Formula 1 2014: Round 15 - Japanese Grand Prix (NO FOOTAGE OF THE CRASH ALLOWED)

ScumLord

veganrun wrote: »

Saw a comment by Villeneuve who reckons the safety car should automatically come out if there is an accident, same way it does in the US. Was wondering myself if it has been deployed straight away, would Bianchi have had his accent.

Even with a safety car this accident could still have had a chance to happen depending on where and when the safety car picked up the leader.

A double yellow with strict speed limits should be enough, all they need to do is slow the cars down to a crawl as they arrive at the accident. The warning would have to come over the radio to ensure the driver didn't miss the flags.

TheChrisD

wotswattage wrote: »

You see these types of barriers on motorway maintenance vehicles and I'm sure I've seen them on safety vehicles for oval tracks in the states too (though I can't find any evidence of the oval track ones).

Nope, you're confusing that for a sweeper installation at the end of some of the trucks to help clear excess Speedy Dry, if needed.

greedygoblin

ScumLord wrote: »

Even with a safety car this accident could still have had a chance to happen depending on where and when the safety car picked up the leader.

A double yellow with strict speed limits should be enough, all they need to do is slow the cars down to a crawl as they arrive at the accident. The warning would have to come over the radio to ensure the driver didn't miss the flags.

This would seem like the most sensible course of action. Given that visibility was very poor at the time, it questionable whether Bianchi or any other driver for that matter would have been able to see the waved yellows leading into Dunlop. Giving that notification over the radio could ensure the driver is left in no doubt.

This issue of recovery vehicles on the circuit while cars are going at or very close to racing speed has been an issue for a long time. Martin Brundle has been beating this drum for many years since his own near miss back in his racing days. More recently, Michael Schumacher had a lucky escape in Brazil back in the early 2000s. It's a pity that it has taken the FIA this length of time to address an issue which has been observed from many quarters to be a risk to driver safety.

Cookie_Monster

muckwarrior wrote: »

A lot of people talking about somehow making emergency vehicles safer if impacted, but that wouldn't address the fact that a car could still mow down a marshall. What's needed is a mechanism to somehow reliably slow down the cars in a certain area to the extent that there's no risk of a car losing control. As always, easier said than done.

like gravel traps you mean, which they've spent the last 10 years systematically removing...

Myrddin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

like gravel traps you mean, which they've spent the last 10 years systematically removing...

That's a good point. A gravel trap here would have changed the entire dynamic of the crash. I get that they're being removed to prevent cars from 'digging in' & flipping, & also to reward taking chances to pass etc...but I think in this particular instance, a gravel trap would have had a far better outcome.

ScumLord

Coulthard would always mention how unsafe he thought it was every time a tractor was on the track. You could almost feel the chill going down his spine whenever he said it in race commentary. It must be the scariest situation for a driver to be presented with. I can think of few things worse than one of those tractors to hit. The back of them is typically a lump of heavy solid steel to counterweight the lifting arm. There's nothing about them that's fragil.

wobbles

Jusr seen the videos as well. Sutils car was lifted by the JCB at the time and it was reversing back into opening in the fence. It was still in the gravel trap and the green flag was being waved. Once Bianchi hit the JCB, only then did it stop reversing. Had the JCB been 2 seconds later in reversing he would have missed it entirely. Had be been 2 seconds earlier he was gone under it completely. Scary stuff at how fast it happened.

A lot of questions have to be asked, the green flag was being waved at the marshal post when the JCB was still removing Sutils car, it was yellow then 10 seconds before the crash they waved green. It continued to be waved for 1 whole minute after the Bianchi crash up until safety car board went out. As far as I can remember, it was yellow flagged on TV the whole time. That itself is enough to cause doubt in the mind of the driver.

flazio

I seem to recall some commentator mentioning that the new low nose acts as a ramp up to a driver's head. I suspect that had the car had last year's nose it would have crumpled the tractor, not gone under it.

Ghost Train

wobbles wrote: »

A lot of questions have to be asked, the green flag was being waved at the marshal post when the JCB was still removing Sutils car, it was yellow then 10 seconds before the crash they waved green. It continued to be waved for 1 whole minute after the Bianchi crash up until safety car board went out. As far as I can remember, it was yellow flagged on TV the whole time. That itself is enough to cause doubt in the mind of the driver.

I think it would only be a concern if the same happened further down the track before the crash site. But I would say it's normal enough for a green flag to be waved just past the crash site. Once Sutils car was dragged back a few feet the Marshals post probably got a signal to say that they can wave green instead of yellow.

As far as I know the flag system is pretty advanced.
http://www.emmotorsport.com/portfolio/f1marshallingsystem

Don't drivers also gets light on the steering wheel when coming up to yellow flags so visibility and fading light would have been less a factor

flazio wrote: »

I seem to recall some commentator mentioning that the new low nose acts as a ramp up to a driver's head. I suspect that had the car had last year's nose it would have crumpled the tractor, not gone under it.

The back of tractor was still quite high, don't think the nose height was a factor really

ScumLord

flazio wrote: »

I seem to recall some commentator mentioning that the new low nose acts as a ramp up to a driver's head. I suspect that had the car had last year's nose it would have crumpled the tractor, not gone under it.

The back of that tractor is much higher than the nose of an F1 car. In the video the underside of the tractor starts pretty much at the height of the drivers head so a high nose would have done nothing to help.

Like I said, the back of these tractors is a solid lump of steel maybe a few feet thick. Nothing would crumple it.

Shane732

Just after seeing the crash there. The crash is pretty awful.

Did his head actually make contact with the JCB? Marshalls were very lucky to escape without accident.

It's hard to understand why the safety car didn't come out.

Will the on board footage come out?

Ghost Train

Shane732 wrote: »

It's hard to understand why the safety car didn't come out.

They were removing the car using double waved yellows (meaning drivers should be prepared to slow and stop if needed), would be normal enough procedure, immediately the second crash happened the marshals signaled for medical attention and safety car and medical car were sent out

iDave

Really hope a 20 year death free streak isn't broken

Shane732

Ghost Train wrote: »

They were removing the car using double waved yellows (meaning drivers should be prepared to slow and stop if needed), would be normal enough procedure, immediately the second crash happened the marshals signaled for medical attention and safety car and medical car were sent out

Fair enough but the first car was after aquaplaning, it was raining and there was poor visibility.

Safety cars are brought out at times for cars to be removed. If a safety car is going to be called out to remove a car then I think this instance would have been it.

walshb

Did Vettel take 3rd position? I thought he pitted juts before race stopped? The commentators spoke about Ricciardo getting another podium, but when the results were shown on screen, Vettel was given 3rd.

greedygoblin

walshb wrote: »

Did Vettel take 3rd position? I thought he pitted juts before race stopped? The commentators spoke about Ricciardo getting another podium, but when the results were shown on screen, Vettel was given 3rd.

When a race is stopped like that, the final positions are taken from the previous lap, and at that stage Vettel was still in third.

walshb

That was a desperate crash. I just saw it there on the dailymail site. Hope to god that young man survives and recovers well.

_rebelkid

BBC World Service. Bianchi section at the start.

just a comment - this is a very bad incident but why no links to the crash allowed. it's all over the internet (even on dailymail now) and it's not as if you can't go onto youtube and view all manner of horrible Russian car accidents if you really want to...

_rebelkid

glasso wrote: »

just a comment - this is a very bad incident but why no links to the crash allowed. it's all over the internet (even on dailymail now) and it's not as if you can't go onto youtube and view all manner of horrible Russian car accidents if you really want to...

Then go do that. Watch it if you want, but don't assume everyone wants to see it.

This thread has stayed out of the attention grabbing nature of "Exclusive crash pictures" and "new fan footage of huuuuuuge crash", and is all the better for it.

Mech1

_rebelkid wrote: »

Then go do that. Watch it if you want, but don't assume everyone wants to see it.

This thread has stayed out of the attention grabbing nature of "Exclusive crash pictures" and "new fan footage of huuuuuuge crash", and is all the better for it.

Thanks for the tips, seen it now, Worse than I expected. Get well soon man!

pegasus1

Ok so why not put the link to the daily mail page in a spoiler tag...thereby allowing people who dont want to see it as well as allowing people who do want to see it...its on facebook so everyone will see it in the end...

They should redesign a recovery vehicle to pick up a car via the 4 wheels and just lift safely and quickly depart the area of danger...none of this thing with a marshall wrestling with a swinging fragile car...counterweight should be slung under the recovery vehicle too..like a bus..so to speak..

Forza jules!!!

_rebelkid

pegasus1 wrote: »

Ok so why not put the link to the daily mail page in a spoiler tag...thereby allowing people who dont want to see it as well as allowing people who do want to see it...its on facebook so everyone will see it in the end...


Forza jules!!!

If people want to see it, they can find it themselves. No need for it here.

zombieHanalei

I'm happy with the decision not to allow footage of the crash here. I inadvertently saw a gif of it while browsing another website. I didn't want to see it but I'm glad I did now to be honest, the crash was bad but not quite as bad as I thought based on some pictures I had seen up to now.

Kind of gives me renewed hope he might somehow pull through this, whereas up to now I had a far more gruesome picture in my head on what the accident was like, particularly in terms of impact on his head. I has originally envisioned a clear head on impact but it appeared to be more of a glancing strike albeit at high speed. It was still pretty bad though

pegasus1

pegasus1 wrote: »

Ok so why not put the link to the daily mail page in a spoiler tag...thereby allowing people who dont want to see it as well as allowing people who do want to see it...its on facebook so everyone will see it in the end...

They should redesign a recovery vehicle to pick up a car via the 4 wheels and just lift safely and quickly depart the area of danger...none of this thing with a marshall wrestling with a swinging fragile car...counterweight should be slung under the recovery vehicle too..like a bus..so to speak..

Forza jules!!!

The high moral ground would be ceded... can't you see that :-)

Ghost Train

Shane732 wrote: »

Fair enough but the first car was after aquaplaning, it was raining and there was poor visibility.

Safety cars are brought out at times for cars to be removed. If a safety car is going to be called out to remove a car then I think this instance would have been it.

Your probably right that there was a good case for using safety car, but then it's not unusual for race to continue and recover car under double yellow.

That being said here was another incident in Germany where at the end of the race the safety car wasn't used when Sutils car got stuck on track, marshals ran across the track to get to the car

Maybe F1 has taken their eye off the ball a bit, in taking too much risk towards the end of races when they don't want to spoil the show by neutralising a race. Possibly need some clearer procedures for themselves, pre race risk assessment for making decisions on recovery without safety car, like speed of the corner, weather conditions, likely condition of track, risk to marshals, maybe they already do this.

This article from July about germany race did say "You are playing with fire Formula One....and you're eventually going to get burned"
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/no-safety-car/

edit: I see the FIA are looking for a report on circumstances of crash
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/11144741/Jules-Bianchi-crash-FIA-launch-urgent-investigation-into-horrific-accident-at-Japanese-Grand-Prix.html

Charlie Whiting, the race director, was asked directly by Jean Todt, the FIA president, to compile a report into the exact circumstances of the collision during the rain-soaked Japanese Grand Prix on Sunday.
...
The report is likely to be completed in the coming days, and certainly before the inaugural Russian Grand Prix in Sochi next weekend, an FIA source said, amid growing criticism of some of the safety measures surrounding the 25-year-old’s acciden

guyfo

i scrolled down through facebook and unwittingly came across a 6s video of it, it is horrific it doesnt need to be up here.

After seeing it i saw a link to extended footage, i was interested to see the lead up. The marshals are clearly waving green flags for a good 10s before Bianchi's car went off the track, while the front-end loader was reversing. Definitely something very wierd about that.

In my opinion no large vehicle should be allowed on track until a safety car is out, it happens 75% of the time anyway.

ScumLord

ScumLord wrote: »

Coulthard would always mention how unsafe he thought it was every time a tractor was on the track. You could almost feel the chill going down his spine whenever he said it in race commentary. It must be the scariest situation for a driver to be presented with. I can think of few things worse than one of those tractors to hit. The back of them is typically a lump of heavy solid steel to counterweight the lifting arm. There's nothing about them that's fragil.

Brundle always hates seeing them. When I told my dad what happened he was disgusted. He's always had a passing interest in F1 but he's like me when he sees the recovery vehicles. It's not just the counter-weight for the crane, they're basically a disaster waiting to happen.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Gravel isnt magic though, you hit one with enough speed and you can skim over it quite easily. Have done so myself in the past. Considering where he went off there isnt too much room from a big gravel trap I dont think it would have made a huge difference.

For F1 tracks and cars though I'd be fine with cars flipping/spinning/rolling. They lose energy that way. The run-offs help with keeping cars running, they do next to nothing for safety when it comes down to it.
And there used to be a gravel trap there, the car would've stayed well to the right of where it ended up hitting the tractor. There's no point splitting tiny hairs for a specific incident. Few years ago at Monaco there was a lucky escape at the new chicane. IMO they still haven't done it properly but until something goes wrong no-one's gonna worry about it.

smellslikeshoes

Deleted User wrote: »

For F1 tracks and cars though I'd be fine with cars flipping/spinning/rolling. They lose energy that way. The run-offs help with keeping cars running, they do next to nothing for safety when it comes down to it.

It's not that important for F1 cars but that is only one weekend a year. The rest of the year Tarmac makes more sense especially so for bikes, that "flipping/spinning/rolling" that gravel traps do ends up being done by a person.

ZiabR

I have also just seen the crash... The impact is shocking, it is a miracle he even survived it. I really hope he is going to be ok, I like Bianchi and would love to see him in a better team.

walshb

It is a nasty crash, but I have seen much more dramatic crashes in motorsport. I don't see why this forum would be censoring it. Crashes happen a lot on car racing. It shows nothing of the driver. Just the car crashing.

Gillespy

Is it a good or bad thing Russia is up so soon? I'm in no mood for it at the moment.

On that track, in that corner, twenty years ago Martin Brundle narrowly escaped the same thing. He is the voice of F1 for our generation. From the beginning of his commentary career he has consistently talked about how dangerous it is. No one listened.

Three scenarios that would scare me the most if I was a driver, something coming into the cockpit, t-boning and running under something like those loaders. Was it Germany or Austria earlier this summer when a stray wheel hit Chillton's car, just missing his head. Same race Kimi flew across the track and Massa did well to avoid having a worse accident. F1 has been living a charmed life.

donspeekinglesh

OSI wrote: »

Was Silverstone. The carcass of Kimi's tyre hit Chiltons roll hoop, not a wheel. But could have been worse.

Much worse. Like Henry Surtees.

_rebelkid

Gillespy wrote: »

Is it a good or bad thing Russia is up so soon? I'm in no mood for it at the moment

It doesn't seem like a GP week. No one really wants to talk about it, but F1 has to move on. It always has, and always will. This is one of the few times we get a feel for what the 70's and 80's were like: exciting race, horrendous crash, and in many cases, a funeral on Wednesday.

Russia has actually gotten off lightly now. Mist people have put it's political implications out of their minds, because right now, it doesn't really matter.

Those who I feel for most are everyone in Marussia. They all need to carry on for Max, Jules, and whoever takes Jules seat in Sochi. This week won't even register with most.

_rebelkid

guyfo wrote: »

After seeing it i saw a link to extended footage, i was interested to see the lead up. The marshals are clearly waving green flags for a good 10s before Bianchi's car went off the track, while the front-end loader was reversing. Definitely something very wierd about that.

The green flag was out after Sutils car. No problem there. Double Waved Yellows were out through apex 1 and 2 of Dunlop, and green on exit.

zombieHanalei

walshb wrote: »

It is a nasty crash, but I have seen much more dramatic crashes in motorsport. I don't see why this forum would be censoring it. Crashes happen a lot on car racing. It shows nothing of the driver. Just the car crashing.

It's not that simple and you know it; just the car? That car contains the driver whose life is currently is in the balance. The clip illustrates why his life is currently in the balance. The clip of the crash is out there for anyone who really wants to see it.

zombieHanalei

_rebelkid wrote: »

It doesn't seem like a GP week. No one really wants to talk about it, but F1 has to move on. It always has, and always will. This is one of the few times we get a feel for what the 70's and 80's were like: exciting race, horrendous crash, and in many cases, a funeral on Wednesday.

Russia has actually gotten off lightly now. Mist people have put it's political implications out of their minds, because right now, it doesn't really matter.

Those who I feel for most are everyone in Marussia. They all need to carry on for Max, Jules, and whoever takes Jules seat in Sochi. This week won't even register with most.

Will someone definitely take Jules' seat? I wouldn't be surprised if they race just the one car this weekend, if they do select someone I imagine it would be Rossi but I really can't see them running a second driver right now, last thing on their minds.

walshb

zombieHanalei wrote: »

It's not that simple and you know it; just the car? That car contains the driver whose life is currently is in the balance. The clip illustrates why his life is currently in the balance. The clip of the crash is out there for anyone who wants to see it.

We all want this young man to pull through. It is terrible. I just think that most decent folks can separate the crash and the person involved. F1 fans, me being one, wanted to see what happened, and how it happened. It was a crash that went completely unnoticed by all the cameras and commentators. I respect the mods decision on this, I just happen to disagree. It's there for people to see online. I see no reason why F1 fans here cannot view it on this thread.

Larbre34

I don't understand anyone being so indifferent to the extremity of the accident.

Personally I don't remember as horrific an impact since the likes of Tom Pryce or Jochen Rindt. Its incredible that Bianchi was not fatally injured immediately, and that no marshall got caught up in it.

mickdw

Larbre34 wrote: »

I don't understand anyone being so indifferent to the extremity of the accident.

Personally I don't remember as horrific an impact since the likes of Tom Pryce or Jochen Rindt. Its incredible that Bianchi was not fatally injured immediately, and that no marshall got caught up in it.

I don't quite get the blackout of the clip. It would appear to me that the accident was clearly not broadcast live as the action elsewhere was being broadcast and fom clearly choose not to broadcast a replay I'd say more for their own selfish reasons as anything else.
There is nothing in the video that is disturbing. I had worse visions in my head before I saw it.
Did bianchi have a roll hoop camera. That would likely tell alot about the impact.

zombieHanalei

walshb wrote: »

We all want this young man to pull through. It is terrible. I just think that most decent folks can separate the crash and the person involved. F1 fans, me being one, wanted to see what happened, and how it happened. It was a crash that went completely unnoticed by all the cameras and commentators. I respect the mods decision on this, I just happen to disagree. It's there for people to see online. I see no reason why F1 fans here cannot view it on this thread.

The problem with that is that they're not really separate, Bianchi was very much a part of it. I've seen much worse crashes in terms of severity in my time where thankfully drivers walk away unscathed or a little shaken at worst, the reason the clips of these crashes are in any way harrowing is due to the people involved in them.

zombieHanalei

Larbre34 wrote: »

I don't understand anyone being so indifferent to the extremity of the accident.

Personally I don't remember as horrific an impact since the likes of Tom Pryce or Jochen Rindt. Its incredible that Bianchi was not fatally injured immediately, and that no marshall got caught up in it.

That was horrible and is the exact reason I avoid footage of crashes where fatalities are involved.:(

Slicemeister

zombieHanalei wrote: »

That was horrible and is the exact reason I avoid footage of crashes where fatalities are involved.:(

I just watched it there. Think ill be doing the same as yourself from now on. Christ.

SnowDrifts

Just with regards to the yellow flags issue... some commentators suggested that perhaps because of the light being poor, that Jules could not see the yellow flags.

But as David Croft pointed out, the drivers also get flashing yellow lights on their dash display and tragically in this case, it appears Jules did not give enough heed to the flags and was simply driving too fast when a recovery vehicle and more importantly, marshals, were on the track side.

walshb

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Just with regards to the yellow flags issue... some commentators suggested that perhaps because of the light being poor, that Jules could not see the yellow flags.

But as David Croft pointed out, the drivers also get flashing yellow lights on their dash display and tragically in this case, it appears Jules did not give enough heed to the flags and was simply driving too fast when a recovery vehicle and more importantly, marshals, were on the track side.

The yellow flags. Do they require drivers to not exceed a certain speed?

SnowDrifts

walshb wrote: »

The yellow flags. Do they require drivers to not exceed a certain speed?

Double yellows meas they must be prepared to stop at any stage. From the FIA...

Yellow flag
Indicates danger, such as a stranded car, ahead. A single waved yellow flag warns drivers to slow down, while two waved yellow flags at the same post means that drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary. Overtaking is prohibited.

walshb

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Double yellows meas they must be prepared to stop at any stage. From the FIA...

Thanks,

So there is no actual speed limit it seems.

zombieHanalei

Did he aquaplane off the track? In which case would it have made any difference whether or not he slowed down?

I was under the impression that the tyres can only clear so much water and if there's too much water you're basically a passenger regardless of speed (unless you cut the speed in half or something).

Kersh

walshb wrote: »

Thanks,

So there is no actual speed limit it seems.

You cant have a blanket waved yellow "speed limit", as every corner is different.

It would cause more incidents.

Double waved yellows rely on the driver to use his common sense with regard to what is appropriate.

ScumLord

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Did he aquaplane off the track? In which case would it have made any difference whether or not he slowed down?

His crash seems a bit different to the car that went before him. The previous car turned around with oversteer whereas Jules seemed to go straight off at speed. You'd have expect if he lost control of the car to arrive at that wall backwards like the car before him.

The video I saw didn't really show what happened before the crash, just the car appearing already off the road.