior wrote: »

A lot of people talking about somehow making emergency vehicles safer if impacted, but that wouldn't address the fact that a car could still mow down a marshall. What's needed is a mechanism to somehow reliably slow down the cars in a certain area to the extent that there's no risk of a car losing control. As always, easier said than done.

Le Man's Code 60 zones worked well. Drivers have to engage pit limiter at a certain point before and incident, and can disengage after. F1 tracks are a lot shorter though. But the premise works.

Frank Bullitt

Saw the accident this morning, I am astonished he wasn't killed outright!

ScumLord

I don't know that they could realistically make the recovery vehicles mobile crash barriers. From what I've heard in the past the service roads aren't all that wide and you'd need to add a metre or two of protection to a service vehicle to make it any ways safe and even then I'd have my doubts it would work without it being done at the manufacturers level.

I've always wondered why they don't use those large construction cranes you see on large building projects. Especially in the older tighter tracks where space is at a premium. As they don't have to lift all that much weight they could possibly make the arms much longer. On some tracks maybe 3 or 4 strategically place cranes could cover the majority of the track?

I suppose people might think they'd look ugly but there wouldn't be any need for them to be tall, they'd just need to be tall enough to clear whatever walls are on the track. Still, it would more than likely cost a few million per track.

Maybe they just wouldn't be able to cover enough of the track to make them financially viable. F1 is a TV spectacle which is what forces tracks to do dangerous work during a race where in a smaller league without TV coverage constraints they could easily just stop the race while they do the dangerous work and continue after the tracks safe again.

dloob

v3ttel wrote: »

Wow, the impact is unbelievable. What the hell is the marshal doing waving a green flag about 10 meters away from the recovery vehicle? He continues to flutter even a couple of seconds after Bianchi's impact There has to be a serious investigation into that. It was supposed to be double waved yellows I thought?

Hope to God that he is ok and will make a full recovery. #ForzaJules

End of Yellow flag zone no problem there.

Sterling Archer

I've just watched that footage, I'm shocked at the impact speed, but also both those marshals are very lucky the weren't struck but Sutils car or the Recovery vehicle after the impact..

tunguska

Just saw the crash there and ****ing hell that was some impact. He was very lucky not to have been killed, its shocking because you get into this false sense of security aorund F1. You can sometimes forget inherently dangerous the sport is.

pegasus1

Just saw the impact myself.....god how did he survive even....totally shocked...heads will roll for sure...total disregard for safety for both the marshalls and drivers...

_rebelkid

Irish F1 blogger Ben Sweeney, former F1 Doctor Gary Hartsein, and Eddie Irvine are discussing the incident on the BBC World Service right now.


16:29 Just finished. If there's a recording of it online, I'll post it.

Mike Litoris

Man that is shocking. Hope he'll pull through ok. Another couple of inches to the left and I reckon he was a gonner. As mentioned above its a miracle a marshal wasn't hurt or killed.

Zcott

On the back of every Motorsport ticket it says in large print 'MOTORSPORT IS DANGEROUS'. Even with increased head protection, safety cells, crash tests, and runoff areas, accidents will still happen. And that is one particularly horrible one. Really hope Jules pulls through.

I can only imagine what the poor marshals will be going through as well.

mickdw

Just saw the crash.
I hoping the strength of the actual roll hoop might just have saved him.
By all accounts his helmet was intact. From that I would assume he went under with his helmet hiting the sloped under tray of the machine.
I think its pretty obvious that if his head met the corner of the machine, he would be dead.
Hopefully the roll hoop took alot of the force and gave him room underneath it, pushing the machine upward
I wouldnt read too much into the machine being pushed up in the air as a gauge as to the severity of the accident . It had the sauber lifted at the time and they use quite a long jib to carry the f1 cars so that machine wouldn't take alot to tip it up.
I realise that much of the roll hoop was gone but those forces involved in ripping that off might just have been enough to push the machine upwards and away from him if he didn't have an immediate impact with his head.

veganrun

Saw a comment by Villeneuve who reckons the safety car should automatically come out if there is an accident, same way it does in the US. Was wondering myself if it has been deployed straight away, would Bianchi have had his accent.

It might slow the race down and close the pack up but I would take that any day over someone being seriously injured like this.

Redo91

_rebelkid wrote: »

Irish F1 blogger Ben Sweeney, former F1 Doctor Gary Hartsein, and Eddie Irvine are discussing the incident on the BBC World Service right now.


16:29 Just finished. If there's a recording of it online, I'll post it.

Please do. I'd be interested in hearing that.

Zcott wrote: »

On the back of every Motorsport ticket it says in large print 'MOTORSPORT IS DANGEROUS'. Even with increased head protection, safety cells, crash tests, and runoff areas, accidents will still happen. And that is one particularly horrible one. Really hope Jules pulls through.

I can only imagine what the poor marshals will be going through as well.

And Sutil too. If he hadn't gone of the track in the first place none of this would have happened. Not blaming him in any way shape or form but I know if I was in his position I would feel a degree of responsibility.